I think you have to figure in the cost of the machine too. In the case where the parts where handed over to another shop, someone calculated that giving away some of the profit was better than spending to buy a 5-axis machine. Maybe you make more money by NOT buying the fancy machine?
Look at the other extreme, Tesla pays Idra to build a custom machine and now a car chassis can be made at a rate of 45 per hour. So sometimes you can invest in only a low cost machine and do 80% of the work and you outsource the harder 20% and avoid the cost of the very expensive machine that is only needed 20% of the time. Or like Tesla, Invest is vertical integration, have a very short supply chain and keep all of the profit for yourself. Both seem to work. > On Sep 13, 2024, at 4:12 AM, Stuart Stevenson <stus...@gmail.com> wrote: > > I agree BUT everything has limits. 5 axis is not a general panacea. Machine > geometry matching the desired result is paramount. > A programmer friend always said he could "program" almost anything with a > .020in end mill 40 inches long and it would work on the screen. > > On Wed, Sep 11, 2024, 10:01 PM Dave Engvall <dengv...@charter.net> wrote: > >> There is nothing like machine geometry that fits the job you want to do. >> :-) >> >>> On Apr 12, 2024, at 9:08 AM, Stuart Stevenson <stus...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Good morning, >>> I am sitting here at 70 wondering how people get along without 5 axis. A >>> shop here in Wichita sent me 500 parts to run. He was running them on a 4 >>> axis mori seiki. The runtime was a little over an hour. He wanted to >> clear >>> machine time. He furnished programs, material, fixtures, cutters. The >>> envelope was 8 inches X 4 inches X 1 inch. We called them porkchops. Flat >>> bottom but with standing ribs at angles and contours. Long, small >> diameter >>> cutters to reach small corners. I programmed the parts for my 5 axis, >> made >>> new fixtures (a plate with locating bushings) and used much shorter >>> cutters. Machine run time was now 18 minutes. You CAN do 5 axis parts on >> 3 >>> axis and 4 axis machines BUT (it is a very big but) it takes more time >> and >>> effort. >>> >>> My maternal grandparents were born in 1894 and 1895, My paternal >>> grandparents were born in 1903 and 1904. They also had stories. >>> >>> regards >>> Stuart >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Apr 12, 2024 at 10:33 AM Chris Albertson < >> albertson.ch...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> All very true and well for someone equipt with the income and mental >>>> gear to use that chain of tools profitably. But I'm an old Iowa farm >> kid, >>>> we made what we needed. The "store" was 15 miles of horse drawn wagon >> over >>>> a mud road the county graded about 2x a year and all of a days ride in a >>>> wagon away. So we grew it, or made it from the woodyard, whatever. 2 >> miles >>>> to the 1 room school, I rode an old gentle mare the first mile but had >> to >>>> walk the 2nd mile because there wasn't a barn for the mare during the >> day >>>> any closer to the school when the weather was bad. Grandpa across the >> road >>>> had electricity, a 32 volt delco wet glass batteries, charged by a >> zenith >>>> windcharger. The prop broke, so mother who was the only girl in the 1929 >>>> class on aviation technology at Des Moines Tech Hi School, proceeded to >>>> teach her father how to carve the wing chord in a new prop. Worked well >> in >>>> less wind than the one we could get from Chicago. That led to grandpa >>>> having the first electric washing machine in Madison County Ia when the >>>> Maytag hit & miss tried to start backwards, broke the starter gears and >>>> grandma's ankle. A wagon load of shelled corn went to town, and was >>>> replaced by an electric motor and enough heavy wire to convert the >> Maytag. >>>> I still wear scars on one hand from getting it caught in the wringer >> when I >>>> was 5. We did not want for anything, we "made do" That is a hard habit >> to >>>> outgrow. >>>> >>>> But today you own a computer, lots of CNC equipment, a 3D printer and >>>> education is free and just a mouse click away. None of the stuff I >> wrote >>>> about costs even one dollar. I’m the old ririred guy now. Fusion360 >> is >>>> free to use. I can print ther prats and then if. Needed sand the same >>>> design to CNC machine or to an injection molder >>>> >>>> I think you are right about relativity, Einstein very much admired James >>>> Clerk Maxwell. Someone said Einstein ”stood on the shoulders of >> Newton”. >>>> Einstein corrected him and said “I stood on Maxwell’s shoulders”. >>>> >>>> Thanks for the story. I always like to hear those “when I was a kid…” >>>> stories. My four grandparents were born in 1902 through 1911 they >> could >>>> talk about the days before radio broadcasting and one-room schoolhouses. >>>> One grandfather was a professional boxer in the 1920s and traveled a >> lot. >>>> But even more interesting to me, my wife’s parents and uncles were born >> in >>>> pre-war Japan. I think they lived through more change than any living >>>> American. Sadly the last of them is in very poor health. My wife is >>>> visting her mom in Tokyo right now. >>>> >>>> Maybe when I am older I will talk about the days of manually driven gas >>>> cars. >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My electronics education is 100% self taught. My mother gave me an IQ >>>> good enough to pass the CET test w/o cracking a text to study it. I >>>> understand the physics of it including Relativity. Electronics and >>>> Relativity go hand in hand, cannot be separated. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 10, 2024, at 12:09 AM, gene heskett <ghesk...