Please Please.
Command line vs gui tools is such a religious subject and is grossly off
topic for this mailing list.
Could you please take this off list.
-- Aravind
> -----Original Message-----
> From: A mailing list for Enterprise JavaBeans development
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Louth, William (Exchange)
> Sent: Thursday, 20 April 2000 17:46
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: done whining
>
>
> [floyd wrote] I havn't used the GUI's much, but then no serious developer
> should, when you can writ e faster, more efficient shell scripts for
> compiling, etc.
>
> This just says it all for the state of this industry. If the GUI
> tools where
> any good you would not have to be a "SERIOUS DEVELOPER" (you remind me of
> the tool time add more POWER!!!!) and write those faster, more efficient
> shell scripts for compiling. You do know that within the JBuilder
> environment you can compile all the source code faster that any other
> compiler out there. This can also be invoked by the command line
> but why do
> all that context switching it DEGRADES PERFORMANCE. A few qoutes to awaken
> you out of your apparent "engineering" coma:
>
> "Engineers in effect stole the personal computer by building cumbersome,
> illogical development environments that no one other than an
> engineer could
> possibly understand...And the more complex and illogical the
> environment is,
> the more likely engineers will flock to it, not because they intend to
> exclude anyone, but because they really love the challenge of
> complexity.....Engineering schools have been turning out
> programmers who are
> clueless as to the wants, needs, and capabilities of their users
> for way to
> many years. Its time they got their act together......Engineers are not
> necessarily content experts in anything but engineering. We have
> cut off all
> the doctors, lawyers, artists, mechanics, architects, teachers,
> psychologists, historians, philosophers, salespeople, farmers,
> film makers,
> and journalists who are those most likely to break new ground.
> (It is ironic
> this has occurred just as the engineers are enjoying their own renaissance
> in Linux.).....Remember Dan Bricklin, that MBA student back in
> the early PC
> days, who turned the traditional paper-and-pencil spreadsheet he'd been
> taught into an electronic version called VisiCalc? It's people
> like him who
> have been responsible for the real revolution, and, until we
> re-enfranchise
> them, this renaissance is officially dead......Because the whole thing is
> awash in "macho." Just as with Unix, just as with DOS, the more
> confounding
> everything is, the better it is, because it helps separate the
> men from the
> boys-and the girls, who aren't really invited. "
> -Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini
> My apologies regarding the "fib" I did not know you were talking about the
> command line as "tools" that start a process and compile some
> code using of
> course using the javac. Oh I forget you have to make sure to run all those
> other "serious developer" scripts to make sure classpath and environment
> variables are setup. We have people in here spending days writing scripts
> just to get something to work....great progress. Why did we every build
> those graphical components we should just give our users command lines so
> that they will feel like SERIOUS USERS - and an engineering discipline has
> nothing to do with it. Now I do recognize that sometimes to achieve
> something might require combining the outputs and input of many pograms
> together to get a desired result (I have read and enjoyed The Pragmatic
> Programmer) but this should not be the NORM. I have justed turned
> around to
> one of our SERIOUS DBA's and asked him what he thinks about GUI tools and
> scripts. His comments where that he does not like always to use the GUI
> because he wants to know what is going on...he wants to learn all the
> syntax...."the problem with GUI tools is that they hide this
> (complexity?)and allow for the novice users to do damage very quickly
> because of the easy access to options...with the command line you need to
> know the syntax before things get working....this enforces discipline
> (engineering?)..I only use the GUI tools when I have forgoten the
> synatx and
> want to get something done faster" This DBA is a *good* guy who
> has balance
> in the rest of his work, but you cannot change his upbringing.
> I retract the sadistic and replace it with MACHO.
> kind regards,
> William Louth
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Floyd Marinescu [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:46 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: done whining
> >
> > >I do not know what version you are talking about but either you are
> > telling
> > >fibs or you really get a sadistic kick out of "fiddling" with tools.
> > Sounds
> > >like a qualification for an engineer. The Web Logic tools I
> have used are
> > >terrible (my comments relate to the tools not the implementation of the
> > J2EE
> >
> > Well I asure you that I am neither sadistic nor telling
> fibs, nor
> > am I an
> > engineer. Please keep your imature comments to yourself. The truth is
> > that when I say tools, I mean their command line utilities,
> which are rock
> > solid. I havn't used the GUI's much, but then no serious developer
> > should,
> > when you can writ e faster, more efficient shell scripts for compiling,
> > etc.
> >
> > Floyd Marinescu
> >
> >
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