Hi Aravind,
While I was sending the email I was reminded of the scene from Platoon where
the leader Tom Beregner? (very badly scared from previous battles -
deployment?) says to the new recruit who just got shot "TAKE THE PAIN, TAKE
THE PAIN."
The next time somebody complains in my team, IT Operations, or on this
newsgroup I will grab them by the collar and say the same words.
kind regards,
Commander William Louth
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Louth, William (Exchange)
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 10:23 AM
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: Grossly off topic (was: RE: done whining)
>
> Hi Aravind,
>
> I will end this topic now. But please understand the reason for my initial
> post was to substantiate the claims made by one of many users ( people I
> have met in the real world) who have had made similar claims about the
> state of the ejb market based on their experience with dreadful deployment
> and server management tools some vendors are providing.
>
> In my opinion the roll out of this technology (EJB) will be hampered by
> the lack of quality in some of these tools. I cannot really give some of
> the current crop of ejb servers over to anyone in IT Operations without
> cringing and feeling unprofessional and most likely getting them thrown
> back. I like to concentrate on writing business logic is this not the
> whole point of ejb - focus of writing logic and not the infrastructure. I
> don not want to spend my days trying to configure a server through archane
> interaction methods and then encounter more problems trying to deploy a
> simple bean. The timing seems appropriate considering the current thread
> regarding a web logic user trying to deploy something. As I stated in a
> previous post I have just recently worked with 5 servers trying to get a
> simple session beans deployed and it was a nightmare that turned into
> sequels and I would consider my self an experience ejb guy.
>
> I think its funny how last year at JavaOne (I was there) the Javasoft guys
> proudly demonstrated the deployment of an ejb solution in many containers
> after the fact. I think this year what I would like to see them do is
> giving some clean session beans and entity bean on disk and deploy in
> front of everbody this jar into all the containers present and then lets
> see the state of the ejb market. Without altering any code. If this issue
> is not resolved we will lose out to Mirosoft with some developers. Though
> Mircosoft has only one architecture/one product why would anybody move to
> a technology like ejb that has signficantly different quality and quirks
> across products. Its great to learn all those different tools especially
> since I do not have the time to read books on proper design...this is much
> more important would you agree.
>
> kind regards,
>
> William Louth
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Aravind Naidu [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 9:48 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Grossly off topic (was: RE: done whining)
>
> Please Please.
>
> Command line vs gui tools is such a religious subject and is grossly off
> topic for this mailing list.
>
> Could you please take this off list.
>
> -- Aravind
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: A mailing list for Enterprise JavaBeans development
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Louth, William (Exchange)
> > Sent: Thursday, 20 April 2000 17:46
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: done whining
> >
> >
> > [floyd wrote] I havn't used the GUI's much, but then no serious
> developer
> > should, when you can writ e faster, more efficient shell scripts for
> > compiling, etc.
> >
> > This just says it all for the state of this industry. If the GUI
> > tools where
> > any good you would not have to be a "SERIOUS DEVELOPER" (you remind me
> of
> > the tool time add more POWER!!!!) and write those faster, more efficient
> > shell scripts for compiling. You do know that within the JBuilder
> > environment you can compile all the source code faster that any other
> > compiler out there. This can also be invoked by the command line
> > but why do
> > all that context switching it DEGRADES PERFORMANCE. A few qoutes to
> awaken
> > you out of your apparent "engineering" coma:
> >
> > "Engineers in effect stole the personal computer by building cumbersome,
> > illogical development environments that no one other than an
> > engineer could
> > possibly understand...And the more complex and illogical the
> > environment is,
> > the more likely engineers will flock to it, not because they intend to
> > exclude anyone, but because they really love the challenge of
> > complexity.....Engineering schools have been turning out
> > programmers who are
> > clueless as to the wants, needs, and capabilities of their users
> > for way to
> > many years. Its time they got their act together......Engineers are not
> > necessarily content experts in anything but engineering. We have
> > cut off all
> > the doctors, lawyers, artists, mechanics, architects, teachers,
> > psychologists, historians, philosophers, salespeople, farmers,
> > film makers,
> > and journalists who are those most likely to break new ground.
> > (It is ironic
> > this has occurred just as the engineers are enjoying their own
> renaissance
> > in Linux.).....Remember Dan Bricklin, that MBA student back in
> > the early PC
> > days, who turned the traditional paper-and-pencil spreadsheet he'd been
> > taught into an electronic version called VisiCalc? It's people
> > like him who
> > have been responsible for the real revolution, and, until we
> > re-enfranchise
> > them, this renaissance is officially dead......Because the whole thing
> is
> > awash in "macho." Just as with Unix, just as with DOS, the more
> > confounding
> > everything is, the better it is, because it helps separate the
> > men from the
> > boys-and the girls, who aren't really invited. "
> > -Bruce "Tog" Tognazzini
> > My apologies regarding the "fib" I did not know you were talking about
> the
> > command line as "tools" that start a process and compile some
> > code using of
> > course using the javac. Oh I forget you have to make sure to run all
> those
> > other "serious developer" scripts to make sure classpath and environment
> > variables are setup. We have people in here spending days writing
> scripts
> > just to get something to work....great progress. Why did we every build
> > those graphical components we should just give our users command lines
> so
> > that they will feel like SERIOUS USERS - and an engineering discipline
> has
> > nothing to do with it. Now I do recognize that sometimes to achieve
> > something might require combining the outputs and input of many pograms
> > together to get a desired result (I have read and enjoyed The Pragmatic
> > Programmer) but this should not be the NORM. I have justed turned
> > around to
> > one of our SERIOUS DBA's and asked him what he thinks about GUI tools
> and
> > scripts. His comments where that he does not like always to use the GUI
> > because he wants to know what is going on...he wants to learn all the
> > syntax...."the problem with GUI tools is that they hide this
> > (complexity?)and allow for the novice users to do damage very quickly
> > because of the easy access to options...with the command line you need
> to
> > know the syntax before things get working....this enforces discipline
> > (engineering?)..I only use the GUI tools when I have forgoten the
> > synatx and
> > want to get something done faster" This DBA is a *good* guy who
> > has balance
> > in the rest of his work, but you cannot change his upbringing.
> > I retract the sadistic and replace it with MACHO.
> > kind regards,
> > William Louth
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Floyd Marinescu [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2000 8:46 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: done whining
> > >
> > > >I do not know what version you are talking about but either you are
> > > telling
> > > >fibs or you really get a sadistic kick out of "fiddling" with tools.
> > > Sounds
> > > >like a qualification for an engineer. The Web Logic tools I
> > have used are
> > > >terrible (my comments relate to the tools not the implementation of
> the
> > > J2EE
> > >
> > > Well I asure you that I am neither sadistic nor telling
> > fibs, nor
> > > am I an
> > > engineer. Please keep your imature comments to yourself. The truth
> is
> > > that when I say tools, I mean their command line utilities,
> > which are rock
> > > solid. I havn't used the GUI's much, but then no serious developer
> > > should,
> > > when you can writ e faster, more efficient shell scripts for
> compiling,
> > > etc.
> > >
> > > Floyd Marinescu
> > >
> > >
> >
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> >
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