Agreed with both Mekius and Toma. What Hisham said can be summarized as "now that we delayed we can delay a bit more", this can lead to infinite, similar to "we do half, then half of the half..."
On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:29 AM, Toma <[email protected]> wrote: > Spot on Mekius. If we had a 6 month roadmap and an alpha release, we'd > have quite a bit of PR and certainly a bit of personal drive. Even > with ewl having releases it gives me drive to try to get the new theme > into the next major version. Im sure other devs would be energised by > a roadmap and release. > Toma. > > On 1/6/09, Nick Hughart <[email protected]> wrote: >> On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:40:42 -0500 >> "Hisham Mardam Bey" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:00 PM, Luchezar Petkov >>> > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri >>> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> I did basic categorization of enlightenment items and also remove >>> >>> the idea to drop 16bpp engines as we'll use it in our projects. >>> >>> >>> >>> most showstopper atm is file manager items, I think we can do >>> >>> without them so would flag them (all, or at least most of them) >>> >>> as "optional". >>> >> >>> >> I'd disagree with you here. A nice fm is really important to the >>> >> end users. Using external file browser is just an ugly way (imo) >>> >> and would 1) make less experienced users ask lots of questions >>> >> about how to deal with files when using E (and why (and how) >>> >> should they bother installing external fm) and 2) probably distro >>> >> packagers are going to pack E with Thunar or something and I don't >>> >> like that. I'm aware that the fm is probably one of the hardest >>> >> things to do in E17, but it is too important to just... not finish >>> >> it. >>> > >>> > But it's mostly working for "joe-the-user". Sure, having things like >>> > Ctrl-{x,c,v} is good, but not hard or blocking. >>> > >>> >>> I would just like to point something out quickly here. We (the EFL / >>> E17 team) have waited so long before doing a release that anything >>> that is not "perfect and done" is going to prove exactly what a lot of >>> the public thinks of EFL / E17; namely that its vapor ware that will >>> never be completed. We can't afford to release anything that is half >>> done after this extremely long time period of "working on E17". >> >> This is true, but it's also a misconception of the public that all this >> time was spent just working on E17. This is hardly the case and many >> people are already using the EFL and are mostly awaiting a release so >> they have a stable target to develop against. E17 has been a long time >> coming for sure, but I think people discount the amount of code that >> has been written and the small number of dedicated developers we have. >> >> And the use of the term vaporware is crap as well. Vaporware doesn't >> exist at all. E17 and the EFL both exist in a very real way and the >> lack of a stable release doesn't change that. If all the code was >> closed up and no one could use it, I could see people coming to this >> conclusion. Fact is people can use E17 because we have "released" it via >> CVS/SVN. Anyone who calls it vaporware is a moron. >> >>> >>> Had we done smaller incremental releases we could have afforded to >>> introduce incomplete features every now and then, right now, I >>> personally think we should take that bit of extra time to really >>> finish and polish anything that is incomplete or simply exclude it >>> from the release plan and release it afterward as an E17.1 or E17.2. >>> >> >> This is true. People may have been more willing to accept bugs and >> such, but it would have also put us in a position of offering a lot >> more documentation and support for users who couldn't debug to save >> their life, let alone explain their issue clear enough. By "releasing" >> a development version via a source repository you attempt to attract >> more developers then users so you can free yourself from answering user >> questions 24/7. Of course a lot of users have started using E17 and >> that's fine, but they hopefully realize that what they are using is not >> finished. People packaging doesn't help that, but we can at least >> focus more on development then support. >> >> Now with that said, an initial release will be good as soon as most of >> the bugs are ironed out. Feature wise I think we can sacrifice some of >> the more advanced and difficult to implement features for the initial >> release. For the release, we will need more documentation, tutorials, >> etc. It will also require some form of support, but the long time >> CVS/SVN users can help with that hopefully. >> >> In any case, I think the biggest thing a release will do is generate a >> bit of PR for E and hopefully bring a new rush of developers/users who >> are willing and able to help out wherever they can. If anything we will >> have a release that can be packaged and users can easily install. This >> will lower the amount of build questions that seem to consume so much >> of our support time now. So this could be very good for everyone, but >> like you said, we need to make sure it's pretty damn good or the >> backlash could be brutal. Even if we do make a quality release, I >> expect a lot of crap flinging from all angles just because people like >> to hate beautiful things :) >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> enlightenment-devel mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -------------------------------------- MSN: [email protected] Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
