On Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:50:08 -0500
Youness Alaoui <kakar...@kakaroto.homelinux.net> wrote:
> Carsten, a few people have noted their disappointment (and anger) at this
> being merged and some requested it to be reverted, you didn't even take the
> time to answer them and address their concerns.. Could you please take the
> time to do that, since you obviously had time to respond to David with such
> a long email, it looks bad for you to respond to only what you want and
> ignore everyone else.
He's a busy guy, and this is a serious issue that he can't just reply off the
top of his head like he's been doing with his other mails. Relax.
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:33 AM, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 10 Nov 2011 18:50:45 +1000 David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> said:
> >
> > > On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:33:42 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
> > > <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 07:23:27 +0100 (CET) Vincent Torri
> > > > <vto...@univ-evry.fr> said:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > attached. this was a sample edc that would be able to play audio,
> > > > > > not just single samples but whole sequences across multiple
> > > > > > tracks as well as control specific channels and tracks. it didn't
> > > > > > specify looping params yet or other additional stuff.
> > > > >
> > > > > i've never heard about that sound plan before the commit. The patch
> > > > > was not public and we could not have discussed about it before the
> > > > > commit. So I really don't like the way it came into edje.
> > > >
> > > > i'm not sure this is much different from anything else that goes on
> > > > in efl. i have done work for a decade+ without discussing patches on
> > > > the mailing list first. so have most developers. as such this patch
> > > > this time was going through me. the comments on the patch so far
> > > > havent actually commented on the edc api it adds at all which
> > > > everyone is up in arms about "for release". so since everyone
> > > > complaining isn't actually talking about that... i'll write it here
> > > > in short form. it adds: sounds {
> > > > sample {
> > > > name: "<NAME>" <ENCODING>;
> > > > source: "<SAMPLE_FILE>";
> > > > }
> > > > ...
> > > > tone: "<NAME>" <FREQ>;
> > > > ...
> > > > }
> > > > and 2 more actions:
> > > > PLAY_SAMPLE "<NAME>" <SPEED>;
> > > > PLAY_TONE "<NAME>" <DURATION>;
> > > >
> > > > that's it. unfortunately to make this WORK u need a chunk of infra
> > > > like being able to load and encode samples into edj files, decode
> > > > them, play and mix them, resample them, etc. all of which is opaque
> > > > to the api.
> > >
> > > /me picks a spot in this thread to actually discuss the API. Here
> > > seems the best.
> >
> > hooray! :)
> >
> > > A quick look over it, and the example, and the "plan", and it seems
> > > mostly sane. One thing that stands out straight away in the examples is
> > > the way that a bit of music was defined.
> > >
> > > First thing is that you are using something that looks like a typical
> > > tracker, which is fine in itself. Lots of people are familiar with
> > > that. It's a bit verbose though.
> >
> > well my hope actually was that later we can provide a mod/xm/s3m converter
> > that
> > can load one of these files and produce a bunch of edc to include. the only
> > reason i didn't go right to "use libmikmod and just inline mods in your
> > edj" was
> > that these mod formats don't support ogg/mp3 etc. style sample compression
> > and i
> > really want that for space efficiency reasons. i actually wasn't expecting
> > peolpe to write music in edc. it's POSSIBLE and to be honest - when i did
> > tracking you literallly did almost what the edc says in text. u arrow down
> > 7,
> > hit a key to play the sample at that speed (c-3/b-3/f#-2 etc.). you'd
> > literally just have the sound played at that time as the added bonus.. :)
> >
> > > I think it would be great to also provide an alternative that is more
> > > like MIDI, as that is also used by a lot of people. Have both, that
> > > would cover most things. Actually, the "plan" includes using a program
> > > per note, which is a bit more MIDI like, but even more verbose than the
> > > pattern style.
> >
> > a program per note would be bad. programs dont guarantee any timings of any
> > sort. if u want N channels synced you're in trouble. :( but if u want to
> > use
> > embryo.lua then u can write CODE to play but u'll be writing code to have a
> > timer and call play funcs... maybe from a passed in table/array.. but it'll
> > boil down to the same thing.
> >
> > can you expand on the midi thing with some details? last i knew of midi it
> > was
> > roughly the same as a single track of a tracker with no defined length -
> > just
> > commands to "play instr id X at note Y" like thngs - much like a tracker.
> >
> > > Can we cut the verbosity levels? Though I guess edje has a similar
> > > problem, and the solution is to go to embryo, or lua (which so far
> > > seems to end up being about half as verbose as embryo, though YMMV).
> >
> > i'd say the verbosity is on par with a tracker... is that bad?
