You make the points I think should be investigated Nom. To take leadership as a given is nonsense - but so is the denial in full anarchy.
On 26 Apr, 19:34, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > sport / compete........survival / cooperate > > sport / cooperate......survival / compete > > It's an actual old thematic dialectic I came up with analyzing a play > "Aminta" by Torquato Tasso in the 1980's....plug in your "ethical > preferences" and go from there....If you value sport / compete as "good / > good"... then by contrary necessity you have to value survival / cooperate > as "bad / bad"....etc....it all depends on point of view of moral or > ethical predicated value....I agree that capitalist economics is more akin > to a sport / compete situation.... the referees are definitely beneficial > in keeping the cheating and fouls in check.... but my broader point is..... > could a survival / cooperate template for economic activity be better or > more attuned (at least) to some situations.....that's a rhetorical > question, of course... some say yes, others no.... but at least recognize > (or acknowledge openly) the range of option, I'd suggest.... > > leadership.... this gets into another set of thematic oppositions, not the > least of which is the following > > freedom / choice.... dominance / compel > > freedom / compel....dominance / choice > > same thing... value one "course of action" option and the others are also > valued on the basis of contrariety... whatever your point of view... > Leadership defined how?.....is my point here. There are situations in life > and society where, perforce, a dominance / compel relation is made to > apply.... think military....chain of command.. orders being given by > superior officers to subaltern soldiers.....but these military conditions > of "leadership" are extraordinary and are assumed to apply on the > assumption (in civilized or moral countries) that the leadership will only > make orders in and ethical manner (at least most of the time)....but how > about business or economic leadership.... the tension to dominance / > compel there is greater and the ethical mandate more tenuous if even > existent at all......... > > Great leaders.... ?..... me..... anarchist..... remember? ... but I > acknowledge "reality"..... > > > > > > > > On Friday, April 26, 2013 1:07:12 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: > > > The Mussolini woman not quite my cup of visual tea. I did, many moons > > back have a dalliance with the daughter of a French fascist. The > > bloke was actually very decent to me and helped with an inquiry - > > amazing what he was able to shift out of my way. I think the pork > > sword wanted to stay but I had a chance to make the minor counties > > cricket team. > > > I'm fairly convinced on revolution and if the only 'victims' were a > > few bankers swinging from lamp-posts it would be a good thing for the > > greater good. They do enough violence to us through redundancy and in > > letting third world farmers die because a tractor has taken their work > > or they give up to debt through suicide (250,000 in India alone in 10 > > years). When it comes to such social experiment what price 92,000 > > super rich against this? I think its time we took moral talk back > > from sinecured Harvard professors and realised facts make oughts. > > > My problem with revolution is leadership. I'll spare you the crap > > I've read that business schools and history produce. I've been > > looking for a critical history of leadership and come up blank for > > now. You can tell something is wrong when you ask people to list > > great leaders - its rare anyone mentions anyone they actually met or > > whose brain I wouldn't summarily test with a lead projectile (or two > > to make sure). Quite a few come up with total myths from heroic > > tragedy or religion. > > > One assumes we can only be conned in "appointing" tossers with shell > > shock trauma like Hitler - I read a book on how he was conjured up > > recently (though I'm not sure we can swallow the idea it is an Anglo- > > American trick used to pit Germany against the USSR). I glanced at a > > list of British PMs since Walpole (a couple before too) and they all > > look like nondescript turkeys or villains of the elite like Churchill, > > Thatcher and Blair. I fancy a history of their crookery and cronyism > > would enlighten. I have Churchill and Blair as US spies - why do > > novelists stick on such safe ground as the Da Vinci Code? Further > > down the pecking order how do the stuffed shirts and crooks get to > > lead our organisations generally? One survey of people going through > > INSEAD (French major business school) failed t find a single instance > > of a student not networked by nepotism or the 'royal route' through > > the best European schools, universities and grandes ecoles. > > > What one finds is all kinds of "leadership skills" bandied about