----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
Sally
You wrote: “… not yet a way to transform the most common form of movement
notation (Labanotation) into video action … and [you are looking for, but not
finding] magical animated movies [related to the] felt body”
Do you know Leslie Bishko’s (at Emily Carr) [
https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/
<https://labanforanimators.wordpress.com/leslie-bishko/> ] … work that uses
Labanotation to create “expressive movement in computer animation”
Also, do you study Feldenkrais Method that influenced an earlier generation of
experimental animators — especially Sky David?
The connections among dance/movement and experimental animation is probably
stymied by disciplinary boundaries in colleges — the dancers want the
“documentation” that you discuss below and the media-makers want to use dancers
to “sell music” [music videos], and poetry is … Well, all this to say — it is
too rare to have someone translate and adapt a theoretical essay into
“dance-poems”
Craig
On Nov 26, 2016, at 10:58 PM, Sally Silvers <silversda...@gmail.com> wrote:
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Completely overwhelmed by Thanksgiving and the aftermaths. But... hope
everyone who celebrated had a great one.
Responding to Chris's sense of code and connecting it to poetry and music
projects, and cyborgian relationships to the body, I did a dance piece (right
after 9/11) on cyborgs and nuns to make the connection between nuns who were
the first 'feminists' of their time — choosing god and celibacy in order to
gain access to education & to avoid forced pregnancy and motherhood — & the
cyborg as a challenge to patriarchal-based dualities.
I also wrote an essay on Donna Haraway's "A Cyborg Manifesto" that Chris
mentions as being so influential for him as well.
http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays
<http://www.sallysilversdance.com/essays>
In my dance (Strike Me Lighting) the first half was devoted to nuns and the 2nd
half to cyborgs. I remember it was much easier to set in motion nuns than it
was cyborgs. All the kneeling, contemplating, in-fighting, and undercover sex,
so to speak, had more oomph than bodies with mechanical parts. The stiff robot
move gets old fast. I ended up having to use a lot of photographs from books
on cyborgs and spatializing the moves with things like star constellation floor
patterns.
I find this to be true online as well. The body may be the last thing to be
made digital in a non-reduced form or in a fresh translated form. Unless you
think of dance videos as a stand alone form & mostly I don't as they mostly
seem like a translation of the body into something to sell music or glamorize
some other product. Of course there are some exceptions to this as when the
form of video and the form of dance/movement make a new concept -- when the
language of each is not diminished. But most of the dance on film or via
computer that I've seen seems like documentation or romanticized body angles.
Video on-line is never as satisfying as the body live. (well maybe toddlers &
animals get a pass). There is not yet a way to transform the most common form
of movement notation (Labanotation) into video action.There is clumsy software
that Merce Cunningham mastered which mostly works with given movement
combinations and vocabulary and allows you to recombine or select parts of the
body, but it's not that easy to use to make something interesting for the
computer itself; it's mostly a tool for rehearsal.
When gravity is absent, movement is hard to design.
I am still trying to imagine what a combination of movement and digital art
could be without it seeming gimmicky.
I've seen performances with robots (cute), sound triggered electronically by
dancers' bodies (so what), abstractions made by putting light/sensor points on
the body (like trees wrapped in xmas lights —very pretty), but so far I have
not seen or heard of anything that would allow actual interaction or that makes
chance or algorithms very available or interesting. I'm waiting for virtual
reality to at least make it more real and felt for the viewer because 3-d has
been somewhat of a bust. I have hopes for all these things but as of yet,
nothing is as appealing to me as actually working on the live body. The
computer is a luddite when it comes to dance/choreography.
When I google digital dance or computer dance, few programs come up — mostly
for managing the business side of a dance school!
Of course, there are all these incredible, magical animated movies, but I still
remain interested in the felt body, the body with weight, that registers
gravity I'm waiting though; I'm eager for more knowledge on the possibilities
of digital dance, in the way so many possibilities have been organized for
digital poetry/language and digital music/sound.
Sally Silvers
On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 4:23 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <mura...@gmail.com
<mailto:mura...@gmail.com>> wrote:
----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
Chris, first, happy Thanksgiving to you and to all the others, at least the
people living in the United States. Also thank you for your thoughtful answers.
Yes, for a short moment at least, the idea of making Empyre like a 1990's
listserv was intentional, ideas coming from different directions, the
excitement of not knowing where to turn next, etc. Those lists were meandering,
argumentative, even sometimes hostile; but very productive. My purpose has been
to project a sense of what we miss, what the web has become.
"... I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating ways full
of contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a technologist, I
might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely did), though not
anymore..."
