Hi, Cool so if I understand that we have agreement that complying with the FDO icon naming is OK to do? I think if that's the case we have much more flexibility going forward. No need to include the app icon portion but otherwise would we also use the FDO icon names as an indication of what a "complete" set looks like?
Thanks guys :) Andy On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 at 13:08, Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> wrote: > On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 10:07:14 +0000 Andrew Williams <a...@andywilliams.me> > said: > > > Apologies but I disagree with this last email. > > >From the elementary docs (and Tizen too...) > > - "freedesktop.org defines the standard icon names such as "home", > > "network", etc." > > - "The *name* given as a parameter is one of these "keys", and is used to > > look in the freedesktop.org paths and elementary theme." > > > > So it's clear that the intent is to mimic fdo icons in some way and will > > support their naming lookups. > > The top of the page does list a short number of icon names that elm > > supports but it is incomplete / out of date. > > > > My question is why would we not go with a standard naming convention? > It's > > been in place for 10 years and pretty much everyone else uses it. > > If we can use FDO naming then other environment's icon sets will work for > > us too - bonus no? > > > > If we do the "one that works everywhere" in isolation we will back > > ourselves into a not-fdo-compliant place which will cause additional work > > later. Given that it's been years and we don't have a nearly complete > icon > > set (judging by application requirements, not FDO) then I think we need > to > > be a little more realistic about te need to be compliant. > > i said nothing about having a different naming convention - i simply said > make > the default theme complete. i dont much care what the names are. make it > usefully complete. > > > Thanks, > > Andrew > > > > On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 at 02:14 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> > wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 12:22:21 +0100 marcel-hollerb...@t-online.de said: > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 06:28:45PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 07:24:55 +0100 marcel-hollerb...@t-online.de > said: > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:45:59AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:50:34 +0000 Andrew Williams > > > > > > > <a...@andywilliams.me> said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can we pick this up again please? if neither 1) nor 2) are > > > likely to > > > > > > > > happen then I feel the requirement to add 3) so that each app > > > can add > > > > > > > > 1 line to do fdo_elementary lookups for the whole app. > > > > > > > > I'm now looking at menus that are a mix of icons because, as > far > > > as I > > > > > > > > can tell, there's no API for setting the lookup order for > > > menu_item > > > > > > > > icons. Ether way this feels like it's really > anti-new-developers > > > - we > > > > > > > > don't have a complete icon set and I think we need to deal > with > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either 2) or 3) are changes that I feel have become > essential if > > > we > > > > > > > > can't get 1) resolved in the next EFL release or two... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we need 1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is because on things like tizen there will be ZERO FDO > icon > > > sets. > > > > > > > ever. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know if this is the right way to go, for example numix has > > > 20000 > > > > > > files, do you really want to import that abount of icons into a > > > theme? > > > > > > > > > > that's irrelevant. there will be systems with zero fdo icon themes > - > > > in fact > > > > > its the MAJOR os shipping more instances of efl than all other > distros > > > > > combined. tizen has shipped millions of devices now. the majority > case > > > > > doesnt have an fdo theme. then there is no choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said only use fdo themes, my idea is to let the user decided > a > > > > fdo theme or the icon theme in the elm-theme. if there is no fdo > theme > > > > we have to fallback on the elm-theme. > > > > > > > > > just because numix has 20000 files does not mean we need that many > in > > > an elm > > > > > theme - we NEED only a single icon per type. we don't need 10 > copies > > > (one > > > > > per size). > > > > > > > > > > > What about adding a config option to elementary where you can > > > > > > choose a icon theme installed on your system or use the default > one > > > from > > > > > > the theme. If you choose the default theme, elm_icon will use the > > > theme > > > > > > lookup if you have choosen a fdo icon set elm_icon is using the > fdo > > > > > > lookup. > > > > > > > > > > consistency. then its not going to be consistent and follow the > theme > > > look. > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should give the decision default or fdo lookup into > the > > > hand > > > > > > of the user, since its their style-decition. > > > > > > And the elementary config looks like a good place to add > > > > > > them, since all elm apps will look the same. > > > > > > > > > > atm FIRST is to ensure that there is an icon in the elm theme > FIRST. so > > > > > there is always one provided regardless of fdo themes. once we have > > > that - > > > > > then we can consider something else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it should be the other way arround, the default theme has > > > > missing icons and wrong names. > > > > > > what "wrong names"? it has icon names of its own. these are not even > > > pretending > > > to follow any fdo standard. so how can they be wrong? > > > > > > > We can also keep the look consistent if we have a central setted > > > > icon-theme, since we dont do fallback across different theme. > > > > > > > > > fdo themes have some major drawbacks vs edje: > > > > > > > > > > 1. can't do animation > > > > > 2. can't re-use imagery from other parts of the theme and make > icons > > > that > > > > > are "composed" of various elements put together like many icons are > > > > > 3. can't do lossy compression for high-res icons with alpha > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why I would like to give the possibility "default" (the icons > > > > shiped with the theme) or a fdo icon set. I guess most people like to > > > > have a fdo theme instead of the default icon theme. If someone wants > to > > > > have icons with animations etc. he can put these in a elm-theme and > use > > > > them. > > > > > > do the one that works everywhere first. > > > > > > > > > > > Any strong feelings on how we deal with the current state of > > > play? > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 at 10:39 Andrew Williams < > > > a...@andywilliams.me> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with this, I can't ship any large featured app > using > > > elm > > > > > > > > > icons at this time, I have to use an fdo lookup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If elm were a complete icon theme (including all E, efm and > > > media > > > > > > > > > player etc icons) the current ordering makes sense - but > not > > > until > > > > > > > > > then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore I propose for efl 1.16 we need either: > > > > > > > > > 1) import a complete icon theme that works; or > > > > > > > > > 2) change the lookup order so efl apps don't look a mess by > > > default. