On Dec 24, 2007, at 1:16 , rob brown wrote:
On Dec 23, 2007 2:00 PM, Juho <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Works with humans too. Three friends living in different places
might agree to meet at a place that has equal distance to all three
homes. Or they might select a place that minimizes the sum of the
distances (maybe they will share the travelling costs).
What you are describing is very different from what happens with
eusocial animals.
A situation where a small number of people can work things out, and
where reciprocity plays into it (i.e . "you got your way last
time", etc) is completely, totally different from the type of
situation where voting is needed, such as a large scale election
where most of the voters don't know one another.
I don't think be hives and human families are that different. Human
families are smaller. Humans have "hives" of 50'000 individuals,
called cities, and in such environment humans tend to become less co-
operative and altruistic than bees, but that is only a difference in
size. Bee hives have members that are not reproductive, which gives
them more incentive to wok for the common interest. I didn't include
the time component ("you got your way last time") in my examples.
That component (proportionality in time) is obviously very weak among
the bees.
Humans can also make "voting scale" decisions in bee/utility/rating
style. For example http://www.imdb.com/ uses user ratings and they
work ok. The key of course is to use such methods in areas that are
not competitive. Polls are one type of (often) non-competitive
elections.
I think the basic rules are the same but the scale and style are
different.
What you describe isn't eusociality, which is the complete lack of
self interest found in animals that don't reproduce directly. A
100% rational, self-interested person may wish to allow someone
else to get their way when preference strengths differ, with the
expectation that it will be reciprocated when the preference
strengths are reversed. But a large election has no mechanism for
reciprocity.
Ok, also reciprocity is a concept that bees probably don't use much
(due to limited conceptual thinking capabilities).
The non-reproducing worker bees are probably not completely non-
selfish. I'm sure they push the next worker bee aside when they want
to perform some important task within the hive. We could also say
that humans are non-selfish and their only task is to work for their
genes and to pass them on to the next generations (pushing other
human beings aside when doing so can be said to be just for the
benefit of the genes). My examples are quite wide spread, but the
idea is just to demonstrate that although bees have some special
characteristics, that need not put them into some totally different
behavioural category.
I could imagine a voting system that might address this issue for
larger groups, but it isn't Range.
One could have elections that take into account e.g. proportionality
in time (that could be called one kind of reciprocity) (favour a
republican after a democrat, favour other pizzas after pepperoni).
Range is useful in some cases too, e.g. in "poll like" elections.
Parents could agree to watch a Disney movie with their child
although they might like a war movie more themselves.
Parents and children are, from a Darwinian perspective pretty much
the same as eusocial animals, motivation-wise. The children's
interests are almost completely aligned with the interests of the
parents, since the children are the vector for the parents getting
their genes into future generations. In my view, all motivation can
be traced back to the attempt to get genes into future generations.
I wrote above "in favour of the genes", but I would say only that
genes are one way to explain motivations and the way the world works,
not necessarily the only correct one (maybe you didn't say so either).
Juho
But in politics / competitive situations rules of course tend to be
different. And the election methods should be chosen accordingly.
I'm with you there.
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