@shentel.net >>> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 4/10/24 01:57, John Dammeyer wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> A friend and I have been discussing exactly how to write the >>>> G-Code to >>>>>>>>>>>> create a spiral scroll. >>>>>>>>>>>> His rotary table 90:1 reduction with a 1600 micro-step motor >>>> could be set up >>>>>>>>>>>> to move N steps for each step of the X axis to create the >>>> spiral. But that >>>>>>>>>>>> approach seems clumsy. >>>>>>>>>>>> Say I wanted to cut a scroll with a 6mm pitch using a 3mm >> cutter. >>>>>>>>>>>> Without using G2 or G3 it's really just a triangle isn't it? >>>> Move rotary >>>>>>>>>>>> table distance A and move X axis distance A'. Do it in small >>>> enough >>>>>>>>>>>> increments and you get a spiral. But I feel like I'm missing >>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>> really simple. >>>>>>>>>> Do you need a rotary table to cut a spiral? It is just a series >>>> of locations in (x,y). OK, if you wanted to use only (say) the X and A >>>> axis then you should use polar coordinates, not cartesian. The equation >> of >>>> a spiral on polar coordinates is very simple. Then you evaluate itat >> many >>>> thousands of points and at each point write gcode to “cut to” that >> point. >>>> You would not need the rotary table. >>>>>>>>>> Also why think in micro-steps and worm gear rates, you are using >>>> LCNC to do the kinematics, Use millimeters. >>>>>>>>>> I think this problem shows that in some cases you really can not >>>> write the gcode by hand. FOr continous curves in (x,y) there might be >>>> 100,000 or more lines of code in the file, especially if you don’t do >> the >>>> cut in one pass. You would nee towrite software to generate the g-code. >>>> Or use existing software, a lot of CAD systems will do this for you >>>>>>>>>>> First, a 90/1 is quite high. I have two rotary's, both consisting >>>> of a 3NM 3phase stepper/servo I made by combining the 3NM motor with a >> 5/1 >>>> worm. Using a screw in the worms output hub as a single prox sensor >> index >>>> pulse generator. To calibrate a complete rev, I measure the steps by >>>> starting the count on the 3rd turn ans stopping the count on the 103rd >>>> turn, which gives me a scale*100. Shift the decimal point 2 places left >>>> this becomes the scale for the axis in the .ini file. All this math in >>>> linuxcnc is floating point so I can ask it for 33.333 degrees and it >> will >>>> run to what it thinks is 33.333 degrees. This stepscale: >>>>>>>>>>> STEPSCALE = 22.22222222222 = 1 degree >>>>>>>>>>> So one count is about 1/22.22222222222 degrees, probably less >> than >>>> the backlash in the rvs39 worm, a pretty cheap worm. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Currently to make one of my maple vise screws, starting at 0 >>>> degrees its around 60,000 degrees it turns for around 400 mm of screw >> that >>>> y travels. Then I lift the tool, turn it another 180 degrees, re lower >> the >>>> tool and bring y back to zero and b=180. Makes a perfect two start >> buttress >>>> thread. The B is turning, in perfect sync with the Y motion, at >> something >>>> in the 300 to 400 rpm range. That 3NM motor is heating but not >> dangerously >>>> so. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There is no reason you couldn't lay it down to make a C drive, >> and >>>> simultaneously drive X Z & C to carve an impeller in a quite serviceable >>>> scroll. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The versatility of the closed loop stepper/servo, which does >>>> EXACTLY what the TP tells it to do, without a PID in the path, is >> amazing. >>>> I have them rigged to e-stop linuxcnc in about a millisecond if they >> make >>>> an error, like losing a step. Tested till the cows come home, has yet to >>>> happen working a job. I haven't hobbed any gears, but it certainly seems >>>> accurate enough to do it. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Suggestions? >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>>>>> John >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: >>>>>>>>>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." >>>>>>>>>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) >>>>>>>>>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law >>>> respectable. >>>>>>>>>>> - Louis D. Brandeis >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto: >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> <mailto: >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>> <mailto:Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: >>>>>>>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." >>>>>>>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) >>>>>>>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law >>>> respectable. >>>>>>>>> - Louis D. Brandeis >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto: >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> <mailto: >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>> <mailto:Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto: >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> <mailto: >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: >>>>>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." >>>>>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) >>>>>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law >>>> respectable. >>>>>>> - Louis D. Brandeis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net <mailto: >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net> >>>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>>> >>>>> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET. >>>>> -- >>>>> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: >>>>> soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order." >>>>> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940) >>>>> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law >> respectable. >>>>> - Louis D. Brandeis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> Emc-users mailing list >>>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Addressee is the intended audience. >>> If you are not the addressee then my consent is not given for you to read >>> this email furthermore it is my wish you would close this without saving >> or >>> reading, and cease and desist from saving or opening my private >>> correspondence. >>> Thank you for honoring my wish. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Emc-users mailing list >>> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> > > _______________________________________________ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users _______________________________________________ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
