On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 19:07:44 +0100 Davide Andreoli <d...@gurumeditation.it> said:
> 2016-02-16 14:09 GMT+01:00 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 10:07:14 +0000 Andrew Williams <a...@andywilliams.me> > > said: > > > > > Apologies but I disagree with this last email. > > > >From the elementary docs (and Tizen too...) > > > - "freedesktop.org defines the standard icon names such as "home", > > > "network", etc." > > > - "The *name* given as a parameter is one of these "keys", and is used to > > > look in the freedesktop.org paths and elementary theme." > > > > > > So it's clear that the intent is to mimic fdo icons in some way and will > > > support their naming lookups. > > > The top of the page does list a short number of icon names that elm > > > supports but it is incomplete / out of date. > > > > > > My question is why would we not go with a standard naming convention? > > It's > > > been in place for 10 years and pretty much everyone else uses it. > > > If we can use FDO naming then other environment's icon sets will work for > > > us too - bonus no? > > > > > > If we do the "one that works everywhere" in isolation we will back > > > ourselves into a not-fdo-compliant place which will cause additional work > > > later. Given that it's been years and we don't have a nearly complete > > icon > > > set (judging by application requirements, not FDO) then I think we need > > to > > > be a little more realistic about te need to be compliant. > > > > i said nothing about having a different naming convention - i simply said > > make > > the default theme complete. i dont much care what the names are. make it > > usefully complete. > > > > ok, at least seems we all agree that we need a full icon theme in elm :) voila. ALL i said is that elm needs to have this theme in place (full - minus actual app icons - we dont need those) FIRST. consider being able to override it by looking at xdg/fdo icon theme instead of elm theme AFTER elm has a full one first :) solve the "it will work EVERYWHERE" code path first. :) > I can take care of this work in this release cycle, but we need to agree the > style of icons we want. reality is eventually they'll get redrawn. :) it just will take time. > I can easly import the work done by wfx at https://github.com/wfx/eicons in > the default elm theme, also using fdo names. those are a great start > Do we like those icons? are we sure we want all the icons to be bluish? > usually I like the bluish version when they are small (like in menus), but > I'm > not sure they looks good when used bigger (like in toolbar). for now, this will do. :) > > > Thanks, > > > Andrew > > > > > > On Tue, 16 Feb 2016 at 02:14 Carsten Haitzler <ras...@rasterman.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 12:22:21 +0100 marcel-hollerb...@t-online.de said: > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 06:28:45PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2016 07:24:55 +0100 marcel-hollerb...@t-online.de > > said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 11:45:59AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, 11 Feb 2016 15:50:34 +0000 Andrew Williams > > > > > > > > <a...@andywilliams.me> said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Can we pick this up again please? if neither 1) nor 2) are > > > > likely to > > > > > > > > > happen then I feel the requirement to add 3) so that each app > > > > can add > > > > > > > > > 1 line to do fdo_elementary lookups for the whole app. > > > > > > > > > I'm now looking at menus that are a mix of icons because, as > > far > > > > as I > > > > > > > > > can tell, there's no API for setting the lookup order for > > > > menu_item > > > > > > > > > icons. Ether way this feels like it's really > > anti-new-developers > > > > - we > > > > > > > > > don't have a complete icon set and I think we need to deal > > with > > > > that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Either 2) or 3) are changes that I feel have become > > essential if > > > > we > > > > > > > > > can't get 1) resolved in the next EFL release or two... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > we need 1) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > this is because on things like tizen there will be ZERO FDO > > icon > > > > sets. > > > > > > > > ever. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont know if this is the right way to go, for example numix has > > > > 20000 > > > > > > > files, do you really want to import that abount of icons into a > > > > theme? > > > > > > > > > > > > that's irrelevant. there will be systems with zero fdo icon themes > > - > > > > in fact > > > > > > its the MAJOR os shipping more instances of efl than all other > > distros > > > > > > combined. tizen has shipped millions of devices now. the majority > > case > > > > > > doesnt have an fdo theme. then there is no choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I never said only use fdo themes, my idea is to let the user decided > > a > > > > > fdo theme or the icon theme in the elm-theme. if there is no fdo > > theme > > > > > we have to fallback on the elm-theme. > > > > > > > > > > > just because numix has 20000 files does not mean we need that many > > in > > > > an elm > > > > > > theme - we NEED only a single icon per type. we don't need 10 > > copies > > > > (one > > > > > > per size). > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about adding a config option to elementary where you can > > > > > > > choose a icon theme installed on your system or use the default > > one > > > > from > > > > > > > the theme. If you choose the default theme, elm_icon will use the > > > > theme > > > > > > > lookup if you have choosen a fdo icon set elm_icon is using the > > fdo > > > > > > > lookup. > > > > > > > > > > > > consistency. then its not going to be consistent and follow the > > theme > > > > look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we should give the decision default or fdo lookup into > > the > > > > hand > > > > > > > of the user, since its their style-decition. > > > > > > > And the elementary config looks like a good place to add > > > > > > > them, since all elm apps will look the same. > > > > > > > > > > > > atm FIRST is to ensure that there is an icon in the elm theme > > FIRST. so > > > > > > there is always one provided regardless of fdo themes. once we have > > > > that - > > > > > > then we can consider something else. