On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:26:03 +0100 Peter Flynn <pe...@silmaril.ie> said:
> On 24/07/18 05:06, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:31:16 +0100 Peter Flynn <pe...@silmaril.ie> said: > > > >> On 23/07/18 07:44, Pierre Couderc wrote: > >>> I have many problems with "big" screens (in pixels 1920x1080). > >>> Characters are very small. It is easy to change this in e itself > >>> using "scaling". > > Right. But that setting does not persist into applications. for efl apps it does as e will then modify elm's config. > > actually no. this is where users and many toolkits and apps get it totally > > wrong. so you specify font size. what about icons and other elements then? > > They should stay the same size. This is where designers misunderstand > the problem. but they do not. incredibly often the do not. > People with this class of visual impairment don't want to scale > *everything* just in order to read the text. The icons and other screen > furniture are already big enough to see. They want to increase the size > of the text to one they can read, and have all applications obey that size. that makes no sense. if text is too small to read then icons would be too as they would have been designed to be recognizable at their original sizes. if the same impairment (lack of acuity due to eye lenses no longer being able to deform to focus, thus requiring glasses or contacts to correct which is by far the most common form of vision impairment) would apply to icons and other elements "becoming a blur". > There are of course other classes of impairment in which the use may > need everything scaled, but it is incorrect to assume that this is true > for all cases. > > > that is precisely why efl just uses a "scale" factor.[...] but this only > > affects efl/e. > > That's the second half of the problem. If I make a system setting like > this, I expect ALL applications to obey it, otherwise it does not > achieve anything. every toolkit has its own custom config system as to dome apps (chrome for example). feel free to provide patches that are acceptable per toolkit and keep them up to date... :) > > another way users/toolkits do this is "set dpi". you DO NOT SET dpi. dpi is > > a property o the screen (and its current resolution). SETTING it to get > > something to scale up is NOT right. > > Yes, this is the wrong solution. > > > this why there has to be a separate sizing factor other than messing with > > DPI, thus why efl uses a scale factor like above that is separate to dpi or > > font sizing, because really... "everyone is doing it wrong" (to be super > > simple about it). > > Yep. > > > setting font size is wrong (for the purposes of "it's too small - i > > need it bigger!"). > > What is the solution then? If I cannot read the text in thhe > application, I must have a way to make it bigger ON ITS OWN. Scaling the > whole window contents (like Ctrl+ in a browser) is NOT correct because > that increases the size of the icons, images, and all the other stuff. customize your fonts then, but this is not going to be the right solution for the vast majority of use cases. if the photos and other images were legible to someone with perfect vision as well as the text, now those same elements will be degraded to someone with worse vision who is unable to read the text, thus making them bigger to be as legible is the obvious thing to do. many photos contain images of text... so you say - don't scale those up too? a photo of a wall of graffiti ... or a photo that contains details such as peoples faces in a scene and now they are just blurry and not recognizable faces... that's why these size up too. > +1 to all those blogs who provide a Text± adjustment! > > > also font size is tightly tied to the font itself. at the > > same size different fonts can be vastly different in "visual size". > > True, but not "vastly" different except for display fonts. We're talking > here about text fonts. The variation in cap height and x height wrt > point size is clear, but the effect does not prevent font scaling from > solving the problem of legibility. but using font size as an indicator to scale other elements is wrong. it's going to break. let's say the default font size is 10. a user sets it to 15 to make text readable. does that mean i should scale icons by 1.5x too? you may have adjusted the font size to 15 to just account for the fonts poor design to make it "the same size" (core of the letters as opposed to fluff that extends above/below etc.) the same size... font size is not a "i have a vision problem" solution. it's just a "fix this font" solution. that is what a scaling factor is for and it also solves fonts at the same time (unless you change them). > > well TBH, i doubt that would work because there are OTHER methods to solve > > this, like: just lower your resolution (brute force but will solve the > > problem), or use a magnifier tool (of which plenty exist). it's not nice > > solutions, but then most solutions for those impaired with something aren't > > wonderful - they get the job done mostly. > > The correct solution is to impose a rule that all apps must obey the > current system default text font size. So if I install e and set my there is no "system default text font size". it does not exist. there is one per toolkit and often per app. and even then - the font isn't "default" but a font for specific elements. titlebars, buttons, labels etc. etc. ... > default font size to 22pt, all other applications must use that as their again - font size is directly related to the font itself. it is not an indicator of size that should be used for other fonts. > default for normal text (they can do anything they want with other kinds > of text, although if they are written properly, other sizes will be > proportionate to the base size). > > But this won't happen, for the reasons I gave before, unfortunately. it won't happen because it doesn't exist... :) > > but don't take the above as a disagreement that it's wrong to not be nice to > > those visually impaired who need "stuff to be bigger". the right solution > > IMHO is as above, and it's what EFL does, and at least across efl it works > > very well > > Yes, but it is not known by most applications. welcome to linux and fragmentation. it's part of the cost of freedom. no one person telling you that the only toolkit that ships will be X and deal with it. > > it's just a single size. it's intended for exactly the use cases you want - > > "make stuff bigger so i can see it" and you are asked to just select the > > thing that looks best to you. as above - it works across e/efl because it's > > designed to work this way. other toolkits imho are messier. gnome/gtk has a > > mix of "set font size", set dpi and "hi dpi display" which originally only > > allowed for integer scaling (2x, 3x, 4x etc.) as a wayland protocol. qt i > > think is dpi + font size too (when i say dpi, i mean "fake the dpi"). > > But those settings are only for the window manager's own menu and > widgets. They get ignored by all applications. actually they are for efl, so they cover all efl apps, not just wm. > The problem is architectural. Apple solved it decades ago by diktat, but > that isn't possible or desirable in Linux. App authors have got to > *want* to do the right thing: at the moment they are largely unaware of > the problem. > > ///Peter > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot > _______________________________________________ > enlightenment-users mailing list > enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users -- ------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" -------------- Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot _______________________________________________ enlightenment-users mailing list enlightenment-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/enlightenment-users
