EV Digest 2378
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Commuta-Car Motor
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: registering a conversion as an EV
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) acceptable temperature range
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Heater element switching
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Electric Jeep?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Aspire weight
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
by jon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: liquid vs direct air heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Th!nk City
by Nick Carter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Heater relays and elements
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Heater relays and elements
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Electric Heater controls
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: For Sale at any Price?...NOT!
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) OT-huffington article
by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Electric Heater controls
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Electric Heater controls
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) re: Electric Heater controls
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Heater relays and elements
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Heater relays and elements
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Electric Heater controls
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Heater relays and elements
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The GE motor that was used in the Citi-Car or commuta-Car was a 3/4ths motor
in that the end bell housing was part of the differential which started life
as a Club Car golf cart. Looking back 20 years in my files, it's a 6hp 48Vdc
15min run time model 5BC49JB327C. I had the last commuta-Car made by Jim
Tervort when he took over from Bob Beaumont. This last design had bigger
brushes, a beafier commutator and a 30 minute run time. I ran my
cheese-wedge at 60V on this motor. The model number was a bit different like
a 247 instead of 327. I can check my files at home if you like for the exact
number. Using cool operating brushes helps immensly. Replace with high
current H803 Morganite 1/2" x 5/8" copper impregnated. Craig McCann i think
is still at 530-432-5244 in Penn Valley Cal GE rep. GE layed me and others
off when they cancelled their EV program back in 99'. I sold mine back in
the 80's cause it wouldn't stop or steer especially in the rain. The Club
Car design was for low speed <15mph and not safe for 40mph operation.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: New ADC 11" motor, Citicars, an' Stuff
> Gail
>
> Are there any Motor repair shops local to you?
>
> In Upstate NY here I have found a motor repair shop
> interested in my needs for my EleckTrak E12.
>
> The men were most willing to help with troubleshooting
> and repair of the main traction motor. It was not
> that costly. And they know motors from large AC to
> small universal types.
>
> Pete
>
> 10/20/02 1:27:39 AM, gail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> >Bob Rice wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> My take on all this. Can't SOMEBODY offer this poor woman a REAL
EV?
> >> Maybe a clean, turnkey conversion? God, she has paid her dues, to drive
EV,
> >> for sure. She needs something she can keep up with traffic, and not be
in
> >> the shop more than she is on the road. She could be happy in a 90 volt
> >> Rabbit, I'm sure? Don't think she needs a 70 MPH car, like a 120 volt
Rabbit
> >> ,will do. Isn't there a EAA chapter out where she lives? I would help
her
> >> fix it up, but the distance is a bit far, EVen for a 120 volt car,G>!
> >
> >Bob,
> >
> >Thank you for trying to help with my EV problems, but I don't think you
> >understand. To me, my Citicars and Comutacars are REAL EVs. I also have
> >some others, a 120 Volt VW Beetle (with less range than my C-Cars), a 96
> >Volt Bradley GT II and a 96 Volt Aztec. I prefer the C-Cars. I have EVs
> >all over the place but only one Comutacar is running right now and it is
> >the one I was inquiring about tires for recently. Since I received
> >several responses regarding the tires I am still undecided as to which to
> >get, will try to narrow that down before another one goes flat.
>
> >>snip
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The easiest thing to do (I do) is not to confuse the beaurocrats, just
register your vehicle for what it was before the conversion "96' Geo
Tracker" and get minimum liability insurance on it. Shouldn't have any
problems passing the safety or certainly emissions test.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: registering a conversion as an EV
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: michael bearden
>
> > Well, when I got the notice for registration that said I had to have a
> > smog exam for my EV it mattered....
>
> When I registered my EV here in New Mexico, it stated plain as day in
> the remarks box "Emissions Exempt- Electric", and my title says "0
Cylinders,
> Fuel Type- Other". When I got my registration renewal notice a couple
> years later it still said "gasoline". However, I don't get an emission
> test notice anymore. I'm not going to touch that one, either.
>
> Mark Brueggemann
> Albuquerque, NM
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> S-10 EV
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A Trojan engineer (i think Jim Drizos a couple years ago) told me that the
lowest tolerable temperature is the best to regulate batteries since
longevity is porportional to temperature. He recommended 50F which is where
my charger restart is set to. (Below that temp I have difficulty getting
back home) I also keep the Jeep in the unheated detached garage which helps
ambient.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Optima batteries - acceptable temperature range
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Just reviewing the battery temperature range for Optimas, because if too
hot
> > they vent (lose moisture) and too cold they cannot deliver full
capacity.
