On Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:32:56 -0700 Michael Jennings <mjenni...@gmail.com> said:
> On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 2:15 AM, Tom Hacohen <t...@osg.samsung.com> wrote: > > > I don't think fake fluff and walking on eggshells around everyone are > > productive or beneficial. It takes me much more time to second guess > > every word I write and carefully word everything, where the information > > conveyed and the intent end up being exactly the same. I honestly think, > > that like you said, the problem is with the people getting insulted. > > When I talk to people, unless I know them very well, I try to give them > > the benefit of the doubt. This works great for me, I have no memory of > > ever being railed up by anyone who hasn't explicitly and undoubtedly > > tried to offend me and go personal. > > The so-called "fluff" is only "fake" if one fails to actually care > about people's feelings. Blaming the victim, and putting the onus on > the abused to respond differently rather than addressing one's own > abusive behavior, is itself further abuse. If a person is hurting > people's feelings with their words and causing others to feel badly > about themselves, THAT PERSON is the problem, and the solution is that > person changing THEMSELVES, not everyone else making excuses for them > and saying, "Well that's just so-and-so. He's an ass." Expecting > everyone else to change to accommodate one's own personal failings is > selfish, narcissistic, and just plain wrong. there is a limit. this argument here is about where than limit lies. if i say you you "i think your code has a bug -> here" and you respond by taking it as abuse/offensive because "how dare i say a single possibly negative thing about your code", then in my book, there is nothing i can do - your reaction is pretty much irrational. i'm not saying that is your reaction. just making an example. there is a line somewhere and for each person that line is somewhere different. some people get offended/upset/depressed very easily at the slightest pressure, others have very thick skin and can tough out almost any barrage. just because someone feels something does NOT mean everyone has to walk around on eggshells because of it. there is a reasonable effort you can make. there comes a point where the effort itself becomes absurd. i take the view of making a reasonable effort. if you are saying something negative (even if fully deserved and totally factual and correct) you can use language to soften the tone. you don't need to write an essay that buries the negative info in the middle of pages of text just to avoid some feelings, but just soften it a bit with a "i think" or "this could be better" etc. etc. - not hard to do. but if avoiding "feelings of hurt" means shutting your moth and saying NOTHING (eg there is a bug but you refuse to report it at all because any report of a bug could mean that the person reading it gets upset at someone even hinting that their project has a problem), then this has gone too far by a long shot. if it means having to bury a message in mountains of flowery praise just the minimize a negative message, then imho it has gone too far. there is a reasonable effort to be nice, civil and kind. that is all that is needed. so there is a limit. this discussion simply hilights how varyingly people perceive where that limit should be. > So what if it takes you more time to choose your words carefully? > That's time well spent if it saves others from having to endure the > sting of cyberbullying. > > I can say these things because I used to be the resident asshole of > this community. I used to be the one who was insulting, abusive, and > downright mean. I set a really shitty example, and I'm not proud of > who I used to be. But I've grown up now. And I encourage anyone else > who might be treating others badly to do the same. If I can do it, > anyone can. > > I think E very much needs a Code of Conduct, and its contents should > be considered carefully if its purpose is to make sure people are > treated fairly, particularly women and other under-represented > minorities, within the community. The Enlightenment project, despite > its name, has not been very enlightened over the years in the way it > has dealt with people who aren't straight white men, and that has > undoubtedly cost us contributors. (Yes, I know I bear a rather large > amount of responsibility for that. And that makes me very sad.) Much > of the reason has to do with our long-held tradition of harsh > criticism and verbal abuse in the face of perceived "stupidity" (which > was in most cases, and continues to be, more about ignorance, apathy, > and/or error). Even being blunt and harsh with people who claim they > can handle it, or might even prefer it, may still scare off potential > timid contributors. Everyone making the effort to treat each other > better will pay off handsomely in the long run! > > In the interest of improvement, I offer this: > http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_conduct_evaluations I > think it offers some valuable insights into what might be missing from > the current version as well as some alternatives from other projects > that have proven successful and effective. > > It might also be educational for the men in the community to read this > list of reasons why women don't tend to contribute to Wikipedia -- > many of their reasons resonate in the open source world as well! > http://suegardner.org/2011/02/19/nine-reasons-why-women-dont-edit-wikipedia-in-their-own-words/ > > Michael > > -- > Michael Jennings (a.k.a. KainX) http://www.kainx.org/ <m...@eterm.org> > Linux Server/Cluster Admin, LBL.gov Author, Eterm (www.eterm.org) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Monitor 25 network devices or servers for free with OpManager! > OpManager is web-based network management software that monitors > network devices and physical & virtual servers, alerts via email & sms > for fault. Monitor 25 devices for free with no restriction. Download now > http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/292181274;119417398;o > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Monitor 25 network devices or servers for free with OpManager! OpManager is web-based network management software that monitors network devices and physical & virtual servers, alerts via email & sms for fault. Monitor 25 devices for free with no restriction. Download now http://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/292181274;119417398;o _______________________________________________ enlightenment-devel mailing list enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel