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think it should be the other way arround, the default theme has > > > > > missing icons and wrong names. > > > > > > > > what "wrong names"? it has icon names of its own. these are not even > > > > pretending > > > > to follow any fdo standard. so how can they be wrong? > > > > > > > > > We can also keep the look consistent if we have a central setted > > > > > icon-theme, since we dont do fallback across different theme. > > > > > > > > > > > fdo themes have some major drawbacks vs edje: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. can't do animation > > > > > > 2. can't re-use imagery from other parts of the theme and make > > icons > > > > that > > > > > > are "composed" of various elements put together like many icons are > > > > > > 3. can't do lossy compression for high-res icons with alpha > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats why I would like to give the possibility "default" (the icons > > > > > shiped with the theme) or a fdo icon set. I guess most people like to > > > > > have a fdo theme instead of the default icon theme. If someone wants > > to > > > > > have icons with animations etc. he can put these in a elm-theme and > > use > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > do the one that works everywhere first. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Any strong feelings on how we deal with the current state of > > > > play? > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 at 10:39 Andrew Williams < > > > > a...@andywilliams.me> > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree with this, I can't ship any large featured app > > using > > > > elm > > > > > > > > > > icons at this time, I have to use an fdo lookup. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If elm were a complete icon theme (including all E, efm and > > > > media > > > > > > > > > > player etc icons) the current ordering makes sense - but > > not > > > > until > > > > > > > > > > then. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore I propose for efl 1.16 we need either: > > > > > > > > > > 1) import a complete icon theme that works; or > > > > > > > > > > 2) change the lookup order so efl apps don't look a mess by > > > > default. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And possibly in either case: > > > > > > > > > > 3) add an elm api to set strategy for the whole app > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Primarily I want an elm app to be consistent in itself but > > > > overall > > > > > > > > > > it should be consistent with E or the desktop it's running > > > > within. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Andy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 11 Aug 2015 15:39 Stephen Houston < > > > > smhousto...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> At any rate, Raster's reasoning is only good if the theme > > > > provides > > > > > > > > > >> a complete icon set... so for that to make sense right > > now, > > > > someone > > > > > > > > > >> needs to finish the elm theme icon set or as Davide said > > just > > > > > > > > > >> import an already complete icon set into the elm theme. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:35 AM, Davide Andreoli > > > > > > > > > >> <d...@gurumeditation.it> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > 2015-08-11 2:14 GMT+02:00 Carsten Haitzler > > > > > > > > > >> > <ras...@rasterman.com>: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > On Mon, 10 Aug 2015 09:53:08 -0500 Stephen Houston < > > > > > > > > > >> > smhousto...@gmail.com> > > > > > > > > > >> > > said: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > I'm sure this has been discussed before but I feel > > the > > > > need > > > > > > > > > >> > > > to > > > > > > > > > >> bring it > > > > > > > > > >> > > up > > > > > > > > > >> > > > again. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > It is super annoying that when requesting a standard > > > > icon, > > > > > > > > > >> > > > you will > > > > > > > > > >> > > always > > > > > > > > > >> > > > get the blue icon from Elementary first if it > > exists, > > > > and > > > > > > > > > >> > > > then it > > > > > > > > > >> falls > > > > > > > > > >> > > > back on the icon theme. I feel like this should be > > > > exactly > > > > > > > > > >> > > > the > > > > > > > > > >> > opposite. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Check the icon theme first and fallback on > > Elementary's > > > > blue > > > > > > > > > >> > > > icons > > > > > > > > > >> if > > > > > > > > > >> > the > > > > > > > > > >> > > > user's icon theme doesn't have the requested > > standard > > > > icon. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > For instance: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-55c4c1af28ccf5.97362633.jpg > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > The blue slideshow icon is out of place here. It > > > > should go > > > > > > > > > >> > > > with the > > > > > > > > > >> > icon > > > > > > > > > >> > > > theme first instead of finding that icon in > > Elementary. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Thoughts? > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > not changing. