Hi Aravind,
I will end this topic now. But please understand the reason for my initial
post was to substantiate the claims made by one of many users ( people I
have met in the real world) who have had made similar claims about the state
of the ejb market based on their experience with dreadful deployment and
server management tools some vendors are providing.
In my opinion the roll out of this technology (EJB) will be hampered by the
lack of quality in some of these tools. I cannot really give some of the
current crop of ejb servers over to anyone in IT Operations without cringing
and feeling unprofessional and most likely getting them thrown back. I like
to concentrate on writing business logic is this not the whole point of ejb
- focus of writing logic and not the infrastructure. I don not want to spend
my days trying to configure a server through archane interaction methods and
then encounter more problems trying to deploy a simple bean. The timing
seems appropriate considering the current thread regarding a web logic user
trying to deploy something. As I stated in a previous post I have just
recently worked with 5 servers trying to get a simple session beans deployed
and it was a nightmare that turned into sequels and I would consider my self
an experience ejb guy.
I think its funny how last year at JavaOne (I was there) the Javasoft guys
proudly demonstrated the deployment of an ejb solution in many containers
after the fact. I think this year what I would like to see them do is giving
some clean session beans and entity bean on disk and deploy in front of
everbody this jar into all the containers present and then lets see the
state of the ejb market. Without altering any code. If this issue is not
resolved we will lose out to Mirosoft with some developers. Though Mircosoft
has only one architecture/one product why would anybody move to a technology
like ejb that has signficantly different quality and quirks across products.
Its great to learn all those different tools especially since I do not have
the time to read books on proper design...this is much more important would
you agree.
kind regards,
William Louth
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aravind Naidu [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 9:48 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Grossly off topic (was: RE: done whining)
>
> Please Please.
>
> Command line vs gui tools is such a religious subject and is grossly off
> topic for this mailing list.
>
> Could you please take this off list.
>
> -- Aravind
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A mailing list for Enterprise JavaBeans development
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Louth, William (Exchange)
> > Sent: Thursday, 20 April 2000 17:46
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: done whining
> >
> >
> > [floyd wrote] I havn't used the GUI's much, but then no serious
> developer
> > should, when you can writ e faster, more efficient shell scripts for
> > compiling, etc.
> >
> > This just says it all for the state of this industry. If the GUI
> > tools where
> > any good you would not have to be a "SERIOUS DEVELOPER" (you remind me
> of
> > the tool time add more POWER!!!!) and write those faster, more efficient
> > shell scripts for compiling. You do know that within the JBuilder
> > environment you can compile all the source code faster that any other
> > compiler out there. This can also be invoked by the command line
> > but why do
> > all that context switching it DEGRADES PERFORMANCE. A few qoutes to
> awaken
> > you out of your apparent "engineering" coma:
> >
> > "Engineers in effect stole the personal computer by building cumbersome,
> > illogical development environments that no one other than an
> > engineer could
> > possibly understand...And the more complex and illogical the
> > environment is,
> > the more likely engineers will flock to it, not because they intend to
> > exclude anyone, but because they really love the challenge of
> > complexity.....Engineering schools have been turning out
> > programmers who are
> > clueless as to the wants, needs, and capabilities of their users
> > for way to
> > many years. Its time they got their act together......Engineers are not
> > necessarily content experts in anything but engineering. We have
> > cut off all
> > the doctors, lawyers, artists, mechanics, architects, teachers,
> > psychologists, historians, philosophers, salespeople, farmers,
> > film makers,
> > and journalists who are those most likely to break new ground.
> > (It is ironic
> > this has occurred just as the engineers are enjoying their own
> renaissance
> > in Linux.).....Remember Dan Bricklin, that MBA student back in
> > the early PC
> > days, who turned the traditional paper-and-pencil spreadsheet he'd been
> > taught into an electronic version called VisiCalc? It's people
> > like him who
> > have been responsible for the real revolution, and, until we
> > re-enfranchise
> > them, this renaissance is officially dead......Because the whole thing
> is
> > awash in "macho." Just as with Unix, just as with DOS, the more
> > confounding
> > everything is, the better it is, because it helps separate the
> > men from the
> > boys-and the girls, who aren't really invited. "
> > -Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini
> > My apologies regarding the "fib" I did not know you were talking about
> the
> > command line as "tools" that start a process and compile some
> > code using of
> > course using the javac. Oh I forget you have to make sure to run all
> those
> > other "serious developer" scripts to make sure classpath and environment
> > variables are setup. We have people in here spending days writing
> scripts
> > just to get something to work....great progress. Why did we every build
> > those graphical components we should just give our users command lines
> so
> > that they will feel like SERIOUS USERS - and an engineering discipline
> has
> > nothing to do with it. Now I do recognize that sometimes to achieve
> > something might require combining the outputs and input of many pograms
> > together to get a desired result (I have read and enjoyed The Pragmatic
> > Programmer) but this should not be the NORM. I have justed turned
> > around to
> > one of our SERIOUS DBA's and asked him what he thinks about GUI tools
> and
> > scripts. His comments where that he does not like always to use the GUI
> > because he wants to know what is going on...he wants to learn all the
> > syntax...."the problem with GUI tools is that they hide this
> > (complexity?)and allow for the novice users to do damage very quickly
> > because of the easy access to options...with the command line you need
> to
> > know the syntax before things get working....this enforces discipline
> > (engineering?)..I only use the GUI tools when I have forgoten the
> > synatx and
> > want to get something done faster" This DBA is a *good* guy who
> > has balance
> > in the rest of his work, but you cannot change his upbringing.
> > I retract the sadistic and replace it with MACHO.
> > kind regards,
> > William Louth
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Floyd Marinescu [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:46 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: done whining
> > >
> > > >I do not know what version you are talking about but either you are
> > > telling
> > > >fibs or you really get a sadistic kick out of "fiddling" with tools.
> > > Sounds
> > > >like a qualification for an engineer. The Web Logic tools I
> > have used are
> > > >terrible (my comments relate to the tools not the implementation of
> the
> > > J2EE
> > >
> > > Well I asure you that I am neither sadistic nor telling
> > fibs, nor
> > > am I an
> > > engineer. Please keep your imature comments to yourself. The truth
> is
> > > that when I say tools, I mean their command line utilities,
> > which are rock
> > > solid. I havn't used the GUI's much, but then no serious developer
> > > should,
> > > when you can writ e faster, more efficient shell scripts for
> compiling,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > Floyd Marinescu
> > >
> > >
> >
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