The contradiction (in a positive sense) I am referring to is not in your
involvement in technology as a poet. After all, all of us as artists or poets
use technology. in some way or another, be it a pencil or a computer. Rather, I
am referring to, as I see it, an interesting contradiction (or tension) in your
ideals/impulses. On the one hand, reading your Prehistoric Digital Poetry. I
sensed a great interest in developing the capabilities of the computer
progressively to create a poetry unique to the medium from word to image to
movement to sound, and their combination --finally creating a poetic form
which is both absorbing and ephemeral and can be read practically in endless
ways depending on the choices the "reader" makes. In that synthesis, the
digital poem resembles very much a computer game where words/letters are one
element. Towards the end of the book, I remember asking myself what
differentiates that digital poem from a game (not a play). I don't think I
found a satisfactory answer in the book.
It is basically that contradiction I am referring to. Perhaps, since the
writing of that book, you have found an answer and, therefore, see no
contradiction. A sense of play has always been part of poetry, but is a game
the same thing?
Failure for me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that make a work
inaccessible, which happen way to often & on multiple levels (e.g., hosting,
.www permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software standards (i.e.,
Flash/Shockwave)
Here I think we differ. Failure for me is a residue that remains in the poem
after it is "finished." It is integral to the kind of poetry or poetics I
write. Failure or success of communication, obtaining or failing to obtain
rights are different. I know for you the ephemeral quality of internet sites or
changing computer software are major issues. They are what make digital poetry
(or any digital art) temporary, subject to time. Perhaps that is the failure
that haunts digital works. I don't know. You tell me.
"...working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a general vision
as to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen on-the-fly. In this
realm there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can be/is extended if to many
big changes have to be made on the fly..."
If I understand correctly, the basic creative part of a digital work occurs in
the programming of the software where the visionary or poetic impulse comes
into play. If the original idea changes, the program has to be altered "on the
fly"; or, I assume, sometimes the idea is bent by the exigencies of the
program. If so, how does the idea of perfection come into play? In what sense
is the code always perfect? How do you know?
"... there are ways to organize expression & project material without being
bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s “perfection”. These tools are
there to help us do what we want..."
☺so the code is perfect and imperfect (or perfect with loop holes). I like that.
"... the coding allows the sound-image-text to be rendered improvisationally.
MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or speak, and have the sound (& makeup of
the sound) trigger onscreen or audible events...."
How do you determine the triggered on screen or audible events are random? Do
you mean it feels random to the viewer/listener?
"... Plus, programs like javascript enable impromptu, interactive database
stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot but project a sense of
spontaneity and uniqueness..."
We are I think touching a very crucial issue. "A sense of spontaneity and
uniqueness" is an effect, basically a rhetorical trope. It can be premeditated,
created through hard labor or through a code. "Improvisation" is an act.
Something is either improvised or not. For instance, in his performances,
Taylor is improvising, not creating a sense of it. Doesn't the difference
matter?
"... he idea that so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human & machine, made
(makes) a lot of sense. So I basically see everything that uses digital media
non-trivially to be a cyborgian endeavor. ...."
Chris, here we completely agree with each other. My poem The Spiritual Life of
Replicants is precisely such a work. In Blade Runner --the film on which the
poem is built (by the way, Blade Runner is the last Hollywood film that uses no
digital special effects)-- the ultimate perfect code that no technology can
break or contravene is mortality, to which even the cyborgs are subject.
Chris, thank you again for your thoughtful responses.
To be continued...
Murat
On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Funkhouser, Christopher T.
<christopher.t.funkhou...@njit.edu <mailto:christopher.t.funkhou...@njit.edu>>
wrote:
----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
Hi Murat,
I couldn’t delve into anything on Thanksgiving, & hope everyone had a blessed
day.
Now, let’s see… this discussion reminds me of being on listservs in the 90s:
lots to think about, hard to keep up with everything, & difficult to elaborate
as much as one would like, or could in a face-to-face situation.
I was wondering what you meant by my work being, “in fascinating ways full of
contradictions”. Early on as a poet who became somewhat of a technologist, I
might have seen that as a contradiction (others definitely did), though not
anymore.
But how often starting a work of art do we no where we are going (at least the
kind of work I assume interests you and me)? We evolve, basically try to
discover the work. In that way, intention is not a useful concept for me. To me
failure has to do with gaps in a work, loose or unexplained parts though the
work is presented as complete. In that way, failure is related more to a lack
of total answer.