> >
> > > Second is what you are doing to provide a scale. I see you are
> > > basically dividing an octave into 7 equal parts, then doing maths to
> > > arrive at the numbers to feed into the system. Now I'll admit that
> >
> > oh.. thats just making use of edje_cc's math handler. speed is 1.0 for
> > "play
> > note at given samplerate" ie - if sample is 44.1khz - then play at
> > 44.1khz. 2.0
> > == play at 88.2khz. 0.5 == play at 22.05khz etc. edje_cc can do inline math
> > expressions it evals at edje_cc time, so (3/7) becomes 0.428 - it's just me
> > making it more convenient. i guess it doesnt work well for < 1 but for > 1
> > it
> > works well.
> >
> > > musical scales are an entire morass of systems, but most western modern
> > > and classical music, going back a few centuries, uses the 12 tone equal
> > > temperament scale, or something very close to it. Except for blues and
> > > jazz, where things can get complicated. Non western music uses a
> > > variety of scales, so it's hard to do one size fits all. Like most of
> > > western culture though, it's becoming the most popular around the
> > > world. I have idea what traditional Korean music is like.
> >
> > yeah - i know. here come the catch. the actual note... is entirely
> > irrelevant.
> > the note means zip when it comes to the pitch of the sound as it's entirely
> > dependant on what u sample. what i do know is that its an exponential
> > scale.
> > play a sample at 1/2 its nominal rate, it drops 1 octave. play it at 2x its
> > nominal rate, it goes up 1 octave. repeat. (4x and its up 2 octaves, 1/4
> > and
> > its down 2 octaves). so as such notes mean nothing when u have generic
> > samples.
> > it's up to the "composer" to deal with that as all they want is RELATIVE
> > notes. :) from memory trackers would take the base samplerate to be "c-6"
> > (c
> > 6th octave) - we can provide macros or enums/short forms for all of the
> > notes
> > and octaves (c-6,d#6 etc.) but these too end up becoming just a sample
> > playback speed 0.0 -> 1.0 (nominal) -> etc. for higher pitch. :)
> >
> > > 12 tone equal temperament scale divides an octave into 12 equal
> > > parts based on the 12th root of 2, coz things are logarithmic. People
> > > doing basic music stuff should not have to deal with that sort of
> > > maths. lol
> > >
> > > On the other hand, I think the API Should provide something more like
> > > scientific pitch notation, as it's easy to write that in ASCII, if you
> > > use "b" to mean flat. Then the maths for 12 tone temperament scale is
> > > hidden, and music comes out sounding like it should. Could be done with
> > > some macros. So you could provide "notes" like -
> > >
> > > C C# D Eb E etc.
> >
> > as i said - we can make it part of the parser, but it still then boils
> > down to
> > a float value. at this stage thats a convenience, not a fundamental issue.
> > :)
> >
> > > Not sure about specifying octaves above or below the reference sample
> > > or tone, standard scientific pitch notation refers to absolute
> > > pitches. Note that this would be an option, people dealing with not so
> > > common scales can use that as an example, do their own research into
> > > the maths behind their scales, and still be able to use the correct
> > > numbers that suit them.
> >
> > trackers did it this:
> >
> > (octave 1)
> > C-1
> > C#1
> > D-1
> > D#1
> > E-1
> > F-1
> > F#1
> > G-1
> > G#1
> > A-1
> > A#1
> > B-1
> > (octave 2)
> > C-2
> > C#2
> > D-2
> > D#2
> > E-2
> > F-2
> > F#2
> > G-2
> > G#2
> > A-2
> > A#2
> > B-2
> >
> > etc. - all of these really equated to non-fine-grained ways of multiplying
> > the
> > nominal samplerate of the sample. if you wanted speeds other than the given
> > notes u use modifer commands that fine-tune adjusted samplerate from the
> > given
> > note. there ere 256 levels allowed between notes with the fine-tune cmd
> > (trackers allowed up to 256 commands/modifiers too). c-6 equated to "play
> > sample at its samplerate" and all other notes above ands below just
> > adjusted
> > playrate accordingly. we can do this - but it does boil down to playrates
> > relative to 1.0 :)
> >
> > > This is just a quick look. I'll go over it more later.
> > >
> > > --
> > > A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
> > > coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
> >
> >
> > --
> > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------
> > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com
> >
--
Mike Blumenkrantz
Zentific: Doctor recommended, mother approved.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RSA(R) Conference 2012
Save $700 by Nov 18
Register now
http://p.sf.net/sfu/rsa-sfdev2dev1
_______________________________________________
enlightenment-devel mailing list
enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
