Yes of course. I don't plan to stick with this release snapshot forever though. I'm also assuming we will be seeing new E17 snapshots sometime before another decade passes to address bugs in the release.
Eventually "compositing only" will be the only option. On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 2:00 PM, Ulisses Furquim <ulis...@profusion.mobi>wrote: > Hi, > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Jeff Hoogland <jeffhoogl...@linux.com> > wrote: > > Stable versions of what? Bodhi currently uses EFL 1.7.5 and the stable > E17 > > release. > > With those versions you can disable compositing, right? > > -- Ulisses > > > On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Ulisses Furquim <ulis...@profusion.mobi > >wrote: > > > >> Hi Jeff, > >> > >> On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:29 PM, Jeff Hoogland <jeffhoogl...@linux.com> > >> wrote: > >> > I understand all those reasons, the difference is I'm just going to > have > >> to > >> > start telling people like this -> > >> > > >> > > >> > http://forums.bodhilinux.com/index.php?/topic/7701-enlightenment-cpu-usage-at-98-on-intel-i810/ > >> > > >> > That they simply can't use E17 because it will eat all of their CPU > all > >> the > >> > time with compositing :-/ > >> > > >> > Personally I use compositing on all my system, it looks great in > general. > >> > >> What about stable versions? > >> > >> -- Ulisses > >> > >> > On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Carsten Haitzler < > ras...@rasterman.com > >> >wrote: > >> > > >> >> On Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:51:01 -0600 Jeff Hoogland > <jeffhoogl...@linux.com > >> > > >> >> said: > >> >> > >> >> > Raster had mentioned on IRC last night that compositing had become > >> >> > non-optional in SVN builds already. What is the reason for this? I > >> >> > understand compositing is the future - but forcing it on everyone > it > >> >> going > >> >> > to make E much less usable on legacy hardware - a place where it > >> really > >> >> > shines. > >> >> > >> >> reasons: > >> >> > >> >> 1. aesthetics. having to "design" for both compositing and > >> non-compositing > >> >> is > >> >> limiting and painful. > >> >> 2. code simplification - this cuts down mem usage and resource usage > >> where > >> >> we > >> >> make non-compositing code paths redundant (never loaded) or even get > >> >> totally > >> >> removed. it also makes e and efl's code MUCH easier to maintain as we > >> cut > >> >> out a > >> >> whole class of pain. > >> >> 3. if you do non-compositing, then your other option is avoid > anything > >> that > >> >> isnt a pure rectangle.. or use shapes... do u have any idea how > >> inefficient > >> >> shaped windows are? do you know how they are implemented? > compositing is > >> >> MORE > >> >> efficient than shaped windows except for the most trivial shape > cases. > >> it > >> >> also > >> >> has fewer artefacts. don't make me do a rundown on the actual > >> >> implementation of > >> >> xshape etc... i have little enough time as-is. take if from someone > who > >> >> started > >> >> doing x shape stuff back in 1996... > >> >> 4. wayland - we cant sensibly become a wayland compositor without > ALWAYS > >> >> compositing. > >> >> 5. compositing only allows us to move content out of windows (eg the > >> >> container > >> >> bg window that holds a canvas with wallpaper and your efm icons etc.) > >> and > >> >> merge > >> >> it into the COMPOSITOR canvas. this reduces mem footrpint > drastically - > >> >> example. you have a 1600x1200 screen. you have a 1600x1200 > walllpaper. e > >> >> will > >> >> keep the rgba pixels for that wallpaper inside its memory because it > >> >> renders > >> >> them to the bg canvas with software. this bg canvas is a > window..that is > >> >> composited.. this means this window consumes at least 1 pixmap of > >> memory... > >> >> that means 1600x1200 (8mb) for the original PLUS 8mb for the > composited > >> >> pixmap.. to store essentially the same content PLUS some icons. if we > >> move > >> >> it > >> >> into the compositor canvas we get: > >> >> > >> >> 1. wallpaper image is rendered and scaled by the same enigne as the > >> >> compositor > >> >> (sw or gl). > >> >> 2. only the original wp image is needed, not an intermediate window > >> >> pixmap. we > >> >> save 8mb of memory insnantly. > >> >> 3. evas already has caches for scaled data and can throw out original > >> data > >> >> etc. > >> >> so we also recycle this infra directly. > >> >> 4. "animated" wallpapers now get faster as they render with gl... as > do > >> >> wallpaper transitions etc. > >> >> > >> >> repeat for everything else in e17... it all goes into the compositor > >> canvas > >> >> EXCEPT "window content" (client windows - be they e's internal > dialogs > >> or > >> >> external apps - to e's compositor these will just be image objects - > >> they > >> >> currently are, but they also include the frame window sections > >> >> (borders/titles) > >> >> provided by e - these will be split out to live in the canvas). > >> >> 6. if objects move into the comp canvas - like window borders, menus, > >> >> shelves... we solve the clipping problem. right now borders, shelves, > >> menus > >> >> etc. get clipped by their window. that's life. once they live in the > >> comp > >> >> canvas they can extend beyond their object bounds (add