Dear Fred, > That is specious. The phrases "in my terminology" and "in my terms" > may have significance for you but they do not make your definition > 'technically' correct. I'm attaching definitions of the terms > 'vote', 'voter' and 'ballot', below, for whatever value you may find > in them.
In order to avoid confusion, I may have to substitute "actual voter", meaning one who is actually voting. OK. > The assertion that the value of a vote is 'exactly zero' is equally > distressing. It is based on the assumption that changing the input > to a completed process will not alter the result of the process. > The arguments in support of the assumption are abstruse. Some misunderstanding, because I did not assume that. Theory claims a value of zero and I measure a value of zero. Again, I believe you mean the assumptions of experimental science in general, not my own in particular. > You correctly assert that, in a democracy, an electoral process that > provides no means for public participation in the decision making > process is flawed. The open question is how to resolve that issue. > We would do well to apply our intellect to that thorny problem. You will agree it usually helps to identify the cause of the problem. Why the lack of public participation? I ask a similar question here: http://www.nycga.net/groups/vision-and-goals/forum/topic/what-is-the-cause-of-these-problems/ -- Michael Allan Toronto, +1 416-699-9528 http://zelea.com/ Fred Gohlke wrote: > Good Afternoon, Michael > > As I was studying your October 29th 'expanded outline' so I could > comment on it, I read your later responses. This led to an extensive > review of the posts regarding "A structural fault in society owing to a > design flaw in the electoral system" going back to the first of October. > The result was unsatisfactory. > > For example, on October 23rd, I wrote: > > > It appears the (i.e., your) point is that, at the moment a > > ballot is cast, the person that casts the ballot ceases to be > > a voter. That is only true as to future issues which may come > > before the voters. It is untrue as to the issue on which the > > ballot was cast. > > On October 29th, you responded: > > > Technically it is always true I think, or at least in my > > terminology. The elector is technically a "voter" while in > > possession of the ballot (in the act of voting) and not at > > other times. The distinction is crucial to the thesis, because > > it can be difficult to behave like a voter and engage in social > > decision making without the support of a concrete ballot > > (abstract voting). > > > > You are speaking of an "elector" in my terms (one who has a > > right to vote) and not an actual voter. > > That is specious. The phrases "in my terminology" and "in my terms" may > have significance for you but they do not make your definition > 'technically' correct. I'm attaching definitions of the terms 'vote', > 'voter' and 'ballot', below, for whatever value you may find in them. > > The assertion that the value of a vote is 'exactly zero' is equally > distressing. It is based on the assumption that changing the input to a > completed process will not alter the result of the process. The > arguments in support of the assumption are abstruse. > > The discouraging part of this dissension (for me) is that you opened > discussion of a vital issue, one that is seldom broached on this site. > It is a matter that vitally concerns us all, and anything that detracts > from investigation of the primary point is distressing. > > You correctly assert that, in a democracy, an electoral process that > provides no means for public participation in the decision making > process is flawed. The open question is how to resolve that issue. We > would do well to apply our intellect to that thorny problem. > > Fred Gohlke > > > American English and British English Definitions provided by > Macmillan Dictionary: > > > Quick definitions from Macmillan (vote) > > verb > > to formally express an opinion by choosing between two or > more issues, people, etc. > > to show your choice of a person or an issue in an election > > to choose something or someone to win a prize or an honor > > to suggest what you would like to do in a particular situation > > noun > > the formal expression of a choice between two or more issues, > people, etc. > > an occasion when people formally choose between two or more > issues, people, etc. in an election > > the total number of votes made in an election > > > Quick definitions from Macmillan (voter) > > noun > > someone who votes in an election > > > Quick definitions from Macmillan (ballot) > > noun > > the process of voting secretly to choose a candidate in an > election or express an opinion about an issue > > the total number of votes recorded in an election > > a piece of paper that you write your vote on > > verb > > to ask people to vote in order to decide an issue > > to vote in order to decide an issue > > > Definitions provided by WordNet: > > Quick definitions from WordNet (vote) > > > noun: the opinion of a group as determined by voting ("They > put the question to a vote") > > noun: a choice that is made by voting ("There were only 17 > votes in favor of the motion") > > noun: the total number of votes cast ("They are hoping for a > large vote") > > noun: a body of voters who have the same interests ("He failed > to get the Black vote") > > noun: a legal right guaranteed by the 15th amendment to the US > constitution; guaranteed to women by the 19th amendment > ("American women got the vote in 1920") > > verb: express one's preference for a candidate or for a > measure or resolution; cast a vote ("He voted for the > motion") > > verb: bring into existence or make available by vote ("They > voted aid for the underdeveloped countries in Asia") > > verb: express a choice or opinion ("I vote that we all go > home") > > verb: express one's choice or preference by vote ("Vote the > Democratic ticket") > > verb: be guided by in voting ("Vote one's conscience") > > > Quick definitions from WordNet (voter) > > > noun: a citizen who has a legal right to vote > > > Quick definitions from WordNet (ballot) > > > noun: a document listing the alternatives that is used in > voting > > noun: a choice that is made by voting > > > verb: vote by ballot ("The voters were balloting in this > state") ---- Election-Methods mailing list - see http://electorama.com/em for list info
