Ed,
We have older data from the champion trees we have at the botanic garden
but most of the height data is just from the pass few years. I went to a
workshop with Steve Sillett and Robert Van Pelt a few years ago at a ISA
meeting in St. Louis and that is what really got me interested in leaning
better techniques in measuring trees.
Also I've worked on rain forest trees in French Guiana as a climber helping
with some research projects. The last project I proposed and worked on a in
Jan. 08 was to measure and increment bore some of the largest trees we saw on
the Gros Arbres trail out side of very little town in the forest called Saul.
That was no easy task I found out, so I've been trying to learn and work out
methods here at the botanic garden so if we get the money someday to go back
down there I'll be more prepared.
One tool that has really help with the tape drops is the extendable pole my
climbing partner Alec Baxt found a few years ago. Here is a link to were to
get one.
http://cableorganizer.com/fiberglass-rod/telescoping-pole.htm
Its helpful to tie a red ribbon at the top of the pole or end of the tape to
help see and match up with end of a twig. We have the 16' pole but I was
looking at the web-site and there is a 3' to 26' pole also. Too bad Christmas
is over.
I also think it would great ideal to have a workshop someday on tape drops and
field measuring methods. It would help in getting better data by getting the
techniques more standardized.
-Chris
From: Edward Frank [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2009 9:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: Roddick, Chris
Subject: Re: [ENTS] Re: Tree Climbing and tree Measurements
Chris,
Thanks for the response. I am wondering how much tree height data you have
collected at Brooklyn Botanic from tape drops, and how long of a record you
have compiled? Do you have data over a few years or ten years? I know it is
difficult to sometimes see what is the highest branch. On the recent climb of
the Seneca Hemlock by Will at Cook Forest SP, PA (and on some other climbs some
others) we tried to have people on the hillside or in nearby trees to better
access what sprig was actually the tallest. An advantage of tape drops and
climbs is that if there are clustered tops, or the top of the tree are
relatively flat, the tallest point may not even be visible from the ground. I
hope you continue to post to the group and add comments and contribute
information to out discussions. Tips and tricks on how to best measure trees
heights from within the canopy would be appreciated as would some ideas on how
to qualitatively or quantitatively access and describe the canopy itself for
eastern trees. Will Blozan has done quite a bit of canopy stuff, both in the
western US and here in the east with the Middleton Oak Project, ad his Tsuga
Search Project, but different ideas are always of interest (to e at least)
Ed
http://nature-web-network.blogspot.com/
http://primalforests.ning.com/
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?ref=profile&id=709156957
Roddick, Chris
Sent: Thursday, December 24, 2009 12:49 PM
To: '[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'>
Subject: RE: [ENTS] Re: Tree Climbing and tree Measurements
Ed,
As an arborist and a climber I try to make taking measurements as just part
of the job when going up a tree. Dropping a tape from the top of a tree as
many of you know is not always that simple, maybe why most arborist don't do
it.
Some arborist may only judge the height of a tree just by the length of
their climbing rope double over a limb (if you have a 120'rope around a limb
say 15' from the top, when you come down and you only have 10' of rope on
the ground you have a 70' tall tree if my math is right) not too scientific.
The biggest problem maybe is knowing the exact height of a tree is not
really part of arboriculture. DBH is used for some treatments but not so
much for height. Most climbers I know will just guess at the height to know
how long of a rope to bring up and that's about it. There is one phenomenon,
that when climbers tell stories about a difficult tree they worked on, the
tree gets taller on each telling of the story. Could be the real reason we
don't want to know.
I work at the Brooklyn Botanic garden where we have a few state, city, and
long island champion trees so we measure each tree as they need pruning or
other work. I also like to keep records of all our trees, I feel its
important for managing a collection, it also helps our tree care program
with funding and research. Good measurements over time make our tree
collections even more valuable and more useful for scientific research.
