Kouta, I agree with your observation that in many developing countries the maximum ages of local trees may not be a big priority. There are a number of tree ring laboratories in various locations around the world that have been established as a collaborative effort between foreign researchers and their local hosts. I know for example, that my friend Neil Pederson is involved in field work trips to Mongolia. There is a Tree Ring Laboratory at the Department of Forest Sciences at the National University of Mongolia in Ulaanbaatar, Mongolia. Prof. Baatarbileg Nachin is Head of the Department of Forestry there: [email protected] They just hosted the Second Asian Dendrochronology Conference last August. There is a Tree Ring Laboratory in Ethiopia. http://geography.swan.ac.uk/treering/etrl/index.htm developed in cooperation with the University of Arizona, USA and Department of Geography at the University of Wales Swansea (UWS), U.K There certainly are researchers from many different countries working with American and European researchers, but the field does still tend to be dominated by the US and European scientists. One bright spot is that if there is interest in these other countries in conducting their own tree ring work independently, the field does not have a big and expensive technological overhead. The process requires increment borers, sand paper, mounts, microscopes, measuring tables, and some basic computer software (most of which is free for downloading). Until the local scientists build their own laboratories to process research materials, it is likely that the research will continue to be expedition oriented, cooperative research.
Ed Frank Check out my new Blog: http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/ (and click on some of the ads) ----- Original Message ----- From: Kouta Räsänen To: ENTSTrees Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 5:49 AM Subject: [ENTS] Re: Angiosperms....are there many (or any) that can reach a 1,000 years of age with the original stem? Ed, Those old oaks and lindens have been important cultural objects. So, if something happened to them, it should be mentioned in historical accounts, too. But anyway you are right: historical accounts cannot be as safe as year rings. An another thing is that these 1000-year-old broadleaf trees in Europe are exclusively trees without natural competition: in the nature they would not be able to reach such ages. Such work, as you are doing, should be done for another regions in the world indeed. In Europe there would be also possibilities to do that. Globally, I find two main reasons hindering such work. First is language barriers, and second is that in many countries there are enough bigger problems than insufficient knowledge of maximum ages attained by local trees. Almost all the tallest, biggest and oldest trees are growing in english speaking countries, mostly with a high GDP. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think before mid-1950's nobody had an idea that bristlecone pines are exceptional old, and many countries are at least those 50 years behind US in development. For example, has somebody studied the junipers of Asian mountains? They could place themselves high in the old-list, as do some juniper species in mountains of western NA. Who knows. If they have been studied, the results have perhaps been published in Chinese or Russian, and we cannot read them Of ring counted trees, there are two species in my home country, which would be quite high in the old-list: Common Juniper (Juniperus communis) - 1070 years in Lemmenjoki and 940 years in Utsjoki, and Scots Pine (Pinus sylvestris) - 780 years in Urho Kekkonen National Park. All these trees are very gnarly low trees growing in mountains of north Finland. In Central Europe, Swiss Pine (Pinus cembra) has been found to be 1100 years in French Alps and 1018 years in Alps of north Italy. These pines resemble little bit bristlecones in their habit. An interesting aspect: many of the oldest tree species grow in habitats with short growing season and therefore are most of the year switched to a rest mode. If Fokienia attains in Vietnam an age of 1000 years with growing season of 12 months in a year, and bristlecones attain an age of 5000 years with growing season of 2 months of so (?), are their physiological ages actually about the same? - Kouta On Nov 12, 5:08 pm, "Edward Frank" <[email protected]> wrote: > Kouta, > > Yes the list seems to very North America centered. It generally lists only trees that have been cross-dated which have a single trunk, with a few exceptions. It draws heavily on the International Tree Ring Data Base. Most of the oldest chronologies are from North America, so they dominate the list. Historical accounts are a problem because there is a question if this is the same tree that was planted, or is it an offspring, or is it a coppiced trunk, or is it grown from a root sprout of the original tree.... > > It does not really provide much useful information even for tree species in the eastern North America. Neil Pederson created the Eastern Old-list drawing on much the same data but focusing on trees in eastern NA, many of which are shorter lived, and do not even make the original list. > > Even beyond that listing, the dendrochronological record tends to focus on longer lived specimens. I am trying to compile a listing for North America based upon cross-dated cores, scattered ring counts, etc. The degree of accuracy of these numbers is relatively poor, especially from really porous woods. The goal is not to provide a definitive listing given the inaccuracies, but to better understand the age potential for some of these species and the age structure of some of our forests. Even these ages with substantial errors is better than the lack of any information at all for the vast majority of tree species. A similar regional approach should be taken for Europe, Africa, etc. with the methodology noted so that the information is available and there is some way to judge the accuracy of the information. > > Ed Frank > > Check out my new Blog: http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/(and click on some of the ads) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kouta Räsänen > To: ENTSTrees > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 9:49 AM > Subject: [ENTS] Re: Angiosperms....are there many (or any) that can reach a 1,000 years of age with the original stem? > > ENTS, > > The Old-List seems to be quite North America centered... -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected] -- Eastern Native Tree Society http://www.nativetreesociety.org Send email to [email protected] Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/entstrees?hl=en To unsubscribe send email to [email protected]
