On 12 Feb 2008 at 18:03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> EMC can do PID just fine.  It's steppers that can't.  Steppers lose 
> torque as the speed increases.  There is no way around this, it's just 
> the physics of the motor.  


Did someone rewrite the spec for PID?

used to be a way of correcting a system or process in just the same way that an 
operator 
would, and it certainly didn't require any more torque, just a wait state.

> PID loop will attempt to correct for a 
> lagging motor by requesting more "effort" from the motor. 

When did this become the *only* option PID had, more torque and overspeed?

I'm not trying to be funny here but I've used a lot of these technologies in 
the past, and yet, 
when it comes to EMC I'm starting to get the impression that some things are 
done 
differently.

I'm not quite sure why, I'm not even sure they are, but it is the impression 
I'm getting, and I 
hope I'm wrong.


> Even if the motor just loses a step or two which is 
> detected by the scale, you can't get it to catch up - it's already at 
> the limit of its power envelope or it wouldn't have fallen behind in the
> first place.

So, wait state, you surely aren't telling me that EMC will simply carry on 
thinking it is 
machining a part if the coupling between a motor and leadscrew fails???


> 
> You had an incorrect assumption in your original email:  that using 
> linear scales will eliminate backlash issues. 

NO, it won't eliminate it, but it will eliminate it from calculations, as it 
gives true position, not 
estimated position, then add fudge tables.

> This isn't true at all.  
> Backlash is an uncertainty in machine position.  If you're climb 
> milling, the cutter will tend to pull the table "ahead" of the motor.  
> When conventional milling, the cutter will resist motor motion.  It's 
> not possible for the control to know which type of cutting is taking 
> place at any given time, and it may even vary within a move, so there's 
> no way to "compensate" for it. 

eh, it is working from a tool path with a defined depth of cut and cutter 
overlap from last pass, 
direction of beds is also knows so "knowing" whether you are cutting on the 
climb or the chip 
is as trivial a logic problem as it is for a human operator.

> Additionally, de-coupling the feedback 
> from the motor, especially through a drive with backlash, will make the 
> system very hard to tune.  The PID integrator will "wind up" as the 
> motor starts to spin to take up the backlash, but the feedback won't 
> change until the motor is already moving.  The motor will slam the table
> into motion, at which time the PID starts to wind up the other way.  The
> result is - you guessed it - oscillation.  This is very hard to tune
> out.
> 
> There has been some discussion recently about using both encoders and 
> linear scales, but there isn't any software to do that yet.  I think 
> this is the "different method of machine control" that Kirk is talking 
> about.
> 
> As for redundancy, since EMC takes encoder feedback, there isn't really 
> any need for a DRO - the EMC display is actual position.

Listen, I know from experience that my words have a tendency to get people's 
backs up, and 
I don't want to do this, members of this list have been extremely helpful and 
extremely nice.

But.

I'm getting an awful suspicion here, and that awful suspicion (and I dearly 
hope I'm wrong) is 
that EMC is going to suffer the same problems of many open source projects, 
it's crap.

For example, you've got the gimp, and you've got photoshop.

It isn't about whether one is free as in beer or one can be modified, it is 
about which one is 
actually productive for those who wish to edit images only, and have no 
interest or talent in 
coding. Photoshop creams the gimp. The gimp is only free if my time is worth 
nothing, eg 
editing images is a hobby, not a job of work and not competing with a job of 
work for my time.

I'm starting to suspect that EMC is a project that started out, not to emulate 
the commercial 
equivalents, but built bit by bit to do various things on the cheap, I'm 
starting to suspect that 
EMC is not a realtime machine control system, but rather an offline (non 
realtime) simulator 
that relies on assumption (I sent signals to move X 1.01 mm, therefore I shall 
assume it has 
moved 1.01 mm) 

I hope this is not so and I'm wrong, because if not EMC is no use to me.

Please don't do the "well that's open source buddy and you can always code your 
own 
solution cos after all it is free software" thing on me, I'm not actually here 
with my primary 
concern being paying as little as possible or preferably nothing for software, 
I'd be quite 
prepared to pay for EMC, and as a long lime linux user I dig open source (can't 
code myself 
but there we go) but at the end of the day when it comes to all forms of 
software I'm looking 
for a tool to do a job, and I don't mind paying for a good tool.

For example, you say "As for redundancy, since EMC takes encoder feedback, 
there isn't 
really 
any need for a DRO - the EMC display is actual position." and I'm sort of, 
what??? encoder 
feedback is only actual position if it is measuring actual position, eg linear 
scales...

Is this simply a case of linear scales used to be frighteningly expensive so 
the EMC coder 
ignored them and went with the cheap option, and then started fudging around to 
try to fix the 
problems associated with going the cheap route?

I'll grant you that rotary encoders on the leadscrews can be pretty accurate, 
emphasis on 
"can", if you retrofit with class 5 rolled ballscrews and scrape the ways, but 
if you're using 
trapezoidals fuhgeddabadit...

Again, I'm not trying to give offence, but I'm wondering what sort of people 
are members of 
this list, how many are turners, how many are coders, how many are hobbyists, 
how many 
think that an encoder set up that displays numbers accurate to a few micron is 
suddenly 
going to allow you to make chips to that same level of "accuracy"?

Yesterday I bought the DRO and sino scales as I said, the whole package with 
everything 
(extras) thrown in and a couple of other items was just under 500 quid, an hour 
later I 
ordered a sheet of 10mm 5083, it cost just about as much as the basic dro and 
scales, for 
me my time is money and for me materials are money, if EMC isn't going to save 
me time 
then I'm better off paying money for commercial closed source software, and if 
EMC is going 
to try to force me to work wihin arbitrary parameters like you can't use linear 
scales and 
steppers because of the way the code is written then EMC just did a kcad and 
gimp on me, 
which is a shame, but this isn't a hobby when you start spending hundreds of 
pounds on 
materials.

Again, many thanks to all who have replied to my queries before, much 
appreciated.

cheers


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