On Wed, Nov 28, 2012 at 11:30 AM, David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, 28 Nov 2012 10:46:00 -0200 Bruno Dilly <bdi...@profusion.mobi> > wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:59 PM, David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 14:55:26 -0200 Bruno Dilly >> > <bdi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: >> > >> >> Hi David, >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 1:36 PM, David Seikel <onef...@gmail.com> >> >> wrote: >> >> > On Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:47:16 -0200 Bruno Dilly >> >> > <bdi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> we're are now making ephysics API more stable, almost all the >> >> >> features intended to go in are already implemented, so we are >> >> >> moving to the next step: >> >> >> adding support to physics on Edje. >> >> > >> >> > I'm gonna take a step back and consider the big picture from my >> >> > own point of view before delving into the details. >> >> > >> >> > First the simple question - have you considered Edje Lua as well >> >> > as Embryo? I'll be happy to write the Edje Lua bindings. >> >> >> >> I'm planning to work with Embryo because it's used by most of the >> >> scripts in our repository, and I always pick Embryo >> >> for private projects done here on Profusion, so I know it much >> >> better than Lua. But would be great to support physics on both. >> > >> > I'll add similar Edje Lua bindings after the Embryo bindings are >> > sorted out. >> > >> >> > Now the hard part. >> >> > >> >> > I'm heavily involved in SecondLife (SL) / OpenSim style online 3D >> >> > virtual worlds. Think MMOG where the users can edit the world in >> >> > world in real time, and it's not really a game, more a generic >> >> > platform. >> >> > >> >> > I'm working on both client and server side software. I REALLY >> >> > REALLY want to convert the existing crap client and server code >> >> > into something more sane based on EFL. So obviously 3D graphics, >> >> > 3D physics, and scripting of the world are important to me. >> >> > >> >> > Bullet physics I think is the way to go, so I'm on the same page >> >> > here. >> >> > >> >> > I know you have considered 3D stuff, so again, kinda on the same >> >> > page here. Though I wonder if ephysics is suitable for this sort >> >> > of work? >> >> >> >> EPhysics is focused on 2D games and GUI effects. >> >> >> >> Does it support 3 dimensions ? >> >> >> >> Yes, you can set velocities, impulses, forces in all three axis. >> >> The same for angular stuff. It will move in the 3d scene, deform >> >> in 3 dimensions, collide, etc. >> >> >> >> But... it was not focused on that, so some stuff that is really >> >> easy using ogre, for example, >> >> won't be on EPhysics. Using ogre you can add a new entity just >> >> loading a mesh. >> > >> > I've already been working with a library (libg3d, not to be confused >> > with g3d) for loading arbitrary meshes in dozens of formats, >> > locally or across the network. I'm not sure, but I think Ogre is >> > not so good at that, Irrlicht is a bit better, but libg3d is better >> > still. >> > >> >> Right now we don't support such thing. It's planned to be done in >> >> the future to create shapes. >> >> >> >> But things like applying textures will be harder yet, that's >> >> another thing to be improved >> >> to make ephysics useful for such scenarios. The way it is now, you >> >> would need to create an evas object for each face you would like to >> >> see rendered explicitly. It would >> >> be needed more improvements to set what points of a image texture >> >> would mapped by >> >> each face. And even the support to have evas objects per face is >> >> only implemented >> >> for primitive shapes. >> > >> > Ah, so no UV mapping yet. Evas object per face means a cube has >> > six of them? That gets a bit heavy for high poly count arbitrary >> > meshes. I guess your primitive shapes are simple cubes and things, >> > not SL style proceducal primitives? >> >> Evas map supports only four points. >> So we need an evas object per face. >> For meshes we create many proxies automatically and set to >> parts of the evas object associated to that using >> evas_map_point_image_uv_set >> >> You are right about our primitive shapes. >> >> > >> >> I will make a blog post (dedicated to you =) ) with current state >> >> of ephysics, and what >> >> should be expected until the end of this year. So it would >> >> be easier to see what's is easy to do with it right now, and it >> >> will be more accessible to other people too. >> > >> > I read and commented on that. >> > >> >> > >> >> > For graphics I have been looking at Ogre and Irrlicht. Irrlict >> >> > has my preference at the moment, mostly coz it's relatively light >> >> > weight and has good support for old hardware, including a decent >> >> > software renderer. People using unsuitable hardware for SL is a >> >> > common problem. Typically lots of people use student / business >> >> > class laptops, not the sort of things that are designed for 3D >> >> > games. Irrlicht has it's own 2D GUI stuff, but obviously I'd be >> >> > ripping that out and using EFL. Perhaps ephysics would be a >> >> > better choice for EFL based software? >> >> >> >> EPhysics has a glue for using Bullet with Evas that will do the job >> >> for most GUI effects >> >> you may want (2D games as well). But for 3D games and related most >> >> probably you'll >> >> be interested in one of this well established 3D engines. Ogre