----- Original Message -----
From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Rail rolling resistance; comments
> Hi Bob and All,
> --- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > Hi Jerry an' All;
> > >
> > > Steve Gaarder wrote:
> > > > > Steel on steel is the ultimate in low rolling
> > resistance,
> This is not really true. Trains that run on
> ground effect, pressurized air, would have a much
> lower rolling resistance.
Well, possably, but it takes power to produce the ground effect, to
pressurize air or a magnetic field, although it may be easier to "Roll"
after all this stuff is done. Sort of like the Fool Cell thing, where do you
get the Hydrogen to ruin it from, it's not free! This sort of Train has been
done in Japan and Germany, but is cost prohivitive. Or , Never- happen-
here. Hell! We in USA are too cheap to fix up existing in place RR's. As
proven in most of the rest of the world steel wheel technology is good for
200 mph speeds, TGV trains in France have done 300 Mph, not KPH, in tests!
Go to Yahoo or Google and do a search on "French Trains" for a fun read.
> This allows a much lighter train chassis, less
> cost, noise, shake, rattle and roll.
We in USA could do better in this dept. Archaic constructins standards
in USA have made Acela twice as heavy as the Swedish demo train we had here
a few years ago. Amtrak had to get a FRA waiver to run it here. We just
couldn't legally go and buy a big box of ready-to-run Swedish trainsets, and
plug an' play. Joke at Amtrak: We can't have THESE, they work too WELL!
Could raise hell with our image to the public, people would EXPECT the #$%^
train to be on time, not break down, derail or catch fire, in their trip,
have heat an' lites the whole ride. That's no fun!
> The only way to break 200/300 mph that we need
> to make long distance trains viable is ground effect.
> Other methods cost too much.
Ya got a good point. But do we really need to spend several times the
cost for a 100 mph more. Existing steel wheel tech is very do-able, but cost
with ANY new RR is the cost of drawing a line on the map, and THAT'S where
your track goes. I like the old story, may not be true, Of the Czar in old
Russia, wanting a RR built, called for a pen, a ruler and a map brought
forth, put ruler on map, drew a streight line, between two cities, and said"
This is where I want my RR" Should be a surviving Fast Trak SOMEwhere in
Russia? Now THAT'S customer service! For a passenger RR.
Case in point. You wouldn't believe the fights Amtrak had to go through
with the #$%^ Nimbys here in New England, when they put up the catenary, a
few years ago. Screaming that noise ,vibration, the roar of hi speed trains
would forever destroy the pleasent New England lifestyle. But nobody minds a
few more lanes of I-95, they hope and prey for it. CDOT is about to embark
on a new 10 lane I-95 Quiniapac River bridge. Anybody familiar with CT knows
the "Q" bridge. Much maligned 3 lanes each way, with a dangerous archaic
on -off ramp system. Nobody at DOT can consieve of widining the 2 lane 95
that it empties into. You don't hafta be a traffic engineer to figure THIS
one out, just live here, try to commute, in your EV or gas rig! Construction
HAS begun, they figure ten years to do all this, so it'll be 15 or 20
BILLIONS of bux. As anybody that lives in CT, Hiway construction projects
are awarded to enept contractors, have to be Re-awarded to more competent
guyz later, YEARS later, Graft, WASTE, nobody sees. No wonder the State is
broke, DISPITE the Income tax AND Casinoes all over the place, stuff we just
didn't have 15 years ago. They sure know how to spend money, and when called
on it will scream how much the trains are costing! My letters to the Editor
on this got in the local paper. As yu all know my writing style, I was
surprised . But they left alot of it out. But I tried.
Back on topic again. The trains were powered up and running and
everybvody sez" What's the big deal?" the Acelas' zing by, ya hardly notice.