as > > real but the connection I make is with religious lying (from gods met > > just past the second burning bush up the mountain trail on the right, > > the prophet we must not name who probably never existed and on to the > > salamander in hat). The only thing special about leaders (in this > > sense) I've met as CEOs and so on is that they could give me money, > > let me stay in my job and so on. > > > In biology we can find leadership from insects up - indeed lower than > > that (algae) - but it's quite rare for the death of a leader to cause > > much trouble - one of the weedy proles just steps up to the mark, even > > if it has to change sex and grow (clown fish?) - vile king mouse is > > easily replaced by any male mouse you feed up and train to fight. > > Elephants may be the exception in that the matriarch may have many of > > the memories of collective experience. Some research has it that > > shares go up 2.8% on average when a CEO dies unexpectedly - do you > > sense the financial opportunity! Tap, tap, ching, ching! Strange > > that we'd be nicked for writing the prospectus for that little scam > > and not for one that involved war, rape, pillage and mass murder in > > mineral extraction. In thought experiment we should a least consider > > whether the world would change much of the Bilderburger lot all came > > down with legionnaires' disease, or if Gates had popped his CIA clogs > > and we had a new timeline of Dr Dos. > > > I suspect leadership is positional not personal - but the key thing > > for change is whether we can understand it enough to change what > > people do and become in it. Sport strikes me again Nom - even under > > the eye of the ref we cheat and even when video records it. Finance > > is hardly a game played in the open is it. Indeed with all technology > > to make it so all effort goes into preventing this - I can no longer > > read published big company balance sheets, P & L and cash flow - I'd > > need 200 forensic-trained accountants, lawyers and leg people to visit > > the assets. By now the rags I buy could have a label on them telling > > me the ecological disaster, sweat shop and killing cost of the 4 quid > > sweat shirt. What leadership skills went into denying me this > > information? > > We often hear the cry that we need leadership not management. I agree > > - if only everyone believing this rot would charge off and die in the > > middle of the volcano the great leaders directed them into - the world > > would be a better place one a few decent cops locked up the leaders > > for murder. > > > Not been anywhere interesting - next trip end of June to Ireland. > > > On Apr 26, 12:41 am, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Archytas.....I guess you were busy.... something exciting?... like > > > travel to some exotic place? > > > > I seem to remember about "fascist Bardot".... she's still a looker, > > > though.... ever see pictures of Mussolini's granddaughter? > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolinihttps://www.google.c..., > > have a daliance with=mussolini%27s+granddaughter&safe=off&... > > > > not quite up to Brigitte's appeal... but not bad... same blond look... > > > > wealth tax.... your definition....sad but true.... I'm not knowledgeable > > > but it appears to be most widely used in Switzerland....hey, the Swiss > > > definitely know about money (and they are fairly equal-minded in > > internal > > > politics).... It may be a fairly good notion- if done right... > > > > "euthanise) excess money that could be speculated in money making money > > or > > > used to extract excessive economic rents."....What is your take on the > > > basic "ethics" of Adam Smith... Archytas.... do you think that he was a > > > "good faith" capitalist and economics thinker?.... I mean, do you think > > his > > > "heart" (social conscience) was in the right place?..... > > > > Haring and Douglas (2012) 'Economists and the Powerful'. .... so much to > > > read.....the curiosity is willing, but the time ... maybe I'll try to > > get > > > at least a look at it... > > > On Apr 26, 12:41 am, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hi Archytas.....I guess you were busy.... something exciting?... like > > > travel to some exotic place? > > > > I seem to remember about "fascist Bardot".... she's still a looker, > > > though.... ever see pictures of Mussolini's granddaughter? > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alessandra_Mussolinihttps://www.google.c...... > > > > not quite up to Brigitte's appeal... but not bad... same blond look... > > > > wealth tax.... your definition....sad but true.... I'm not knowledgeable > > > but it appears to be most widely used in Switzerland....hey, the Swiss > > > definitely know about money (and they are fairly equal-minded in > > internal > > > politics).... It may be a fairly good notion- if done right... > > > > "euthanise) excess money that could be speculated in money making money > > or > > > used to extract excessive economic rents."