The NEC does allow 100% rated breakers, as long as they are Listed for this purpose and used inside a proper enclosure (such that operation is not outside the Listing test parameters). More information here <http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/Insulated%20Case%20Circuit%20Breakers/0600DB0101.pdf>. In general, however, this has to be planned before initial construction as the downstream wiring must be sized appropriately.
On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 10:09 AM, Ralph McDiarmid < ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com> wrote: > Probably reasonable to assume that very few household loads are drawing > their rated current continuously. Those few that are, likely don’t > aggregate over 12A on a 15A ‘branch’ circuit. It seems to me that the NEC > code writing panel made a big deal out of nothing, but I’d like to read a > justification. Someone must have written one. > > If UL Lists a circuit breaker at 15A, then there are no ‘conditions of > acceptability’ like those for a Recognized component, and so 15A should be > just fine for > 3hours, otherwise the marking is misleading at best. > > Ralph McDiarmid > Product Compliance > Engineering > Solar Business > Schneider Electric > > > From: Ted Eckert [mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:35 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details > > The rating on a North American circuit breaker is not its trip current. It > is the rated current. UL 489 requires circuit breakers to hold at their > rated current. In fact, at normal room temperatures, UL 489 Listed circuit > breaker should hold at 110% of its rated current. The calibrations are done > at 135% and 200% of the rated current. Because the circuit breakers are > packed together in a panel, there is heating from adjacent breakers. It is > assumed that a breaker is typically operating at an elevated temperature. > The breakers typically have both magnetic and thermal trip mechanisms and > there is some compensation for the heating in the breaker panel. A UL 489 > Listed breaker used in isolation would actually hold at 135% of its rated > load for a surprisingly long time. The trip curve for a North American > breaker may be different from that of a European breaker. However, I think > it is misleading to say that a North American breaker or fuse will trip at > a lower current. > > Let me return to Pete Perkin’s original query. North American power strips > Listed to UL 1363 are considered temporary relocatable power taps. They are > allowed to be listed for the full current of their plug. A power strip with > a 15 A plug can be rated 15 A and does not need to be derated to 12 A. They > must be “relocatable” and are not allowed to be permanently affixed to > structure. A permanently affixed power strip, such as one used in a rack in > a datacenter, can’t be listed to UL 1363. A datacenter power strip will > typically be UL 60950-1 or UL 62368-1 Listed and will be rated 12 A. > > NFPA 70, the U.S. National Electrical Code, only allows the continuous > load to be 80% of the rating of the circuit. However, “continuous” is > defined as 3 hours or more. A temporary load can be rated for the full > current of the circuit. Thus a hairdryer with a 15 A plug is allowed to > pull 15 A, 1800 W. The assumption is that the hairdryer will not be used > for more than 3 hours continuously. > > Because a UL 1363 Listed power strip is considered a temporary power tap, > it is considered an extension of the branch circuit and carries the branch > circuit’s rating. A datacenter power strip is a load device and is fixed in > place. That makes it a permanent load. It is known to be used for more than > 3 hours and thus is rated for 80% of the branch rating. (Don’t complain to > me about these rules. I didn’t make them up.) In the U.S., a UL 1363 > “power strip” can only be provided with blind keyhole slots or spring > clips. It isn’t permitted to have holes allowing it to be screwed or bolted > in place. > > To cause further confusion, there are also two types of circuit breakers. > UL 489 Listed Molded Case Circuit Breakers are “branch breakers”. UL 1363 > Listed power strips with more than three outlets must have a “Supplementary > Overcurrent Protector” which will be UL 1077 Recognized. The UL 1077 > overcurrent protector is purely a thermal device and is intended to protect > from low overloads that a magnetic UL 489 breaker may allow. > > Long ago, you could occasionally find UL 1363 Recognized power strips for > rack mounting. They carried the full rating of the plug but could be > mounted into an equipment rack. They were Recognized instead of Listed. One > of the Conditions of Use was that they could only be used in racks on > wheels, thereby making them relocatable, maintaining their status as a > temporary power tap. This was a convoluted method of allowing rack mounted > power strips, and it was used only as a stopgap measure until testing to UL > 60950-1 became common for rack mounted power distribution. > > Ted Eckert > Microsoft Corporation > > The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of > my employer. > > From: John Allen [mailto:000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM > To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details > > 16A/250V is the normal running current/voltage rating of general purpose > Schuko sockets and plugs in Europe (and sometimes elsewhere). > > One of the main reasons for the differences in allowable currents from > mains outlets (and thus from connected power strips) is the differences in > the characteristics of the protective breakers and fuses between those used > in Europe and those used in N.America. > > General purpose European /IEC breakers/fuses are rated for continuous > running at the marked rating, whereas on the equivalent N.American > breakers/fuses the marked rating is the trip/blow-current rating – thus > (all other things being “equal”) the protective device for a circuit > protected by one of the latter will trip/blow at a lower current than one > protected by a European/IEC device. > > This essential difference can and does (encountered it many time ☹) cause > considerable issues and confusion for designers when specifying the > protective devices for equipment which is to be used in both N.America and > Europe (and obviously elsewhere) – then, of course, there is the related > issue that the relevant national certifications for such protective devices > are not (with the exception of a very few devices certified on both > continents) recognized on the “opposite” sides of “The Pond”. > > John Allen > W. London, UK > > From: Don Gies [mailto:ddg...@verizon.net] > Sent: 15 September 2017 13:16 > To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details > > Pete, > > Before last year’s TC108 meeting in Frankfurt, I purchased a German > Schucko European Power Strip from Amazon. It had 3 AC receptacles and 2 > USB outputs. > Its ratings are: > “Maximum Charge: 3680W,16A/250V~ ” > > Don Gies > mailto:ddg...@verizon.net > (732) 207-7828 > > From: John Allen [mailto:000009cc677f395b-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 4:32 AM > To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details > > Unlike the US/Canada (etc), there is no derating factor for UK mains wall > outlets. A 13A wall outlet can be loaded at 13A, and a twin/duplex 13A > outlet can be loaded at 13A per outlet because the “diversity factor” > principle is applied, i.e. it is highly unlikely in practice that both 13A > outlets will be actually be fully loaded at the same time! > > Murphy’s Law may however apply at times in that both outlets could > simultaneously be loaded at 13A – and so it is to be hoped that the wall > outlet in question is on a UK “ring main” circuit protected by a 32A > breaker, and not a spur/radial/branch circuit protected by a 16A breaker! > > For a power strip plugged into one of those outlets, there is a > (generally, as John W said) a 13A fuse in the plug, and so the max > cumulative continuous load for the sockets in the strip is also 13A – > unless, of course, the mfr has decided to give it an overall lower current > rating, fitted a lower-rated fuse AND marked the plug with that rating. > BTW: I have also occasionally seen 7A fuses (the fuse standard is BS1362, > but, AFAIK, that only shows a few “standard” ratings, and not some of those > which are actually sold – such as those listed here > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fcpc.farnell.com%2Fsearch%3Fst%3Dplug%2520top% > 2520fuse&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com% > 7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata=wPYM7w6jiCCzu% > 2FcAE9o6b0piDWF7bM%2BNFIXPzHd%2BwGw%3D&reserved=0) > > I believe that the standard for such UK power strips is probably BS > 5733:2010+A1:2014 “General requirements for electrical accessories. > Specification” – but don’t have a copy and so can’t comment in detail on > what it requires. > > John Allen > W.London, UK > > > > From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] > Sent: 15 September 2017 07:36 > To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] power strip details > > UK household power strips are rated at 13 A and include a 13 A fuse. Other > fuses, normally used in plugs, are 3 A, 5 A and 10 A. I have seen a 1 A > fuse, but they are very rare. > > With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.jmwa.demon.co.uk%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted. > eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > eSgY3nPhG3OyYNCNTK69%2Ffwpdj3rlGCfkiHXMsjg3cs%3D&reserved=0 J M Woodgate > and Associates Rayleigh England > > UK is a sovereignty, not a Zollverein-ty > > From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org] > Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 5:55 AM > To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] power strip details > > Esteemed colleagues, > > Here in North America a domestic or commercial > multi-outlet power strip would be cord connected thru a duplex outlet > protected by a 15A (or sometimes 20A) circuit breaker. The max load > allowed in the circuit by the US NEC would be (80% of 15A) 12A for the > total load (or 80% of 20A) 16A on the 20A breaker. Note that the US NEC > requires that any device plugged into a duplex outlet must not use the full > load capacity of the circuit – 20% must be left for the other outlet’s > load. > > Trying to understand the loading basis for a Euro