Yes, of course quite a thin conductor will carry enough current to
operate the protection, because it doesn't have time to get seriously hot.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-11 19:35, Kunde, Brian wrote:
I know I started this thread, so I'm going to circuit back via another
direction.
The NEC allows a product with an 18 awg power cord (rated 10 amps), a 15 amp
plug, and C13 IEC connector (15 amp) to be plugged into a 15 amp branch
circuit. OH, you can also plug it into a 20 amp branch circuit because the
receptacles will accept a 15 amp plug. So what protects the freakishly small 18
awg power cord from bursting into flames in an overload condition? Must be the
OverCurrent Protection device in the product itself. Correct?
So back to original questions, can I use a power cord with a 20 amp plug (NEMA
5-20P), 12 awg wire, and 15 amp IEC C13 connector on a product that draws 15
amps and has a double pole 15 amp OCPD? With the same logic above, the OCP
device is protecting the power cord.
Would you allow this? Then again, your you allow a 18awg power cord to be used
on a 15 amp circuit? The NEC says it is ok.
Thanks,
The Other Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:30 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Had a condo with a smallish through-the-wall A/C unit with NEMA 5-15P plug.
In the room on one side of the unit was a dedicated 20A single outlet for the
A/C unit. In the room on the other side easily within reach of the cord was a
standard duplex outlet on the room circuit. Guess which one the A/C was
plugged into?
-Dave
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Perkins [mailto:00000061f3f32d0c-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 1:04 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Ralph, Ted et al,
Dunno how many times I have had this conversation with the project
engineer who wants to use the full rated current from the duplex outlet (and not
leave any for the other user who plugs into that outlet - which gives rise to the
80% rule) - except if they want to specify in the installation that the user must
have an expensive electrician install a special dedicated outlet (only one plug
available to the user on that CB controlled circuit); which gives rise to the
marketing folks nixing the idea. :>) Carry on! As you were doing...
:>) br, Pete
Peter E Perkins, PE
Principal Product Safety & Regulatory Affairs Consultant PO Box 23427 Tigard,
ORe 97281-3427
503/452-1201
p.perk...@ieee.org
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 9:05 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Sounds like an example of the 125% rule for continuous (>3hr) current. (20/16)
Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
From: Ted Eckert [mailto:000007cf6ebeab9d-dmarc-requ...@ieee.org]
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 5:50 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
NFPA 70 allows 20 A connectors to be used at 20 A under a number of
circumstances. The derating issue only applies in certain cases. Just changing
the rating doesn’t resolve the issue as it would eliminate already accepted
safe use of the connectors at their full rating.
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 11:21 PM
To: Ted Eckert <mailto:ted.eck...@microsoft.com>;
mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Yes, it could be difficult to change to respecting the rated values, so how
about respecting the de-rated values instead? Instead of saying that you can
only use this 20 A connector up to 16 A, call it a 16 A connector?
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7CTed.Eckert%40MICROSOFT.COM%7C6f5a4a13ae97469548f108d510703247%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432996434092831&sdata=vbIPUaUZRYojTmRGRu9LrQO4Emqy7f8wN1OY8mY%2BQFg%3D&reserved=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 21:57, Ted Eckert wrote:
The various clauses of NFPA 70 are reviewed, challenged, debated, argued and
rewritten. I don’t think the clause in question remains because nobody has
challenged it. Part of the issue is that the electrical infrastructure in the
U.S. has been developed around this rule. If affects circuit breaker trip
curves, conduit fill, wire sizes and rating and many other aspects of a
building’s electrical system. If the rule were changed, would there be problems
switching over? Would you have overheating in older structures where circuit
breakers were replaced without updating wiring? Wold there be other effects of
mixing 80% and 100% rated components? How many U.S. national standards would
need to be updated?
It is a poor analogy, but think about switching sides that you drive on the
road. Sweden switched on September 3, 1967. Street signs, traffic signals and
road markings all had to be changed. Headlights had to be adjusted or re-aimed.
For quite a while, there was a mix of left-hand and right-hand drive cars. It
was a massive undertaking for a country with fewer people than either London or
New York City.
Changing the way branch circuits are rated in the U.S. could be done, but it
would be an extremely complicated undertaking. The risks of a mismatch of
circuits, circuit protection and loads would be significant for a long time. I
suspect that by the time the technology evolved to the point where the
requirement could be eliminated, it was too late and eliminating it would
result in too much expense and rework.
Ted Eckert
Microsoft Corporation
The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my
employer.
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@woodjohn.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2017 12:49 PM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
Well, yes, because the IEC tends to believe that rated values are realistic and
do not need to be adjusted downwards. I suspect that at some point in the
distant past (maybe even nearly 100 years ago), some connectors in wide use
were found to overheat at rated current, so the 'derating rule' was brought in,
and no-one has challenged it since.
John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only
J M Woodgate and Associates
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.woodjohn.uk&data=02%7C01%7Cted.eckert%40microsoft.com%7Cb9a5abba70d24e2f093e08d51018031b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636432617679408094&sdata=jNpj%2FFhCHx9ir37o7Xf5GxovOe2h0nU9FIZnbo5mItE%3D&reserved=0
Rayleigh, Essex UK
On 2017-10-10 20:12, Ralph McDiarmid wrote:
The NEC (NFPA 70) talks about “continuous currents” and when to apply the
all-too-familiar 125% rule. Canadian Electric Code (CSA part I) has same
requirement. The IEC seems to have avoided it.
Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric
D 604-422-2622
From: Kunde, Brian [mailto:brian_ku...@lecotc.com]
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2017 8:31 AM
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] NEMA 5-20P with IEC 60320 C13
It is my understanding that according to the US National Electric Code, 15 amp
receptacle are derated to 12 amps max., and 20 amp receptacles are derated to
16 amps.
IEC 60320 C13 connectors are rated 15 amps in North America. Do I derate them
as well or can I draw 15 amps continuous from the C13 connector?
So here is the big question:
If I have a power cord with a NEMA-5-20P at one end, IEC 60320 C13 at the other
end, and 14awg cordage (rated 18A), can I use/ship this power cord with a
product rated 15 amps?
Thanks to all.
The Other Brian
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