Whoa Anthony, back up a little.
Test reports can contain what the heck a lab likes, as long as interpretations are indicated as such. These words extracted from ISO 17025, the most common test document: Clause 5.10 covers reporting the results: Clause 5.10.1 The results shall be reported, usually in a test report or a calibration certificate (see Note 1), and shall include all the information requested by the customer and necessary for the interpretation of the test or calibration results and all information required by the method used. So, Point 1, if the customer asks for an interpretation, then the standard says the lab provides it. Clause 5.10.3.1 d) where appropriate and needed, opinions and interpretations ( See 5.10.5 ) Clause 5.10.5 When opinions and interpretations are included, the laboratory shall document the basis upon which the opinions and interpretations have been made. Opinions and interpretations shall be clearly marked as such in a test report. Point 2 ) Here a lab is told how to deal with opinions and interpretations. As for Assessing bodies forbidding inclusion of opinions and interpretations, well, here is the section from the NVLAP checklist dealing with 5.10.5: 5.10.5 Opinions and interpretations When opinions and interpretations are included, the laboratory shall document the basis upon which the opinions and interpretations have been made. Opinions and interpretations shall be clearly marked as such in a test report. NOTE 1 Opinions and interpretations should not be confused with inspections and product certifications as intended in ISO/IEC 17020 and ISO/IEC Guide 65. NOTE 2 Opinions and interpretations included in a test report may comprise, but not be limited to, the following: i) an opinion on the statement of compliance/noncompliance of the results with requirements; ii) fulfillment of contractual requirements; iii) recommendations on how to use the results; iv) guidance to be used for improvements. NOTE 3 In many cases it might be appropriate to communicate the opinions and interpretations by direct dialogue with the customer. Such dialogue should be written down. Perhaps a change in assessing body is in order? As for an organisation doing both design and test, I am all for it. In my visits to manufacturers test facilities from Japan to Israel, I have been most impressed by the majority that go well above and beyond what any 3rd party lab would do in testing product. They simply cannot ship millions of widgets every month with the threat of a recall from poor evaluation of their widget. My $ worth. Derek. -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Thomson <[email protected]> To: EMC-PSTC <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Mar 20, 2013 5:11 am Subject: Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report "So our EMC reports do “freeze” a state of the product, by listing all relevant (in our opinion) construction details." Test Reports from independent test laboratories should NEVER, NEVER EVER, incorporate subjective opinions. It is your duty to identify the EUT by means of serial numbers, h/w & s/w revisions, photographs, objective descriptions, declarations of the build from the client etc., and describe the test configuration and set-up by means of diagrams, photographs, operating instructions etc. In fact, accreditation bodies expressly prohibit independent laboratories from expressing opinions. Assistance in identifying EMC critical design elements would be a consultancy service and could only be conducted in collaboration with the design authority. That same consultancy organisation cannot produce an independent test report. T ----- Original Message ----- From: ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen Sent: 03/20/13 08:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report EMC testing is a service to our clients, so as to allow them to sign their Declaration of Compliance/conformance. The EMC test report needs to enable our customer to efficiently and accurately create compliant products. A problem with many small and medium enterprises is that they actually do not know what they exactly offered for testing. BOMs with almost unspecified parts are common. Mechanical drawings of the enclosure are often missing and I have yet to see a customer provide me with a professional grounding diagram for EMC. (Listing materials, paintings and EMC fixtures for example) In fact most customers do NOT know what parts of the equipment are relevant for EMC. How ever can they produce compliant products ? So our EMC reports do “freeze” a state of the product, by listing all relevant (in our opinion) construction details. Starting with a diagram part list, pcb lay-outs and technical drawing, component brands and grounding details are included. Software version is recorded as well as hardware revisions. Drawings are dated and recorded. For those customers that need to provide the test reports to their customer, we issue a “results-only version” on request. Too often this has proven to be useful, as our customer can fall back of the details in the test report to detect the cause of a sudden failure. Regards, Ing. Gert Gremmen, BSc [email protected] www.cetest.nl Kiotoweg 363 3047 BG Rotterdam T 31(0)104152426 F 31(0)104154953 Before printing, think about the environment. Van: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Namens Bill Owsley Verzonden: Friday, March 15, 2013 5:34 AM Aan: Scott Xe; Anthony Thomson; [email protected] Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report Indeed !!! and that is why EMC Design Engineers and Consultants continue to be employed. We know the "magic" and how to deploy it. A few are better than most the others, but that is the challenge, finding the ones that know the proper incantations to invoke for a first time pass, or at least a second pass. Test labs just tell you that the product has failed the requirements, and provide some data. The engineering folks have to guess from that data just what in the hell has happened. If they had a problem in the first place, means that they are not qualified to figure out what has failed. Call in a consultant... he is most likely a retired Test Engineer and has lot of experience with ferrites and copper tape. But if that gets you under the limits - great!! Or call in an EMC Design Engineer. They fix things on the pcb's and schematics. It's not cheap, but it sure goes right to the source of problem and also fixes SI, signal integrity. Your design can start at 10 MHz and ship at 200MHz with no changes to the layout. The same applies today with the proper scaling as mentioned by Dr, Howard Johnson of the "black magic" books. From: Scott Xe <[email protected]> To: Anthony Thomson <[email protected]>; [email protected] Sent: Thursday, March 14, 2013 9:25 AM Subject: Re: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report Thanks for all responded! For large companies, they may have test facilities and knowledgeable engineers to vary their products before sending to 3rd part lab for verification/certification. For medium and small companies, they have no test facilities and the engineers who may not have got the professional training in EMC requirements rely on the 3rd party lab for spotting out the failures and the advice for problem fixing. Dealing with such companies would be at risk as the test report may not help them too much. Regards, Scott On 14/3/13 4:40 PM, "Anthony Thomson" <[email protected]> wrote: Scott, EMC compliance is the sole responsibility of the manufacturer (or whoever places the product on the market). It’s entirely up to you how you control ongoing compliance (or not). T ----- Original Message ----- From: Scott Xe Sent: 03/13/13 03:48 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PSES] Critical component in EMC report It is common not to have critical component list in EMC reports issued from 3rd party laboratories. Those information are essential to track if the correct parts to be used in mass production. What is main reason not to have it as a common practice in the field? Thanks and regards, Scott - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher <[email protected]> David Heald <[email protected]> - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <[email protected]> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <[email protected]> Mike Cantwell <[email protected]> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <[email protected]> David Heald: <[email protected]>
