Hi Bill, I agree with Ken. I am not sure the event exists long enough for the SA to make an accurate amplitude reading.
On another point, troubleshooting with an SA is not generally nearly as useful as with a good scope since ultimately it is a voltage or current in the time domain that causes problems and frequency related problems, such as resonance, are easily spotted on a scope. Also SA inputs are very tender and easy to damage. Just do not use a scope voltage probe around ESD. They are great ESD event detectors. I usually use current probes as well as shielded and unshielded square loops (the loops to measure voltages by Mdi/dt). Sometimes a passive balanced differential probe is useful such as the BCP-2 from Fischer Custom Communications. There are many many measurement examples of these types on my website, http://www.dsmith.org Doug Bill Owsley wrote: The may some real new SA that captures that whole spectrum at once, but the ones I'm familiar with sample at a point (including RBW) at a moment in time. This moment of time is somewhat slower than the ESD event. So in order to capture the whole spectrum using the ESD generator in continuous rapid fire mode (faster than the SA pulse handicap) and then scanning slowly so that for every sample point, a number of ESD events happen, one could build up a spectrum of the ESD event/s. Now to go try it... It's useful for a device I test on occasion and it runs pulses in the 10's of kHz. - Bill Indecision may or may not be the problem. --- On Mon, 6/15/09, Ken Wyatt <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> wrote: From: Ken Wyatt <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] ESD verification To: "Ralph McDiarmid" <[email protected]> <mailto:[email protected]> Cc: [email protected] Date: Monday, June 15, 2009, 10:34 AM HI Ralph, Nice "out of the box" thinking, however, I suspect spectrum analyzers in those earlier days would have had issues in capturing all components of the frequency spectrum of a pulsed signal. Just a guess, though. Regards, Ken ---------------------------------------------- Wyatt Technical Services, LLC 56 Aspen Dr. Woodland Park, CO 80863 Email: [email protected] <http://us mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> Web: www.emc-seminars.com LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/kennethwyatt (719) 310-5418 On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:52 AM, Ralph McDiarmid wrote: > Could the ESD discrete signal be verified indirectly from measurement in > the frequency domain with a spectrum analyzer before the advent of GHz > oscilloscopes? > > > Ralph McDiarmid, AScT > Compliance Engineering Group > Xantrex Technology Inc > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] <http://us.m 01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected] <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> ] On Behalf Of John > Woodgate > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM > To: [email protected] <http://us.mc0 g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > Subject: Re: EN61326-1: 2006 > > In message > <[email protected] <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/comp se?to=de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d04aa7...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com> >, dated > Mon, 8 Jun 2009, Ralph McDiarmid <[email protected] <http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > writes: > >> It would at least bring it into agreement with the requirements of both > >> the residential and industrial 61000 generic immunity standards. (4kV >> contact, 8kV air) > > But, as Doug says, that is not a sufficient argument. Unless 4kV air can > > be shown not to be adequate to prevent an unacceptable number of field > failures due to ESD damage, it should not be raised to 8 kV. > > There may be an explanation. We know that in cold northern countries, > humidity can fall to 20% and below and a charged human body can reach a > potential in the region of 15 kV. But this is rare, and 8 kV is > considered sufficiently severe. Note 'considered': the only proof is > 'epidemiological' - how many field failures occur? > > I suspect that most equipment to which IEC 61326 applies AND is exposed > to ESD is used in air-conditioned spaces where humidity is kept at > medium values and ESD voltages do not reach extreme values. > > There is a further issue. Until recently, the methods of verifying the > output of ESD test hand-pieces were subject to considerable doubt and > much controversy. To check the output waveform, oscilloscope bandwidths > of at least 6 GHz are required, and these were very rare. So a lot of > historical data were collected using test equipment whose > characteristics are subject to significant uncertainty. > --OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk > Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. > John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your > e-mail to <[email protected] <http:/ us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected] http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <h tp://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <[email protected] <htt ://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > David Heald: <[email protected] <http //us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society > emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your > e-mail to <[email protected] <http:/ us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that > URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected] http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <h tp://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <[email protected] <htt ://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > David Heald: <[email protected] <http //us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected] <http://us.mc01g.mai .yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc > Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <[email protected] http://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <h tp://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <[email protected] <htt ://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > > David Heald: <[email protected] <http //us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected] <http://us.mc01g.mai .yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected] <h tp://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > Mike Cantwell <[email protected] <htt ://us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected] <http: /us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > David Heald: <[email protected] <http:/ us.mc01g.mail.yahoo.com/mc/[email protected]> > - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> -- ___ _ Doug Smith \ / ) P.O. Box 1457 ========= Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457 _ / \ / \ _ TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799 / /\ \ ] / /\ \ Mobile: 408-858-4528 | q-----( ) | o | Email: [email protected] \ _ / ] \ _ / Website: http://www.dsmith.org - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]>