Each tree we work on we try to document DBH, height, and a assessment of
biological and mechanical health of stem and roots. The preferred way to
measure height is to drop a tape from the top. We sometimes use a 16'
extendable pole that collapsed down two less then 2'(it's use for power-line
work). The pole helps when you can't get to the very top. But it still can
be difficult in shade trees to know where the high point really is, even
from up in the tree. In the winter months I find the rangefinder works even
better for some shade trees with larger canopy.
I think the more arborist that find out about ENTS and other groups may help
motivate them to take a little time to measure more trees and look for
champions and other notable trees. Just knowing that there are people out
there that care about these things helps.
Thank you for all your work ENTS,
Chris Roddick
Head Arborist
Brooklyn Botanic Garden
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
[mailto:[email protected]] On
Behalf Of James Parton
Sent: Tuesday, December 22, 2009 9:30 PM
To: ENTSTrees
Subject: [ENTS] Re: Tree Climbing and tree Measurements
Ed,
Sometimes there is a time to measure and document and sometimes it is
just time to lay back taking it easy and just simply enjoy the forest
for what it is. Both are enjoyable. Both have their place.
JP
On Dec 22, 6:58 pm, "Edward Frank"
<[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
> ENTS,
>
> I posted tie following message to a couple of tree climbing forums on
Facebook. I would welcome the input of people here in ENTS as well.
>
> Tree Climbing and Tree Measuring
>
> I am curious why tree climbers as a group do not measure more trees. I
have been corresponding with several people individually on the subject, and
am now opening the conversation to the wider group. I am a member of the
Eastern Native Tree Society,http://www.nativetreesociety.org- a groups
described by one website as tree measuring fanatics. One respondent said
(paraphrased):
>
> The majority of the folks .are coming from the realm of connecting with
nature, in an almost philosophical way. They seem to look at the trees as
friends and don't seem that interested in the trees stats. Kind of like
hanging out with your friends, do you ask them how much they weigh or how
tall they are?
>
> Other people suggested that there really are two groups of tree climbers -
those that do it recreationally and those that do it as a business. It was
suggested that those who do it for a business might not want to take
measurements at the expense of work time. There is commonly "production
pressure" that often makes it unfeasible for employees of many companies to
take the extra time needed for accurate measurements. Many of those that
climb recreationally might be more interested I the experience of climbing
rather than the taking measurements. Another commented that many climbers
do not climb to the very top, or near the very top of trees needed to do
tape drops because of safety concerns especially when dealing with thin
topped conifers.
>
> Personally I would disagree with the idea that measuring a tree detracts
from the one with nature experience. As a caver I enjoyed mapping caves,
because it forced me to take the time to see the small details I would have
missed in a typical trip through the system. Likewise I find measuring
trees in the forest gives me a richer and more meaningful trip than a simple
hike. I am actively looking for different species of trees, of the
relationships between them, of the structure and detail of the canopy, of
the bark details, and signs of age. They are brought into focus by the
process and time it takes to make measurements. I am sure the same would be
found to be true for those that take the time to measure the trees they
climb in more detail.
>
> One person suggested that often the girth is measured, but the heights are
only estimated, and that is good enough. Perhaps there is not a realization
of how badly off these estimates of heights might be, even when using
standard forestry techniques of distance x tangent of the clinometer angle
taught in most forestry courses. Errors are commonly in the range of 20%. I
want to know how tall of a tree is being climbed, why are bad estimates good
enough? (ENTS laser rangefinder/clinometer methods can accurately measure
heights to within a foot of the actual height - but require some
instrumentation).
>
> Would some written guidelines on the process of doing tape drops, or even
the more complex trunk volume calculations be of interest or useful to
recreational tree climbers? Or at least of interest to some climbers?
Certainly it would bring more big tree discoveries to light if more
climbers were measuring.
>
> I am looking for your thoughts ideas, and input on the subject. If you
have something to say, please reply. You can message e individually if you
prefer.
>
> Ed Frank
>
> "Beauty is a summation of the parts working together in such a way that
nothing is needed to be added, taken away or altered." Elio Caretti
--
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Send email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
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To unsubscribe send email to
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To unsubscribe send email to
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--
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To unsubscribe send email to
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