has >> >> OgreBullet to make >> >> it easier to develop stuff using Bullet Physics (not sure if this >> >> project is well maintained). >> >> I know people use to do merge Lua in the recipe as well. >> > >> > I'm guessing ephysics does not have fancy scene management stuff >> > for big scenes, or fancy things like particles, height maps, sky >> > boxes, clouds, etc? >> >> No, nothing of these. >> >> > >> >> I don't know much about Irrlicht. >> > >> > I'll likely experiment with it next weekend. >> > >> >> > So I guess my basic question is - would your ideas for ephysics >> >> > be suitable for online 3D virtual worlds, or is it limited to >> >> > simple, mostly 2D games? Perhaps some combination of ephysics >> >> > and Irrlicht is the way I should go? >> >> >> >> Uhmm... lights can be another limitation. I'm not sure these >> >> engines provide ray tracing, >> >> but we don't. We are stuck to evas map light calculations. No light >> >> reflection, refraction. >> >> Since light don't diffuse when reflecting other surfaces makes the >> >> contrast of light / shadow >> >> a bit ugly for such cases. Bodies between the light source and >> >> others won't produce shadows >> >> as well. >> > >> > Proper raytracing is usually not used for real time stuff, but it's >> > starting to come. SL needs water reflections and refraction, and >> > only recently got proper shadows. Ogre does great water, not sure >> > about Irrlicht yet. >> > >> >> We just support a single camera right now, no zoom in / out >> >> support, rotation ,etc. I know >> >> blender support such things. It's doable, but it's not planned to >> >> be done for now. >> > >> > One of the good things about SL is it's camera controls. I pride >> > myself in being expert with them, so this is very important to me. >> > >> >> I've never worked with any 3d engine, so not sure how far we are of >> >> the state of art of such >> >> frameworks, and what features you would need. If you will have >> >> time to work on EPhysics / Evas >> >> to support your needs, I'm here to help, but I'm not sure how far >> >> we could go to satisfy your needs >> >> and can be a bit frustrating for you if you have to migrate to >> >> Irrlicht after all. >> >> >> >> When you study a bit more about Ogre / Irrlicht and I show >> >> the current status of EPhysics we could evolve with this discussion >> >> and evaluate how far we could go. >> >> >> >> I can't see how EPhysics would help you using these graphical >> >> engines. If you are going to use Irrlicht or Ogre, I would say to >> >> forget about EPhysics. >> > >> > Well, my intention is to EFLize the SL stuff. That includes >> > integrating some decent 3D graphics engine. I'll look at things >> > like Irrlicht and the other stuff I'm looking at. Might be a good >> > idea to merge them with ephysics. I suspect Irrlicht and ephysics >> > could complement each other, no reason why the GUI can't have >> > physics as well as the complex 3D world it's on top of. B-) >> >> Yeah, you may be correct. >> We can try to elaborate more about what these libraries provide and >> that could be >> added to ephysics or evas. >> >> But for the next weeks I'll be focused on Edje. > > Fair enough. Nothing is moving quickly for me anyway, so no hurry.
oh, nice > >> When do you plan to start to EFLize the SL stuff ? > > I started last December and January with the EFL based LSL script > engine. That progressed quite fast, but got held up on the actual > interfacing to the existing OpenSim system. The person that said they > where going to do that vanished. OpenSim is C#, and I really was > looking forward to someone else handling that side of things. I don't > like C# much. lol > > Guess I'll have to do the C# stuff myself. Oh well. > > Since then I've mostly been busy with paid work and other things. > Slowly but surely I'm getting back into SL stuff. That's why I plan on > starting to work with Irrlicht next weekend, see if I can embed it into > an Elementary window. Can't call it Errlicht, that name is already > taken for the Eiffel bindings for Irrlicht. yeah, it would be a good name, indeed. > > I did manage a prototype SL user / grid manager with a little animated > 3D image in elementary though. I think it bit rotted. > > Also, I had ephysics and effb compiled on Ubuntu 10.04, but now that > I've upgraded to 12.04 it wont compile. Mind you there seems to be > four basic ways to compile bullet, maybe I picked the wrong one? I'll > have to try that again soon. I'll aim for an elementary window with > Irrlicht 3D world and ephysics 2D GUI soon, even if it does not do > much. I'm using ubuntu 12.04 too, and it is working fine (I'm using bullet rev2537). Built with cmake, looks like autotools is not well maintained. > > -- > A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants > coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Keep yourself connected to Go Parallel: > INSIGHTS What's next for parallel hardware, programming and related areas? > Interviews and blogs by thought leaders keep you ahead of the curve. > http://goparallel.sourceforge.net > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- Bruno Dilly Lead Developer ProFUSION embedded systems http://profusion.mobi ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Keep yourself connected to Go Parallel: INSIGHTS What's next for parallel hardware, programming and related areas? Interviews and blogs by thought leaders keep you ahead of the curve. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