....What is your take on the > > > basic "ethics" of Adam Smith... Archytas.... do you think that he was a > > > "good faith" capitalist and economics thinker?.... I mean, do you think > > his > > > "heart" (social conscience) was in the right place?..... > > > > Haring and Douglas (2012) 'Economists and the Powerful'. .... so much to > > > read.....the curiosity is willing, but the time ... maybe I'll try to > > get > > > at least a look at it... > > > > "structured jubilee on household debt. This is complex and would need > > some > > > international cooperation. My model comes from sports competition - > > "... > > > can you give a link or reference that I could look at for basic notions? > > > > "in my view much of what we have is either an elitist route through the > > > best schools and universities that gives the rich a reproductive (of > > > themselves as rich) advantage under lies of meritocracy, or > > child-minding > > > until 21 and debt peonage after. Humans are the only animals with the > > vile > > > teenage period. I'd go for much higher child-minding and early > > education > > > quality with better food until fourteen in small schools - free and with > > > all year round child- > > > minding. After that we'd go Internet with universities charged with > > civic > > > social organisation and local-international work projects. "... we could > > > discuss this at length....personally.... I'd want a Nominal9Thematic > > > Dialectic Logic requirement for all students at all levels.....not to > > sound > > > self-important or self-serving....but I think you get the gist of my way > > of > > > nominalist ( I call it) thinking......more empirical...actual physical > > and > > > reality (factual) hands on... less abstraction just for its own sake... > > and > > > an "ethical" component with a teaching of the possible range of all > > > options... especially at the "course of action" human interaction > > levels... > > > historical, cultural, psycho-sociological, creative.... etc. > > > > Your last paragraph I will leave alone for now.....it gets into some > > > "political" areas that.... as a self-styled "anarchist" HAR I might > > rebel > > > at or about with you.... Revolution.... I say... people should always > > > strive for the most and best "freedoms" they can get.....Damn the nay > > > sayers.... even those who think that they are.... shall we say.... > > > "enlightened".... but I don't say that there is necessarily any of that > > > sentiment or intention in what you may have in mind.... > > > > As usual.... nice learning from and talking with you... > > again....Archytas.. > > > > On Thursday, April 25, 2013 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: > > > > > Bardo was fascist connected once. > > > > There already is a wealth tax. The money goes from the poor to the > > > > rich. > > > > The idea amongst most classical economists was to encourage production > > > > for social benefit. They wanted to curb or eliminate (Adam Smith's > > > > term was euthanise) excess money that could be speculated in money > > > > making money or used to extract excessive economic rents. Lots of > > > > facts in Haring and Douglas (2012) 'Economists and the Powerful'. > > > > Some tendency to treat you colonials as dumb-ass that's inaccurate. > > > > I want to go further than a wealth tax and bring in a structured > > > > jubilee on household debt. This is complex and would need some > > > > international cooperation. My model comes from sports competition - > > > > that is designing competition that has rules, active refereeing > > > > subject to public scrutiny - but also tries to keep 'teams' in the > > > > competition, perhaps subject to relegation and promotion. We need > > > > competition that doesn't kill the other team or manipulate itself to > > > > monopoly. Just as you can't compete in soccer by using guns, you > > > > shouldn't compete in industrial manufacture through global wage/ > > > > conditions arbitrage. And we'd need some kind of showtime - as in > > > > people not buying the crap cars you make. > > > > > We generally miss something structural that's going on. I label this > > > > robot heaven - work has got a lot easier thanks to robots like > > > > tractors and much more productive. We could also look at stuff like > > > > education - in my view much of what we have is either an elitist route > > > > through the best schools and universities that gives the rich a > > > > reproductive (of themselves as rich) advantage under lies of > > > > meritocracy, or child-minding until 21 and debt peonage after. Humans > > > > are the only animals with the vile teenage period. I'd go for much > > > > higher child-minding and early education quality with better food > > > > until fourteen in small schools - free and with all year round child- > > > > minding. After that