On 30.9.2012, at 16.06, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:

> On 09/30/2012 11:47 AM, Juho Laatu wrote:
>> On 30.9.2012, at 11.56, Kristofer Munsterhjelm wrote:
>> 
>>> In practice, that means: is cloneproof, passes independence of as
>>> much as possible (independence of Smith-dominated alternatives,
>>> say), and is monotone.
>> 
>> These criteria could be one set of definitions of a good (sincere)
>> winner. I usually do not assume the first two ones since there may be
>> good (sincere) winners also outside those criteria. Monotonicity is
>> maybe more natural in the Condorcet category.
> 
> There might be, but then again, there may also be better outcomes when the 
> method does not get confused by vote-splitting problems (e.g. the Korean 
> election).

Bad clone related problems must be corrected, but different criteria may 
conflict, and one may get similar votes and matrices with or without real 
clones (= politically similar candidates). Therefore one may also meet the 
clone related criteria "well enough" in order to respect better some other 
requirements.

> In my opinion, even if that works, it won't have the desired effect. 
> Australia shows this.

Maybe Austratlia shows that things could fail. But one could be also lucky, and 
Australia is a quite specific case. One must try and hope that things will work 
out. I believe most countries have some problems in their voting system, and 
usually they could be corrected, but they are not since there is not enough 
"political will".

> So the difference between the third and first category is, I think, that the 
> third is about what's good for society in general, while the first is about 
> what makes the voters (and candidates) accept the outcome. The more democracy 
> is about having the losers accept that they've lost, the more important the 
> first category becomes with respect to the third, for instance.

Maybe one more first category related explanation behind promoting IRV is that 
the serial elimination rule looks like a fair fight (where the weakest fighters 
are fairly kicked out of the fight) to many voters :-).

Juho



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