> >
> > According to specs:
> > BCI is based on 80 degrees F (26.7 degrees C)
> > BCI = 120 minute at 25a discharge,to 10.5v cut-off
> >
> > Victor's controls try to keep batteries no less than 20 degree C (= 68.0
> > degree F)
>
> Ed,
>
> If you're talking about me, my pack is kept at 30'C (86'F).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Koch KTA Services has an excellent ceramic heater kit i used in my Geo
Tracker. It replaces the heater core.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 4:54 PM
Subject: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
> It is getting cold up in CT and my wife wants heat.. When I got the blazer
> it was missing everything under the hood for the ac/heater including the
> blower motor and vents. I found the vacuum for the switches also leaks
> horribly and much of the under dash pieces are broken and or missing. So
> fixing what is going to take a lot of time if I use the proper parts.
> I recall reading of people using Hair Dryers and was wondering what kind
you
> could use?
> Is there anything special to look for like one with no added features?
> I already have the switch and relay wired to proper rated equipment so I
> don't have to worry about the AC rated switch on the hair dryer. Also I
> currently have 144vdc and will have 156vdc soon. Is it possible to run two
> dryers in series so it's safer or lasts longer, or does it matter?
> If anyone has any alternate suggestions that would work better/safer
please
> let me know.
>
> Mark Hastings
> '83 S-10 EV Blazer
> www.geocities.com/evblazer
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And make sure you use a contactor wired to the heater blower so it will only
come on when the blower is on.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2002 5:16 PM
Subject: Re: What kind of Hair Dryer for DC Defrost/Heat..
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > It is getting cold up in CT and my wife wants heat.. When I got the
blazer
> > it was missing everything under the hood for the ac/heater including the
> > blower motor and vents. I found the vacuum for the switches also leaks
> > horribly and much of the under dash pieces are broken and or missing. So
> > fixing what is going to take a lot of time if I use the proper parts.
> > I recall reading of people using Hair Dryers and was wondering what kind
you
> > could use?
> > Is there anything special to look for like one with no added features?
> > I already have the switch and relay wired to proper rated equipment so I
> > don't have to worry about the AC rated switch on the hair dryer. Also I
> > currently have 144vdc and will have 156vdc soon. Is it possible to run
two
> > dryers in series so it's safer or lasts longer, or does it matter?
> > If anyone has any alternate suggestions that would work better/safer
please
> > let me know.
> >
> > Mark Hastings
> > '83 S-10 EV Blazer
> > www.geocities.com/evblazer
> Hey folks lets not forget to use the Ceramic heater elements in our
> heater for Deforst and air. They are so much safer than Nichrome metal
> wire elements. They don't runaway, and melt on you, just get hot, and no
> hotter.
> Also they go for about $20 wrapped in a nice heater from Home DePot.
> Nice cheap But yes keep a eye on the DC switches that you will need.
> Most hair dryers are Nichrome, and make WAY too much noise, and the
> blowers are.....rather inefficient.
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used low side mosfets to switch my two cores in four stages. When off the
heater circuit is isolated by an ordinary 250VAC relay, but it never has to
switch current. I used a linear regulator to derive the gate drive, but there
are photovoltaic isolators that could give a much simpler drive to the fets.
Paul Compton
BVS technical officer www.bvs.org.uk
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it your Jeep that is electric? I haven't heard of many Jeep
conversions. Do you have a web page for it? Thanks.
I've thought a CJ/Wrangler with a fiberglass body could make for a
neat conversion.
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> back home) I also keep the Jeep in the unheated detached garage
> which helps
> ambient.
> ...
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
1sclunn wrote:
> Steve Clunn wrote:
> I see your point and having a car that ever time you pop the clutch it
> inspires somebody to go electric is something you don't want to sell. (I'll
> bet somebody reading your post is thinking about converting one now :-).