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And possibly in either case: > > > > > > > > > 3) add an elm api to set strategy for the whole app > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Primarily I want an elm app to be consistent in itself but > > > overall > > > > > > > > > it should be consistent with E or the desktop it's running > > > within. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:39 Stephen Houston < > > > smhousto...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> At any rate, Raster's reasoning is only good if the theme > > > provides > > > > > > > > >> a complete icon set... so for that to make sense right > now, > > > someone > > > > > > > > >> needs to finish the elm theme icon set or as Davide said > just > > > > > > > > >> import an already complete icon set into the elm theme. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Davide Andreoli > > > > > > > > >> <d...@gurumeditation.it> wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > 2015-08-11 2:14 GMT+02:00 Carsten Haitzler > > > > > > > > >> > <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:53:08 -0500 Stephen Houston < > > > > > > > > >> > smhousto...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > >> > > said: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I'm sure this has been discussed before but I feel > the > > > need > > > > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > > > > >> bring it > > > > > > > > >> > > up > > > > > > > > >> > > > again. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > It is super annoying that when requesting a standard > > > icon, > > > > > > > > >> > > > you will > > > > > > > > >> > > always > > > > > > > > >> > > > get the blue icon from Elementary first if it > exists, > > > and > > > > > > > > >> > > > then it > > > > > > > > >> falls > > > > > > > > >> > > > back on the icon theme. I feel like this should be > > > exactly > > > > > > > > >> > > > the > > > > > > > > >> > opposite. > > > > > > > > >> > > > Check the icon theme first and fallback on > Elementary's > > > blue > > > > > > > > >> > > > icons > > > > > > > > >> if > > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > > >> > > > user's icon theme doesn't have the requested > standard > > > icon. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > For instance: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-55c4c1af28ccf5.97362633.jpg > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The blue slideshow icon is out of place here. It > > > should go > > > > > > > > >> > > > with the > > > > > > > > >> > icon > > > > > > > > >> > > > theme first instead of finding that icon in > Elementary. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > not changing. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > 1. breaks default behavior of an icon object. since > icons > > > come > > > > > > > > >> > > from > > > > > > > > >> theme > > > > > > > > >> > > an > > > > > > > > >> > > app dev can customize by doing a theme overlay and > thus > > > expect > > > > > > > > >> > > his > > > > > > > > >> icons > > > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > > > >> > > appear - but if default behavior changes then his app > > > loses HIS > > > > > > > > >> > > icons. > > > > > > > > >> > this > > > > > > > > >> > > is a break. no. not changing. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > I quite disagree here, but we need to split in two > different > > > > > > > > >> > scenario: > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > A: the developer want to provide an icon that will never > > > change > > > > > > > > >> (regardless > > > > > > > > >> > of the user elm theme in use). This is usually wrong, > > > unless you > > > > > > > > >> > are providing a full theme overlay inside your app (my > media > > > > > > > > >> > center is > > > > > > > > >> an > > > > > > > > >> > example), otherwise your icon will looks wrong on other > elm > > > > > > > > >> > themes that the user may be using. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > B: the developer want to make a themable app that will > > > always > > > > > > > > >> > looks good for every elm theme. This is the "normal" > > > behavior of > > > > > > > > >> > desktop > > > > > > > > >> applications, > > > > > > > > >> > and at the moment is quite impossible to aquire using > elm. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > I think both scenario can be done using elm: the > sceanrio B > > > is > > > > > > > > >> > coded > > > > > > > > >> using > > > > > > > > >> > elm_icon_standard_set(ic, "a-fdo-standard-name") > > > > > > > > >> > While the scenario A should be coded a little different: > > > the dev > > > > > > > > >> > can set the icon > > > > > > > > >> > using elm_icon_file_set(ic, theme_file, "icon_name") or > also > > > > > > > > >> > using standard_set > > > > > > > > >> > but not using fdo names, fe: elm_icon_standard_set(ic, > > > > > > > > >> > "my_custom_icon_name") > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > So I think there are no breackage involved, unless an > app is > > > > > > > > >> > using > > > > > > > > >> standard > > > > > > > > >> > fdo name while wanted only the custom icon to be > displayed. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > 2. the point is to have icons match the THEME... not > some > > > fdo > > > > > > > > >> > > icon > > > > > > > > >> theme. > > > > > > > > >> > > icons > > > > > > > > >> > > will almost always look out of place in a theme being > > > different > > > > > > > > >> > style/color > > > > > > > > >> > > etc. etc. and so people are eternally hunting for a > > > "matching > > > > > > > > >> > > icon > > > > > > > > >> theme" > > > > > > > > >> > > separately to their theme. the whole POINT of an edj > file > > > is to > > > > > > > > >> > > have a single > > > > > > > > >> > > unified theme with everything - widgets and wm and > icons > > > etc. > > > > > > > > >> > > your > > > > > > > > >> point > > > > > > > > >> > > violates this entire concept. > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > > > > > > > >> > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I > am" > > > > > > > > >> -------------- > > > > > > > > >> > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) > ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >> > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > >> > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >> > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > >> > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > >> > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > >> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > > Performance > > > > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just > $35/Month > > > > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective > actions > > > now > > > > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup > Now! > > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > -------------- > > > > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > > Performance > > > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just > $35/Month > > > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective > actions now > > > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup > Now! > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > > Performance > > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions > now > > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > -------------- > > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > Performance > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -------------- > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > -- > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. 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