Discovering the work is a good way to describe what usually happens, but
working with software/design/code/&c I always try to have a general vision as
to where I’m going even if a lot of things do happen on-the-fly. In this realm
there’s often a lot of tedious prep, which can be/is extended if to many big
changes have to be made on the fly. If I don’t set up some sort of general
intention, though (as in a yoga class), I’d likely have problems! Failure for
me usually has to do with tech issues—esp. those that make a work inaccessible,
which happen way to often & on multiple levels (e.g., hosting, .www
permissions, dll updates, changes in OS & software standards (i.e.,
Flash/Shockwave))
What is interesting in what you do is that, while you "accept" the absolute
perfection of the code, a lot of the artists that interest you and you get
deeply involved with, including your own projects, are open ended,
improvisational, "evanescent" so to speak, such as Cecil Tayloror the wonderful
piece of music "Wedge" you linked us to in your post.
I do try to keep an open perspective on things, & working with
programming/design software there are ways to organize expression & project
material without being bogged down by any constraints imparted code’s
“perfection”. These tools are there to help us do what we want, & there are
ways to use them that allow invention & expansion rather than confine.
In what relation do you see the perfection of the digital code (its
"unforgiving" divine reality :) ) and your improvisational aesthetics? I know
in in your book you say that the poetry created digitally is essentially
ephemeral, and the artist must acknowledge it.
I definitely accept ephemerality as a given, & expect most digital works—if not
cared for/maintained with some dedication—will become unusable somewhere down
the line (has already happened, to me & others--a lot), which in many cases is
really unfortunate. I see it as part of the conditions of postmodern poetry.
David Antin's skywriting piece disappeared even more quickly!
fwiw, the thing about the work I’m doing now (for the past 5 years or so), with
sound and image, is that the coding allows the sound-image-text to be rendered
improvisationally. MIDI allows me to play an instrument, or speak, and have the
sound (& makeup of the sound) trigger onscreen or audible events. Once I
discovered how to make this happen, making improvised digital poems became
possible. Plus, programs like javascript enable impromptu, interactive database
stylings that may not be improvised on-the-spot but project a sense of
spontaneity and uniqueness—they seem improvised (esp. if the user/viewer is
allowed to input content). &, btw, I did end up posting some of the new work
I've done, mapping voice to instrumentation, a couple of days ago at
https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration
<https://soundcloud.com/fnkhsr/page-33-infiltration> (another approach, where
instrument drives animation in performance is up at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9PkkqOzCf4> or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si30Iajz4Zs> (a collab with Amy & Sophia
Sobers, whose projections do not appear unfortunately)
"I was thinking about glitch after my post yesterday, but even in something
that is glitch (in any form), the code functions properly. usually these works
are aberrations imposed by composer, hardware, or software. but it is the
surface that contains something unexpected/distorted. the code is able to do
what it is instructed/informed to do. glitch is a great cyborgian form, whether
intentionally created, or not.."
To me, Chris, the above passage reminds me of Medieval (Christian) discourse on
God and the existence of evil-- OK! But the stakes are not so elevated. I was
just rambling on, probably ineffectively, a certain topic. As far as making
stuff goes, I never think of myself or anyone else as taking on the role of
god, though I do like the highlighted passage of your post below!
God's design is often inscrutable, but always there. Humanity can only
experience the surface --and sees evil (unexpected/distorted): "What is the
difference between God and virtual God?" "Virtual God is real." It's the
software programmer.
Could you elaborate on the following sentence: "glitch is a great cyborgian
form, whether intentionally created, or not.."
Sure. One of the first “theorists” I ever read was Donna Haraway, in 1991 when
we were both living in Santa Cruz. Her Manifesto about Simians, Cyborgs, &
Women really knocked me out & I kind of took it to heart & mind. The idea that
so many things are chimeras, hybrids of human & machine, made (makes) a lot of
sense. So I basically see everything that uses digital media non-trivially to
be a cyborgian endeavor. That was the reference point. Glitch can of course be
done non-digitally (with scissors, paint, arms, quod libet) so it’s not
exclusive to computers. I know a few people who, using software (as well as
output manipulation) do intentional glitch work; othertimes, it happens by
accident & comes to eyes, ears, etc.
I’m sure I didn’t say enough, or address everything, but that’s it for the
moment. Bests, CF
On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <mura...@gmail.com
<mailto:mura...@gmail.com>> wrote:
----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
Bruce, you have hooked up with the Project ten years earlier than me. I had
just returned from living in London for almost two years (and I had said to my
wife Karen that if I don't see another beautiful green park in my life I'll be
happy). I wanted to go to a poetry event in New York. It was Wednesday, and at
the Project Paul Auster was presenting his anthology of French poetry that he
had edited with multiple readers (to me the most memorable was Armand Schwerner
reading his Michaux translations). That was it. I became friends with Bob
Rosenthal and Simon Pettet who had introduced Paul, and we created The
Committee for International Poetry. That was another adventure.
I agree with you about the ups and down of the Project. We all heard our share
of boring stuff there. I did doze off occasionally but the place always seemed
to come through. A lot of poets, artists came from different parts of the
States and the world and learned from and collaborated with each other.
What the Project has been doing is what the Web is doing now. I have had long
term collaborations with artists over the years whom I have never met. That is
the huge positive of the digital world.
"We did want to focus attention on language itself as the medium, but I'm not
ready to embrace some of your characterization: words & letters are not
non-referential, but we liked to organize them in other ways beside what they
were pointing to (which was too often, for us, the author's personalizing
experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric expectations). We tended to
want the readers' experience at the center — which cuts against some of this
binary of yours about the sensual, movement-based vs. logical aspects of
language"
Bruce, when you say "We tended to want the readers' experience at the center,"
are you saying anything different than saying "I want the text at the center,"
the reader reading the text? The question interests me because in my essay The
Peripheral Space of Photography, I assert that what is important in a
photograph is not the photographer's focus (framing), but what escapes that
framing. The real dialogue occurs between the watcher of the photograph and
what is in front of the lens (human or a landscape, etc.). If, as I think you
are to saying, it is the reader (and not purely the text), then even the
"reveries" the reader builds around the text reading it become part of it. Is
that not so?
"Logical" was an unfortunate choice of words, on my part. I am more interested
in the distinction between predicated idea (therefore fixed) and thought as
process (therefore movement). One can have thought and/in movement (that's what
Eda is). In that way, thought is sensual.
"So if there's an "exchange" it's a mutual bending (which might be way too
mutually disruptive to warrant being called a "synthesis"). Maybe that's more
like the relationship between a 'dialect' & an 'official' language — [and by
the way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?
Yes, mutually bending and disruptive, not a synthesis. That's what a true,
transforming translation does, bends, alters both languages, discovers
potentialities in them. Walter Benjamin does see a synthesis in the process
when he writes that in a translation "A" does not move to "B" but both move to
a third place "C ," which he calls "ideal language." Some people believe
Benjamin was being a "poet" (poet in the pejorative sense) here. "Ideal
language" is a mystical fantasy. I am not one of them. I believe it is part of
the core of his very original concept of translation.
"... doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up in a synthesis]?"
Not necessarily. I believe in an art or poetry of continuous dialectic. The
Talmud, where the interpretations of a holy passage are never resolved and
remain always multiple, is such a text.
To be continued (inviting others to join).
Ciao,
Murat
On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Andrews <andr...@fordham.edu
<mailto:andr...@fordham.edu>> wrote:
----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
Hi all — finally figured out a little more about the interface [one of my least
favorite words] & receiving messages intriguingly dated many hours ahead — from
Australia — so it's already Thanksgiving the day before.
Thanks, on Thanksgiving [with recent political events, e.g. the trumpocalypse,
having disrupted so many things I was hoping for & hoping to give thanks for],
Murat, for your Intro.
Nice to think of the Poetry Project as a site for adventurous exploring —
certainly it's where I first had a chance to talk with you (often about matters
political, Turkey, etc. — I started going there, & getting to read every couple
years, right after arriving in NYC in 1975, to take a job as a Political
Science professor [American Imperialism my specialty] wch lasted 38 of the 41
years since).
The so-called 'Language Poets' actually tended to question whether the
consensus 'New York School/Beat' styles honored at the PProject was really
still devoted to adventurously "exploring the outer limits and possibilities"
of the medium: our aesthetics had taken shape in the early to mid 1970s, mostly
outside of NY & hashed out in the mail rather than face to face in any
community 'scene'. We did want to focus attention on language itself as the
medium, but I'm not ready to embrace some of your characterization: words &
letters are not non-referential, but we liked to organize them in other ways
beside what they were pointing to (which was too often, for us, the author's
personalizing experience or expressiveness or traditional lyric expectations).
We tended to want the readers' experience at the center — which cuts against
some of this binary of yours about the sensual, movement-based vs. logical
aspects of language. If I had to choose sides there, I'd always go with
movement & the sensory, as a way to 'volatilize' & 'capacitate' its potential
readers; my own writing certainly doesn't get much acclaim for being "logical".
But I'd rather step outside any polemical wrangling about the poetry we do &
keep things focused on the digital front: for instance, whether an online
presentation tends to help or hinder the kinds of reading that put movement &
the senses in the forefront.