Everyone has their own thing that they do to promote EVs. Some do it by showing how a
range-oriented EV can really go more than the suspected 20-30 mile range, Dick Finley
and
I did it with our 120 mile range Red Beastie, Sheer's doing it with his 100+ mile
Honda,
and others do it, too. Some do it by making a minimalist type of EV or by driving a
basic
CitiCar, to show that EVs can be inexpensive to get into and easy to work on. Some do
it
by driving a basic conversion everyday, that regular folks see all the time, going
about
their business whether running errands or commuting back and forth to work. Some do it
by
touting the enviro aspects of an EV and downplaying performance. Some do it by buying
or
leasing a factory EV...putting their money where their mouth is. All of these are or
course, valid, and each individual has their particular take on what works best.
For me, absolutely blowing away preconceived notions by having an EV with outrageous
performance (all EVs are slow), and outrageous stereo (you can't turn the radio on
without
running the batteries down), a show car look and feel (EVs are all rolling science
projects), terrific cornering and braking (EVs are lethargic and handle poorly), and
all
the interior and trunk space it had as a gas car (EVs are nothing but a bunch of oozing
batteries taking up all of the space), is the way I like to do it. When folks ask if it
can go 70 mph (as if all EVs are as slow as golf cars), I delight in lighting up the
tires, banging 2nd gear and doing it again, and rushing them up to 80 or 90 mph in a
big
hurry (the car can actually bury its 100 mph speedo quite easily). Yes, this is a bit
radical, but they NEVER forget their breathless ride in an EV, and will no doubt tell
the
tale over and over to their non-believing acquaintances. When someone asks me the goofy
question about a radio that might drain the batteries and run down the car in the
middle
of the freeway, I sit them down in Blue Meanie and play the competition stereo system
as
they go into shock that an EV could actually have such a sound system on board. When
they
ask if my trunk is full of batteries, I delight in first, hitting a button on the 6
function remote and popping the trunk lid to reveal a spacious, carpeted and detailed
trunk...I then continue with the show and tell by lifting the false floor to display
the
audio amplifiers and CD changer, again, neatly organized and looking clean and
detailed....then, and this is always the best part, I hit another button to activate
the
remote controlled motorized rear battery tray, and as the motor hums away and the 7
extra
Optimas (caressed in stainless steel brackets, interconnected with gold plated
hardware,
and covered with sparkling Plexiglass) roll out into view, they usually gasp....telling
them it doubles as a trash compactor is the icing in the cake!
Is all of this over-the-top stuff necessary? For me, yes! I like to make sure someone's
first EV experience, is one that will blow their socks off.
> But what if somebody brought you a Datsun just like the one you have .
Sadly, the possibility of somebody showing up with a clean and straight '71-'73 Datsun
1200, is pretty remote these days. I only see them at Datsun show & shine EVents, or
rarely, on the streets of Portland, as there are a couple of nice ones around. You
have to
remember, that these 1200's were Datsun's cheapest econo-cars they offered, at $1795 in
1971! Though they were very rugged, well built little machines, they were pretty much
thought of as disposable cars, and most folks treated them this way, beating the hell
out
of them and driving them into the ground. Most 1200's were bought by young, first time
car
buyers, who quickly turned them into beaters in a year's time.
> What would you charge to make it just like yours (blue meanie 2) ? Could you do
> it for less that 25k ? I think a lot of people after seeing you smoke the
> tires would take a Blue Meanie 2 over a ford Think.
It can be done for far less than that. Minus the custom paint job, custom interior, and
full blown sound system, it's really just a DCP 1200 Raptor, an ADC 9 inch, 13
Optimas, a
PFC20, DC-DC, etc., stuffed into a car that weighed just 1587 lbs. as a gas car.
Anybody
could take about $8000 and a clean 1200 sedan (if they could find one), and minus the
extra weight of all the stereo stuff, motorized battery tray,
etc. that mine has, kick Blue Meanie's butt with a lighter and even faster version.
Keep
in mind, that for many folks, Blue Meanie's short range of 25 miles is unacceptable
(range
per charge was never a big concern for me with this car, V8 performance was), but
another
way to go, is do the same car but with 16 Optimas for a 192V system and about 30-35
miles
range. Using the lighter NiZN batteries, one could get perhaps three times the range,
and
although at less performance, it would still be a pretty fun little car.
> I don't know about you but I'm having more fun playing
> with my EV's now than I ever did 30 years ago when I was rebuilding gas
> cars. Kids today don't have the opportunity to rebuild cars like we did
> years ago. Gas is just not fun any more (leaves a bad taste in your mouth
> ;-( .