glows, > shadows, > >> >> other > >> >> effects or pixels/imagery extending beyond their bounds). this comes > for > >> >> "free" > >> >> when moving into evas and out of a window and that is part of the > plan > >> - to > >> >> migrate content all into the compositor canvas. > >> >> 7. i can go on... (tldr time - you asked "why" so read, or never ask > >> again > >> >> :)) > >> >> this has been talked about a lot amongst devs already. it's not > possible > >> >> to do > >> >> non-compositing AND compositing and move forward. we have little > enough > >> >> developer resources as-is. this simplifies and allows us to have a > >> future. > >> >> the > >> >> fact that we BOTHERED to have fast software compositing is a big > part of > >> >> the > >> >> commitment to make compositing work for EVERYONE - you DONT need a > >> >> "supported > >> >> gpu + driver" to use it. yes - it means extra system load, and > slowdowns > >> >> for > >> >> those avoiding compositing now entirely - but that's the price of > >> progress. > >> >> we've "lowered" the cost, but it isn't "free". no one is totally LEFT > >> OUT. > >> >> the > >> >> software compositor works even in 16bpp (with extra overhead though). > >> and > >> >> 8bpp .. well ok - sorry 8bpp people. if you can only do 8bpp then > we're > >> >> leaving > >> >> you behind. sorry. 1995 will be happy to keep you. :( we CAN reduce > >> >> overhead of > >> >> software compositing still - it's heavy because we HAVE to copy > pixels > >> >> from x > >> >> (read data via x(shm)getimage). we can't fix that unless we can get a > >> >> zero-copy > >> >> path. x allows us no such path for software (shared pixmaps are not > an > >> >> option > >> >> fyi). we COULD shortcut this path - but we need to do it at BOTH > sides > >> of > >> >> the > >> >> pipeline. that means modify toolkits/apps. we CAN modify efl to > bypass x > >> >> entirely for rendering and only use it for focus/input/events and > use a > >> >> back-channel shared memory system to export pixel buffers direct from > >> >> client to > >> >> comp. it's doable. we'd cut overhead in half for copies as we... get > >> rid of > >> >> them (we only have now rendering overehead). *IF* comp also bypasses > >> x's fb > >> >> management and goes direct to fbdev or kms... and does evil stuff... > we > >> can > >> >> ALSO make "rendered pixel uploads" totally free. ie zero copy buffer > >> >> swaps. - > >> >> then the ONLY overhead we have is filling the comp "backbuffer". what > >> you > >> >> may > >> >> not be aware of is.. evas ALREADY has this infra. it can already do > this > >> >> little > >> >> zero-copy buffer swap trick... all the code is there.. it's even been > >> >> tested > >> >> with real drivers that do support this - there is even a virtual > buffer > >> >> swap > >> >> emulation layer to test it if you don't have such a magic driver.... > >> >> BUT... it > >> >> requires driver work to make this possible - or bypassing x's fb > driver > >> >> entirely... but we can already do this kind of stuff. we're FAR from > >> >> maximum > >> >> optimal level in sw compositing. in fact if we did both of the above > for > >> >> things > >> >> like scrolling your browser window around we'd basically increase > >> >> framerate by > >> >> 3 times compared to now. that's our existing potential upside if we > plug > >> >> all > >> >> the bits together. we're far from pure ultimate potential, and even > >> being > >> >> far > >> >> from it.. we are very usable on low end systems. so without a gpu to > >> >> accelerate > >> >> it all and make it all zero-copy... we have a potential upside (for > efl > >> >> apps) > >> >> of up to 3 TIMES faster (and a minimum of 2 times faster). for > non-efl > >> >> epps up > >> >> to 2 TIMES faster. though at this point.. we're almost being a > wayland > >> >> style > >> >> compositor directly, so i'm wondering if we'll ever bother with x > stuff > >> to > >> >> optimize this far and just jump to being wayland from there, as > wayland > >> is > >> >> all > >> >> about sending buffers around and avoiding copies... efl already lends > >> >> itself > >> >> very well to this. it already has the start of a wayland port and a > >> wayland > >> >> compositor in e17. and as above... we cant move to doing wayland > stuff > >> >> unless > >> >> we move to being "compositing only". keeping mind "compositing only" > >> does > >> >> not > >> >> EXCLUDe optimizations like "zeo copy/composite" you do for things > like > >> >> fullscreen windows (games etc.). if you do this just right you can > take > >> the > >> >> client pixel buffer it sends you (it sends a handle to it - it > doesn't > >> >> COPY it > >> >> to you) and you just program the gfx chipset to pint the real hw > buffer > >> >> scanout > >> >> to the client buffer. ALL the compositor is doing is updating where > the > >> fb > >> >> points to... it's doing zero actual compositing/copying/blending > work in > >> >> this > >> >> case. its turles... err.. zero copy all the way down. so your games > are > >> not > >> >> affected at all. if at any point some menu or dialog appears on > top.. it > >> >> begins > >> >> compositing again for that frame on until that overlayed window goes > >> away. > >> >> given smart enough compositing and the right hardware you can EVEN > avoid > >> >> compositing in such simple scenarios.. a lot of hardware supports > RGBA > >> >> OVERLAYS > >> >> - multiple buffers blended on top of eachother. your hw mouse cursor > is > >> >> exactly > >> >> such an overlay buffer. "xv video acceleration uses such a wh buffer > >> often > >> >> too > >> >> - but its yuv, not rgba... but same principle. a smart compositor can > >> >> PROGRAM > >> >> the overlay buffer to point to this "popup menu/dialog" and keep the > 2 > >> >> framebuffers totally separate... zero compositing/copies... until > the 3 > >> of > >> >> windows becomes too complex to point directly at hw buffer layers, > then > >> it > >> >> has > >> >> to start compositing for real... my point here is... this is the > path we > >> >> MUST > >> >> go down. we NEED to. wayland is being designed for this.. and they're > >> >> right. > >> >> this is how u get zero-tearing smooth screen updates with minimal > >> overhead. > >> >> it's a fundamental shift in perspective from copying pixels to a > single > >> >> shared > >> >> framebuffer with clip rects, but it is the reality of most hardware > you > >> >> already > >> >> have from phones through to set top boxes, tablets, laptops and > >> desktops. > >> >> you > >> >> just don't know it. most of these capabilities lie idle and unused > >> because > >> >> our > >> >> display system is too "old school" AND because of nay-sayers holding > >> back > >> >> progress saying "waaaa - i don't want compositing!". reality is that > >> >> basically > >> >> anyone who KNOWS graphics, hw and infra all the way down to these > nuts > >> and > >> >> bolts is already in agreement - this is the way to go. we agree > because > >> we > >> >> know > >> >> what is actually going on behind the scenes. the decision to be > >> compositing > >> >> only is a big step - but in the right direction. suffice to say, > that if > >> >> you > >> >> don't "get it" now, in a few years, you will. the penny may drop. > maybe > >> for > >> >> some it won't - you may be the same people who think a green screen > >> vt100 > >> >> is > >> >> all u ever need. pixels are useless. color is a waste of memory. > reality > >> >> is... > >> >> sticking to non-composited displays is as useful as sticking to a > vt100 > >> >> attached to a 192000 baud serial line. :) > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" > -------------- > >> >> The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) ras...@rasterman.com > >> >> > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > ~Jeff Hoogland <http://jeffhoogland.com/> > >> > Thoughts on Technology <http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/>, Tech Blog > >> > Bodhi Linux <http://bodhilinux.com/>, Enlightenment for your Desktop > >> > > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> > Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, > >> > MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills > current > >> > with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft > >> > MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: > >> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnnow-d2d > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > enlightenment-users mailing list > >> > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Ulisses Furquim > >> ProFUSION embedded systems > >> http://profusion.mobi > >> Mobile: +55 19 9250 0942 > >> Skype: ulissesffs > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, > >> MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current > >> with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft > >> MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnnow-d2d > >> _______________________________________________ > >> enlightenment-users mailing list > >> enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > ~Jeff Hoogland <http://jeffhoogland.com/> > > Thoughts on Technology <http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/>, Tech Blog > > Bodhi Linux <http://bodhilinux.com/>, Enlightenment for your Desktop > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, > > MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current > > with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft > > MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnnow-d2d > > _______________________________________________ > > enlightenment-users mailing list > > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > > > > -- > Ulisses Furquim > ProFUSION embedded systems > http://profusion.mobi > Mobile: +55 19 9250 0942 > Skype: ulissesffs > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, > MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current > with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft > MVPs and experts. ON SALE this month only -- learn more at: > http://p.sf.net/sfu/learnnow-d2d > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users > -- ~Jeff Hoogland <http://jeffhoogland.com/> Thoughts on Technology <http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/>, Tech Blog Bodhi Linux <http://bodhilinux.com/>, Enlightenment for your Desktop ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Master Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL, ASP.NET, C# 2012, HTML5, CSS, MVC, Windows 8 Apps, JavaScript and much more. Keep your skills current with LearnDevNow - 3,200 step-by-step video tutorials by Microsoft MVPs and experts. 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