RE: [COUPERS-TECH] RE: [COUPERS-FLYIN] Ercoupe back into production

Mon, 22 Nov 2004 10:27:29 -0700 

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Percy -
 
The Luscombe fire died out last week - factory is vacating their building, saying they'll resume elsewhere.  We've all heard that before.
 
Here's the issue as I see it - it's easier to design from scratch.  Take a look at the Tecnam P-96 Golf.  Two place, low wing, sliding canopy. 100 hp Rotax engine.  Fits all LSA requirements, but it does the following:
 
1.  Goes 115 knots (132 mph) in cruise.  Burns 5 gph.  That isn't far from Cessna 172 speed, and allows true cross country flight.  Carries 6 hours of fuel to dry tanks too.
 
2.  Carries over 500 pounds in cabin with full fuel.  Cabin is 6 inches wider than a Cessna 152.  Two guys, each over 200 pounds, fit in it without touching shoulders.
 
3.  Stick controls, dual throttles, a blast to fly.
 
4.  All the modern conveniences of full panel, center stack radios, etc.
 
All for about $75,000, BRAND NEW.  A newly built Ercoupe would be at least that much, and not nearly as fast, nor carrying nearly so much weight.
 
To totally re-design the old Coupe to be lighter, and made of lighter materials - forget it, far too costly.  Lack of useful load is a BIG problem in the 415-C.  If you're going to send students for a flight test in one, they've got to be legal.
 
In how many C or CD models can you truly carry 400 pounds in the cabin with any meaningful amount of fuel?  You might fudge it for your personal use, but a flight school/rental operation can't.
 
Just like the email I sent around a few days ago inquiring about peoples' real-world empty weights in C models.  Yesterday, a friend stopped by our airport in his.  He's a big guy, over 6 feet tall, not obese, but not skinny.  He has 100 pounds left over, with full fuel, for a passenger and baggage.  That won't ever work in a school/rental operation.
 
I'm 1/2 owner of an FBO/flight school.  We have a Beech Skipper in our fleet that suffers from the same problem - we can't really train someone in it, even though it's so nice, so comfortable, and flies like a dream.  With its limited useful load, no way can a student go for a flight check in it - the airplane is over gross with 2 people, each over 150 pounds, and enough gas to get out of the traffic pattern.
 
Jerry E.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Wood, Percy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 10:44 AM
To: 'Jerry Eichenberger'; Wood, Percy; 'david dixon'; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [COUPERS-TECH] RE: [COUPERS-FLYIN] Ercoupe back into production

There are good reasons for "all the false starts over the years," Jerry.  And you have identified it = labor costs.  During the 1930's, labor cost was a non-issue.
With the high unemployment rate (sound familiar?  But it was worse then), any one with a job was happy - even without medical benefits!  What is needed is
re-design for manufacture.  So one needs to design out all the hand work and the specialized castings/extrusions.  The Luscombe is back in production ( in
Chezck, or Slovak, or one of `em) because it is bent up sheet. 
            Percy
-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry Eichenberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 9:01 AM
To: Wood, Percy; 'david dixon'; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [COUPERS-TECH] RE: [COUPERS-FLYIN] Ercoupe back into production

How would this happen if you didn't buy the Type Certificate from Univair?  Then, of course, there's the issue of a Production Certificate from the FAA.
 
Of course, I suppose you could clone it, and offer it as a kit, similar to what Wag Aero does with their Cub replica.  Also, you'd have to make at least one complete aircraft, conforming to the consensus standards, then offer kits, which no longer require the builder to do 51% of the work as an experimental light sport aircraft.
 
Could be done, but what about patent infringement, etc. issues?  I don't know what Wag Aero did - patents are probably expired anyhow.
 
Engine is an issue, since none of the small Continentals are still in production.  Rotax would fit, balance would probably be an issue that could be solved.
 
Like you said - possible, but very difficult.  Usually, the biggest difficulty with production of resurrected old airplanes is labor costs.  These ancient designs didn't take labor, and man hours to build, that much into consideration.  Today, it's all-important as a factor of what it will cost to bring an airplane to the market.
 
Remember all of the false starts over the years - who knows how many attempts with Taylorcrafts, Swifts, Luscombes, Navions, etc.  Gotta be a good reason not a single one has made it.
 
Jerry E.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Wood, Percy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 10:13 AM
To: 'david dixon'; [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [COUPERS-TECH] RE: [COUPERS-FLYIN] Ercoupe back into production

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Lots of ideas in this group, Scott.
  But your chum's business plan is already in operation.  Perhaps this is the same people.
See http://www.americansportflying.com  I know one of the principles has owned a `coupe
before.  He gave me a very thorough BFR once.
  Putting the Ercoupe, or anyother certificated design, back into production would be easy
but hard.  It is Easy because the design work has been done.  It is Hard because of the
mind-set of aircraft production in the US.  This group has been there before.  Several of
us were interested - I still am. 
           Percy
-----Original Message-----
From: david dixon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: [COUPERS-FLYIN] Ercoupe back into production

----[Please read http://ercoupers.com/disclaimer.htm before following any advice in this forum.]----

Hey Group Couper's,

 

Could it really happen......................... Ercoupe back into production???   A group of shareholders and investors are considering placing the Ercoupe back into production, which would be a  new Sport Pilot Opportunity. This is a prototype operations going in Massachusetts.  I got an E-mail from a friend that is trying to start the Sport Pilot perfect plane and is looking for suitable airframes to use for their business plan, but no real connections yet. Their group is even considering placing the Ercoupe back into production.

 

That would be wonderful to see a brand new Ercoupe, wonder what the cost would be??  Dream's are free!

 

Cheers,

Scott

S36  N3005H

 

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