On your question: I don't think that verbal language is basically a
self-referential system; instead, it seems more like a messy hybrid. And so is
what happens via the computer & the web: this may be distinctive as a
linguistic/communicative arrangement, but that's not exactly what I see in the
idea of it creating its own system. So if there's an "exchange" it's a mutual
bending (which might be way too mutually disruptive to warrant being called a
"synthesis"). Maybe that's more like the relationship between a 'dialect' & an
'official' language — [and by the way, doesn't "the dialectic" typically end up
in a synthesis]?
On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat <mura...@gmail.com
<mailto:mura...@gmail.com>> wrote:
----------empyre- soft-skinned space----------------------
I have known these week's guest participants or been familiar with their works
for years. They have all been, directly or indirectly, part of the Poetry
Project poetry and art community. A spirit of adventure exploring the outer
limits and possibilities each of his or her own media that has been the
characteristic of the place since 1960's for fifty years permeates all of them.
I met Chris Funkhauser first in 1994 during a Poetry Project symposium on
"Revolutionary Poetry." He and his friend Belle Gironde --both University of
Albany students at the time-- along with three other young people had organized
an "unofficial" workshop on "Poetry and Technology" that, if I remember
correctly, had set up its tent out in the garden of the church. I was a member
of the final panel that presented overviews of the symposium. As part of my
preparation, I visited the workshop. I was so struck by what they were doing,
by the spirit of Dada in their manifesto of the virtual --yes, the
possibilities of a virtual poetry was infused with Dada mojo at the time-- that
I spent a final, significant portion of my talk on that workshop. I felt what
the workshop was saying contained a significant portion of the revolutionary
spirit the symposium was searching for. Chris and I remained friends ever
since. Interestingly, Bruce Andrews, the second guest participant this week,
was another member of that panel also.
Here are two passages from "Takes or Mis-takes from the Revolutionary
Symposium, The Poetry Project, May 5-8, 1994," the second being its ending. The
talk consisted of quotations from the symposium (peppered with my reactions):
"What's the difference between God and virtual God?"
"Virtual God is real." It's the software programer.
"From The Poetry and Technology workshop: 'Give free shit to lure them….
Commodity lives," Eric Swensen, the 'Enema' of Necro Enema Amalgamated,
producers of the manifesto BLAM!"
Bruce Andrew was with Charles Bernstein the co-editor of the ground breaking
poetry magazine L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E which, as the "=" signs in the title implies,
ushered a new attitude towards poetry and language. Letters, words relate more
to each other than to a referential point outside. The result was the
transforming (and influential on younger poets) poetry movement Language School
of which Bruce is a key member. As a poet, I have had serious disagreements
with strict (in my view, almost fundementalist) take on language the movement
embodies. I come from the East (Turkey). Though equally exploring, my view of
language is different, more sensual, based on movement than logic. I tried to
bring these qualities to English language and American poetry though my concept
of Eda. On the other, I must admit the poetry of my friends in the States
inevitably bent the direction of my work. I believe Eda will do, and is already
doing, the same even though though the effect is not totally visible yet.
There is one question I would like very much Bruce to explore, if at all
possible, among many others. The computer seems to create its own
linguistic/communicative system. If verbal language also is basically a
self-referential system, how do you see the possibility of exchange between
these two entities? Is it at all, possible? If so, what has to bend to
accommodate the other? In other words, is the relationship towards synthesis or
always dialectical?
I saw Sally Silvers dance for the first time years ago during a Poetry Project
New Years' Day Marathon. I was immediate struck by the uniqueness and
originality of her dance. Over the years I tried to answer that question
because I felt it said something important, not only about but beyond dance.
Gradually, a picture emerged. Even watching avant-garde or "experimental"
dancers, I always feel that their movements are rehashed, coming out of a
repertoire of established avant grade movements. There was nothing of that in
Sally Silver's dancing. Every movement was itself, nothing more, nothing less.
The movements had a solidity, embodying the reality of gravity that run through
them and shaped them. That earth bound clarity was a thrilling thing to see. I
am looking forward to what she has to say about dance or anything else.
All the Empyre members, welcome to the fourth week.
Ciao,
Murat
_______________________________________________
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http://empyre.library.cornell.edu <http://empyre.library.cornell.edu/>
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http://empyre.library.cornell.edu <http://empyre.library.cornell.edu/>
--
Dr. Christopher T. Funkhouser
Program Director, Communication and Media
Department of Humanities
New Jersey Institute of Technology
University Heights
Newark, NJ 07102
http://web.njit.edu/~funkhous <http://web.njit.edu/%7Efunkhous>
funkh...@njit.edu <mailto:funkh...@njit.edu>
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