we'd go Internet with universities charged with > > > > civic social organisation and local-international work projects. > > > > > Big questions arise about how much work we need and how much > > > > opportunity we can give or need to restrict. Much of our dire > > > > conditioning in medieval work ethics and forces of biological/ > > > > propaganda hierarchy doesn't help us believe we can do something this > > > > radical - and nor does bleeding heart liberalism on problems in > > > > policing bandits, politicians, corporations, sexist religions and > > > > nutters. There is also no point in modernising, say, farming in > > > > India, to see millions die because no other work/income opportunity is > > > > provided to prevent new owners just letting them die as the food is > > > > exported (manifests of food leaving Ireland during the potato blight > > > > are informative here). And there's no point in doing any of this if > > > > some people insist on breeding us to global warming oblivion. > > > > > On 21 Apr, 18:59, nominal9 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > I sort of like the wealth tax idea because it looks to be more as > > wners > > > > > "progressive" (i.e., affects more the wealthy than the > > not-so-wealthy) > > > > > right off the bat... unlike an income "flat tax" rate... HAR.. I > > sort of > > > > > think that the way it's explained and sorted out in the wiki > > article.... > > > > it > > > > > might (almost definitely would) be strongly opposed by the "rich" > > and > > > > the > > > > > libertarian minded....The France way of instituting a wealth tax has > > > > > definitely caused a "capital flight".... There's the example of that > > > > actor > > > > > Gerard Depardieu, and I think I heard that even Brigitte Bardot > > backed > > > > the > > > > > "capital flight" notion... > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%A9rard_Depardieuhttp://en.wikipedia...... > > > > > > Depardieu, I can take or leave.....but Bardot.....well.... what > > hetero > > > > male > > > > > our age could possibly leave her behind (take the "behind" part any > > way > > > > > please HAR).... > > > > > Anyway.. it (wealth tax) seems to have worked well in other > > places..... > > > > > but, like I said.... it would likely be fought tooth and nail by the > > > > > conservatives here in the U.S.... in any format or in any > > combination of > > > > > things... > > > > > > On Saturday, April 20, 2013 5:59:30 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: > > > > > > > I never saw that article before... > > > > > > I read the whole thing with keen interest. Some points to consider > > : > > > > > > 1) The tax I propose is on the total wealth of all individuals and > > > > > > organizations (including government), without exceptions, not just > > a > > > > net > > > > > > wealth of individuals. > > > > > > 2) Paying the tax should be voluntary, without penalty for failure > > to > > > > > > declare some item of wealth, EXCEPT that undeclared wealth is not > > > > protected > > > > > > by legal processes. > > > > > > 3) The tax should render invalid other taxes on economic activity, > > > > rather > > > > > > than supplementing them. > > > > > > > Thanks for the link. > > > > > > > Lonnie Courtney Clay > > > > > > > On Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:07:10 PM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: > > > > > > >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_tax > > > > > > >> Does this wiki entry do the wealth tax idea justice?.....I'm > > > > game.....but > > > > > >> I can just hear the (mixed metaphor)..."fat cats squeal like > > stuck > > > > > >> pigs"..... already.....HAR....now, all we have to do is get it > > > > enacted into > > > > > >> law..... that should take about 200 years, minimum, here in the > > U.S. > > > > > > >> On Saturday, April 20, 2013 1:02:10 PM UTC-4, Lonnie Clay wrote: > > > > > > >>> Three clauses of constitutional law should do it : > > > > > >>> 1) Value shall legally exist in civil law only to the extent > > that > > > > the > > > > > >>> applicable wealth tax was paid in advance of the legal issue. > > > > > >>> 2) Value shall exist in criminal cases as specified by > > applicable > > > > laws > > > > > >>> and regulations. > > > > > >>> 3) There shall be no taxation of economic activity, and usage > > fees > > > > shall > > > > > >>> be appropriate for expenses incurred by government entities. > > > > > > >>> So how about that? > > > > > > >>> Lonnie Courtney Clay > > > > > > >>> On Saturday, April 20, 2013 9:51:08 AM UTC-7, nominal9 wrote: > > > > > > >>>> Hi Lonnie....I'll accept you option to "tax wealth".....can you > > > > explain > > > > > >>>> "how" and "what" such a set of taxes would look like?.....cure > > my > > > > ... > > > > read more » -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Epistemology" group. 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