power > strip. Is the usual protection a 10A breaker? And would the power strip be > rated and evaluated at that load level? What other considerations come > into play here? > > How about a UK power strip. The usual protection is the > 13A fuse in the power plug (altho smaller values seemed to be used also). > Would the power strip be rated and evaluated at that load level? What > other considerations come into play here. > > For a Japanese power strip what is the normal breaker > protection for the installed circuit? What would be the max rated load for > the power strip? What other considerations come into play here also? > > Looking forward to your replies on this issue. > > :>) br, Pete > > Peter E Perkins, PE > Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant > PO Box 23427 > Tigard, ORe 97281-3427 > > 503/452-1201 > > mailto:p.perk...@ieee.org > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. 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To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <mailto: > emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02% > 7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > 5dBvPox7C0mCx%2FMgb233Yjkfb46zriT9rOidRvvoy3I%3D&reserved=0 > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct- > compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com% > 7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata=JCOF2Ybff10utEHWkev4PiDn5eOv% > 2FTL4xCKbQSPEy14%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted. > eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > eEf4QoehQXB70sNJSGMtXavZ99vUiefFeNBBMqKobyc%3D&reserved=0 > Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01% > 7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > NIBbkZFTMHUztTrweht7Ifwp%2FTTSTAaal8wqyEXNmlc%3D&reserved=0 > List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02% > 7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > gGkEheEXEaBcAUqKye3YFEk6cf37IRqYro4nAvMpMYw%3D&reserved=0 > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <mailto: > emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02% > 7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > 5dBvPox7C0mCx%2FMgb233Yjkfb46zriT9rOidRvvoy3I%3D&reserved=0 > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct- > compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com% > 7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata=JCOF2Ybff10utEHWkev4PiDn5eOv% > 2FTL4xCKbQSPEy14%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted. > eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > eEf4QoehQXB70sNJSGMtXavZ99vUiefFeNBBMqKobyc%3D&reserved=0 > Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01% > 7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > NIBbkZFTMHUztTrweht7Ifwp%2FTTSTAaal8wqyEXNmlc%3D&reserved=0 > List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02% > 7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > gGkEheEXEaBcAUqKye3YFEk6cf37IRqYro4nAvMpMYw%3D&reserved=0 > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <mailto: > emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Femc-pstc.html&data=02% > 7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > 5dBvPox7C0mCx%2FMgb233Yjkfb46zriT9rOidRvvoy3I%3D&reserved=0 > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fproduct- > compliance.oc.ieee.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com% > 7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011 > db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata=JCOF2Ybff10utEHWkev4PiDn5eOv% > 2FTL4xCKbQSPEy14%3D&reserved=0 can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > Website: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7Cted. > eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > eEf4QoehQXB70sNJSGMtXavZ99vUiefFeNBBMqKobyc%3D&reserved=0 > Instructions: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flist.html&data=02%7C01% > 7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > NIBbkZFTMHUztTrweht7Ifwp%2FTTSTAaal8wqyEXNmlc%3D&reserved=0 > List rules: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url= > http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ieee-pses.org%2Flistrules.html&data=02% > 7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7C460c37fbc456443dbbb308d4fc390b53% > 7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636410769320565642&sdata= > gGkEheEXEaBcAUqKye3YFEk6cf37IRqYro4nAvMpMYw%3D&reserved=0 > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > ______________________________________________________________________ > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <mailto: > emc-p...@ieee.org> > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <mailto:sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mailto:mcantw...@ieee.org> > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <mailto:j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <mailto:dhe...@gmail.com> > > - > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to < > emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in > well-used formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com> > -- Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Program Manager | scottald...@google.com | 650-253-1994 - ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