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > 1. breaks default behavior of an icon object. since > > icons > > > > come > > > > > > > > > >> > > from > > > > > > > > > >> theme > > > > > > > > > >> > > an > > > > > > > > > >> > > app dev can customize by doing a theme overlay and > > thus > > > > expect > > > > > > > > > >> > > his > > > > > > > > > >> icons > > > > > > > > > >> > to > > > > > > > > > >> > > appear - but if default behavior changes then his app > > > > loses HIS > > > > > > > > > >> > > icons. > > > > > > > > > >> > this > > > > > > > > > >> > > is a break. no. not changing. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I quite disagree here, but we need to split in two > > different > > > > > > > > > >> > scenario: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > A: the developer want to provide an icon that will never > > > > change > > > > > > > > > >> (regardless > > > > > > > > > >> > of the user elm theme in use). This is usually wrong, > > > > unless you > > > > > > > > > >> > are providing a full theme overlay inside your app (my > > media > > > > > > > > > >> > center is > > > > > > > > > >> an > > > > > > > > > >> > example), otherwise your icon will looks wrong on other > > elm > > > > > > > > > >> > themes that the user may be using. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > B: the developer want to make a themable app that will > > > > always > > > > > > > > > >> > looks good for every elm theme. This is the "normal" > > > > behavior of > > > > > > > > > >> > desktop > > > > > > > > > >> applications, > > > > > > > > > >> > and at the moment is quite impossible to aquire using > > elm. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > I think both scenario can be done using elm: the > > sceanrio B > > > > is > > > > > > > > > >> > coded > > > > > > > > > >> using > > > > > > > > > >> > elm_icon_standard_set(ic, "a-fdo-standard-name") > > > > > > > > > >> > While the scenario A should be coded a little different: > > > > the dev > > > > > > > > > >> > can set the icon > > > > > > > > > >> > using elm_icon_file_set(ic, theme_file, "icon_name") or > > also > > > > > > > > > >> > using standard_set > > > > > > > > > >> > but not using fdo names, fe: elm_icon_standard_set(ic, > > > > > > > > > >> > "my_custom_icon_name") > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > So I think there are no breackage involved, unless an > > app is > > > > > > > > > >> > using > > > > > > > > > >> standard > > > > > > > > > >> > fdo name while wanted only the custom icon to be > > displayed. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > 2. the point is to have icons match the THEME... not > > some > > > > fdo > > > > > > > > > >> > > icon > > > > > > > > > >> theme. > > > > > > > > > >> > > icons > > > > > > > > > >> > > will almost always look out of place in a theme being > > > > different > > > > > > > > > >> > style/color > > > > > > > > > >> > > etc. etc. and so people are eternally hunting for a > > > > "matching > > > > > > > > > >> > > icon > > > > > > > > > >> theme" > > > > > > > > > >> > > separately to their theme. the whole POINT of an edj > > file > > > > is to > > > > > > > > > >> > > have a single > > > > > > > > > >> > > unified theme with everything - widgets and wm and > > icons > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > >> > > your > > > > > > > > > >> point > > > > > > > > > >> > > violates this entire concept. > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > > > > > > > > >> > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I > > am" > > > > > > > > > >> -------------- > > > > > > > > > >> > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) > > ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >> > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > > >> > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > >> > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >> > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > > >> > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > >> enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > > >> enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > > > Performance > > > > > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just > > $35/Month > > > > > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective > > actions > > > > now > > > > > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup > > Now! > > > > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > > -------------- > > > > > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > > > Performance > > > > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just > > $35/Month > > > > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective > > actions now > > > > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup > > Now! > > > > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > > > Performance > > > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions > > now > > > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > > > -------------- > > > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application > > Performance > > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > > -------------- > > > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance > > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance > > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > > > > > > > -- > > ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- > > The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance > > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-devel mailing list > > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance > APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month > Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now > Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now! > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140 > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-devel mailing list > enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-devel > -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. 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