Id you're not watching they will zip by, not noticed. EVen my dire
prediction that they would be stacking up corpses like chordwood didn't come
true, as E-Trains are really quiet! NO sounds til it's THERE! Ask the good
folks in Portland about those sneaky, quiet ,MAX trains! Well, their on a
learning curve, there<G>!Yes, Catenary is UGLY! They coulda put a pole in
the center of the tracks, after moving them apart about a foot, to allow
clearance, a crossarm to hold things up, like the old Trolley lines did 100
years ago, to save materials, or sent the electrical people to Switzerland,
France and Wherever, to see a cleaner system, estecticly. John Wayland
coulda been the tech advisor for Amtrak; He duz nice .neet wiring, the
system could look neater to the eye, but they probably wouldn't have gone
for the sound system option, he woulda offered! As stands there are TOO MANY
poles, pulloff and other regalia, to be as graceful as the stuff strung, on
300 foot centers, 80 years ago that I enjoy EVery day. As a catenary
connisour, I like to show off the graceful stuff to anybody that will
listen, can point out the EVolution of cabling over the years in a 72 mile 3
voltage ride.
> And of course the best way to power these is
> electric, the most secure, eff, eco, reliable source
> of energy.
>
Yup! We ALL can agree on that, 'lectrics go great, coast along at 75 to
90 mph, about 200 amps, keep picking up speed ya hafta be careful, when
flying electrics that you maintain posted speeds, they keep saying" Come ON
, I can do better than this!" "Let me RUN" But if you did, you would be
yelled at big time by managment!
> > > > Does anyone know what the resistance actually
> > is?
> > >Mostly air resistance, making and keeping thart train size hole in the
air takes power. Wind tunnel testing of trains goes back to the turn of the
century, the LAST one, to cut down on coal consumption. But trains have gone
with the Form Follows Function theory. The new crop of Diseasel Lokies sure
proves the point. The new GE's that Amtrak has have the CD of a shoebox or
barn, at least the older F-40's dd nod to a bit of wind dynamics, with a
slight vee shape of the nose, and Did look like classic rounded off 1930's
Diesel styling, which IMHO they should go back to, make the train eye
catching as they were when they swept the steamers from the rails after the
war. You can't go too crazy with train design. It hasto fit the existing
infrastructure, clearances, bridges, platforms. That's why you can couple a
Pullman car older than the Titanic, into an Antrak train, It's gotta be
steel, no Woodies! and go for a ride. It is done daily, as there is a
fraturnity of private RR car owners that are as fanatic as EVers on the
list, and travel in regal style and confort, albiet, with DEEEP pockets,
whereever Amtrak goes. Nope, you can't hook it to the ACELA,Well, you could,
but they won't lettya! Image thing , you know! But most others :Zephyr,
Empire Builder, and those guys can haul you.Now THAT would be a nice way to
arrive at Woodburn, car aboard, there is a nice RR track RIGHT near by. It
only money!
> > >
> > > > While good for bulk freight, it's way too heavy
> for passengers, light cargo. Like using a SUV to haul
> 1 person around.
That was always the down side of RR passenger stuff, the seat weight of
a train compares with a big car, something like 3-4k lbs per seat. Only
saving grace is it can be electric.
> There is a mandated Hi speed, 120 mph+, train to
> be built in Fla. The first leg of many around the
> state to go in between Tampa, Orlando and Cape
> Canaveral that is to have a ground breaking next year.
> It could use some bids if anyone knows anyone in the
> business.
Well, I'll pass on that offer, thanks.Boy! It could be a job for life
for CT Hi-way contractors!!! But it's been along time coming! Like up here,
the New Haven WAS gunna electrify in 1915 to Boston, but never got around to
it. Just got done 2 years ago. We don't rush into things on the RR!
About time! Fla is flat as a table top, should be easy to build right
of way streight across the place, but I'm sure the NIMBYS will say that
it'll ruin the alagaters, fish, manitees, love bugs, or mosquetos. But it
would be a great demo thing for the rest of the USA. For the cost of a few
Nuke subs, we could be doing hi-speed railing HERE! A .10 sense per gal gas
tax could pay for it.
> > Seetya.....on the train
> >
> > Bob
>
>
