i found your mail so disturbing I'm refraining to reply to it publicly. tl;dr: rip elev8, the stillbirth
On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Cedric BAIL <cedric.b...@free.fr> wrote: > On Sat, May 4, 2013 at 12:03 AM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: > > On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:35 AM, Cedric BAIL <cedric.b...@free.fr> wrote: > >> On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri > >> <barbi...@profusion.mobi> wrote: > >> > It is not about generating code, people just don't get it > >> > >> For people to get it, we need many things to improve the situation in > >> Elev8. We need to polish its introduction in Enlightenment and provide > >> an easy way to distribute gadget/apps. Along with some documentation > >> that would help spread it and show case what it is good for. > >> In my opinion JS is not a tool good for everything. Any application > >> that require a team to maintain it over time with a more than 1000 > >> lines of code is going to suffer with it. Hopefully that still leave a > >> lot of application possible. I am thinking about all the configuration > >> tools here : connman, cups, transmission, ... It should also be good > >> for webservice integration like reddit and friends. And finally it > >> should be good for casual game to. We should be able to code elemines > >> or efbb more easily in Elev8 (We need an easy-game helper maybe :-)). > >> But JS wont be good for an integrated communication suite, an IDE, a > >> web browser, ... So we need tool to help the development of both side. > >> In the JS/EasyUI world, it is mostly integration with E and > >> distribution of application. In C, it is more an IDE that we need. > >> Both work are orthogonal in my opinion. > > > > This is complete nonsense. With JS you can modularize as well as in C, > > actually the language constructs makes it easier to modularize. > > No it doesn't. It force you to do it carefully. You have weird scope > rules and no type checking. That is a great source of pain for any one > working in team on the same JS. Oh, and you also have no compiler, > static analyzer, valgrind, callgrind and massif. Chrome has some good > tools like a debugger and some performance analysis, but far from what > you get by going native and elev8 has none of those. > > > The performance of a hundred thousand lines of code with JS is not an > > issue, as the sensitive areas are basically done in C (with elev8/efl), > > also the V8 can optimize quite well some loops and access, thus moot > point. > > Moreover, from the hundred thousand lines case, you're often executing > > small parts of it at the same time, afterall you can't fit much in one > user > > screen. > > Number of lines of code is all about maintenance of code, not > performance that's another topic. If you do any of those small games > and small application, you are not going to hit any performance issue > for sure and no maintenance issue to. But for anything bigger and you > are going to ask for a lot of trouble. Didn't you never ask yourself > why there is no open source php/html5 what so ever application that > does provide the same kind of tool that gmail/gtalk does ? It is an > imap client and a xmpp client, so nothing complex to implement... So > where are the alternative that work ? > > > As for your points "JS won't be good", let's review it with reality: > > - communication suite: the best communication suite out there is > written > > in HTML5 + JS, it is called Gmail + Gtalk > > - an IDE: adobe and others disagree, http://brackets.io/ is fully JS > and > > HTML5. Let's not forget that we both use Emacs, that is written mostly in > > Elisp, that is far from being as optimized as JS nowadays; > > - web browser: the browser itself is a very thin layer, I can't see > why > > a browser chrome couldn't be written in JS.. the heavy work is all in > > WebKit/Blink, you just need to get some signals and update the title, > > progress... > > The last time I checked, Gmail, Gtalk, Facebook and LinkedIn where > native on both iOS and Android. They did that because they had > performance, maintenance and debugging issue. I will let you review > those proper article. Also according to some Facebook article I read, > they needed only a very few number of people to redo it natively. I am > going to bet that their HTML5 team is way bigger to do the same task. > And for the general argument of HTML5 is so good, the first thing > I do when I switch my laptop to battery is to turn off my web browser > and powertop instantly gratify me of 2 more hours of autonomy. There > is still a long way to go to have a silver bullet there. And that's > only application done by the most HTML5 engaged company. If they can't > manage it properly, a small team is not going to make it. That's my > point here. > > Also you forget the main point of HTML5, the one that is the most > important, instant deployment. It is this feature alone that make this > technology so useful. And we have nothing close to that in elev8. > Elev8 will never takeoff, if we don't have at least that feature. > > I do think there is path to make that happen, because I do think > that elev8 is useful for a certain number of case. So I do think we > need to polish and prepare for inclusion Elev8 as an Enlightenment > module with a simple way to download and install new gadget. At the > same time preparing a distribution system for application would be > useful to (and should not be to different from distributing gadget). > At this stage, easy-connman is broken and doesn't work for me > anymore. Some of the example are in the same state. We also need to > automate the generation of binding up to elementary. Once we are > there, it will start to be useful and we will see the benefit of > adding new feature to Elev8 as application developers try to do new > stuff. But there is a lot of work to go there... and nobody is working > on it anymore. > -- > Cedric BAIL > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Get 100% visibility into Java/.NET code with AppDynamics Lite > It's a free troubleshooting tool designed for production > Get down to code-level detail for bottlenecks, with <2% overhead. > Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap2 > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri http://profusion.mobi embedded systems -------------------------------------- MSN: barbi...@gmail.com Skype: gsbarbieri Mobile: +55 (19) 9225-2202 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Introducing AppDynamics Lite, a free troubleshooting tool for Java/.NET Get 100% visibility into your production application - at no cost. Code-level diagnostics for performance bottlenecks with <2% overhead Download for free and get started troubleshooting in minutes. http://p.sf.net/sfu/appdyn_d2d_ap1 _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
