At 07:20 PM 11/16/2005, Paul Kislanko wrote: > > If you have a preference, why are you delegating to a proxy? > >Why have proxies? I guess you're saying it's a dumb idea.
No, I think he was saying that if you prefer a particular vote (which is what you implied), then why don't you just cast that vote yourself? I.e., *participate* and vote yourself. I've encountered some people who think that proxy voting is absentee voting. Someone comes to a meeting which discusses a subject and then holds a vote, and a friend of someone who is absent says, "John couldn't come today, but he votes against the proposal." And, quite rightly, everyone gets upset because John wasn't there to hear the arguments, there was no opportunity for others to change John's mind through cogent arguments, but John's vote gets counted anyway. I almost joined a cohousing community which prohibited proxy voting, but when I asked, what they had really prohibited was absentee voting, instructed voting. The whole point of proxy voting is that the proxy is *not* instructed. Certainly the giver of a proxy may discuss issues with the proxy in advance, but the proxy must remain free to make decisions on the spot. The remedy of the voter is to review the proxy's votes and to vote directly if the proxy disagrees. (I'd have such a process in place in public organizations, this is one of the kinds of things that are possible when voting is not secret.) Technically, if a motion passes and my vote was effectively cast for it following the proxy's vote, I voted for the motion, and under Robert's Rules, this would give me the right to move for reconsideration.... >If the idea of delegable proxy is to have folks with no preferences allow a >proxy to vote their ballots, then only folks with no preferences must choose >from available proxies. No, not at all. I do think that proxy has been misunderstood. (Delegable proxy is just an extension of the proxy function.) The idea of the proxy is for the proxy to vote for you when you cannot or do not. The reason you do not vote might be one of many. If you have a preference, though, in a direct democracy, you might simply vote yourself, assuming that the preference is strong enough to get you to the meeting or to the polls or on-line to review the debate and to vote. > Now, that would be equivelant to their votes being >replaced by random ballots, since if they have no preferences, their choice >of a proxy can be random. Garbage in, garbage out. >One of us doesn't understand delegable proxy. I don't think you did. Delegable proxy is just proxy voting plus automatic delegability. The delegability has not been much involved with this immediate exchange, it might as well have been simple proxy voting. First of all, much of this discussion has been abstract. If there were an example being discussed, it would not be so confusing. Are we talking about delegable proxy as an election method (which it can be), or are we talking about it as a method of forming a deliberative body which addresses issues and votes on them? >I doubt any voter asked to change from plurality to delegable proxy would do >so based upon the arguments made by "experts" on the subject. And this seals it that you are confused. Delegable Proxy and Plurality are not opposites. Delegable Proxy is a method by which voters can be represented in, among other things, a voting process. Plurality is a method of determining a single winner by compiling votes. As to "experts" on delegable proxy, first of all, what has been written here would apply to proxy voting without delegability just as much as with delegability. Delegability merely adds scalability. Proxy voting is ancient and well-understood, or should be. (It is actually a common-law right except where expressly prohibited, whenever property rights are involved, which is why I was not so popular with that cohousing community when I pointed out that they might not be able to *prevent* proxy voting should someone choose to force the point.) Delegable proxy, however, was only invented quite recently. I've been thinking about it for over twenty years, but I only started writing it down in the last five years or so, at the most, and started seriously promoting it in 2002. Others independently invented it at around the same time. There are currently no functioning applications, and only a tiny bit of experience (with Demox in Sweden). There are no experts, just a few people interested in it. ---- election-methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