Yes, I feel exactly the same way...have felt this way for 22+ years now :-) Before
White
Zombie was the all electric 1/4 mile drag car it is today, I had made it into a pretty
radical gas street machine. I kept the factory 1200cc engine, but went from a stock 69
HP,
to about 150 HP. Along with a racing rear axle and a never-offered-from-the-factory 5
speed tranny, I beefed the motor up with 11.5:1 compression, custom Japanese-only fully
cc'd racing head with huge oval ports, custom intake manifold with a pair of huge, twin
barrel 45 mm Weber sidedrafts, gnarly twisted headers, 2.5 inch exhaust, racing
distributor, racing high lift, high duration, high pollution cam, etc. The thing
rumpety-rumpety idled at 1500 rpm, was OK from 1500-5000 rpm, and came on like a gang
busters from 5k-10k!!! It was a fun and fast gas 1200. However....I don't miss the
stench
and mess of all that one bit these days. Once you cross over to electric, you never go
back. These days, I cringe at having to take my Insight in for an oil change!
See Ya........John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Talk about a lead sled. The green machine or as the kids call it Freddy
Ford is a bit of a pig. It weighs 3500 pounds with me in it. 1840 front
1600 rear. That is from a dump scale. I think it's right at least on the
gross weight. I calculated 3300 curb weight. Take 250 my weight from 3500
that and that is 3250. Not bad for an educated guess. There is a few
pounds missing in the front to rear and it might be because the car is high
in the back and low in the front. The surface seemed level at the scale.
I am concerned about the lightness of the rear. It has 800 pounds behind
and in front of the rear axle. If I raise the front a bit might this change
the front to rear weight ratio? A little confused because the front and
rear weights don't add up right. Lawrence Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The coat and boots and other cold weather clothing can
only solve half the problem. Defogging and defrosting the
windows needs heat applied to the glass. Yes, the coat
sleeves do work as defoggers, but not nearly as well as warm
air directed at the glass. This isn't just a comfort issue, it's
a safety issue, too. In most venues, there are laws about
driving with obscured windows and sometimes citations are
issued.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:09 AM
Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
>
> I have found the best heater is a good winter coat and some boots.
> This may sound stupid, but the 25-40amp current draw on my 200V NiCd pack
> seems to be more than I'm willing to give up when the winter coat works
> just fine.
> My wife disagrees, but I just tell her the heater is broken and save
plenty
> of amp-hours
> in the process :-)
> Rod
>
>
>
> On 21 Oct 2002 at 17:40, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> > Can one estimate how efficient ceramic heaters are in terms of
> > converting electric watts into Joules (sorry, BTUs)?
> >
> > I want to know if I get, say 100V 5A ceramic heater(s) in the place
> > of former heater core and blow an air through it, will I get
> > more/equal/less heat than if I get 100V 5A water heater, immerse it
> > in a small water tank circulating hot water through the stock core,
> > and blow equal amount of air through that core?
>
> The more direct the connection between the busy little electrons and the
> occupants' bodies, the lower the losses. Probably the ideal heater is
> heated
> suits for the driver and passengers.
>
> If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is
> to heat
> the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only
> advantage
> to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave
the
> old
> heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially)
> wastes
> more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
>
> David Roden
> Akron OH USA
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but good old JC Whitney has
little defrosters/heaters that have a cigarette lighter plug attached, all
ready to go:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/productnoitem.jhtml?CATID=59029&BQ=jcw2
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5639&BQ=jcw2
http://www.jcwhitney.com/product.jhtml?CATID=5632&BQ=jcw2
Yeah, yeah, I know these draw some amps, but for a short drive,
they certainly make life a bit clearer.
Jon
On Tue, 22 Oct 2002, Thomas Shay wrote:
> The coat and boots and other cold weather clothing can
> only solve half the problem. Defogging and defrosting the
> windows needs heat applied to the glass. Yes, the coat
> sleeves do work as defoggers, but not nearly as well as warm
> air directed at the glass. This isn't just a comfort issue, it's
> a safety issue, too. In most venues, there are laws about
> driving with obscured windows and sometimes citations are
> issued.
>
> Tom Shay
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 5:09 AM
> Subject: Re: Ceramic heating element efficiency
>
>
> >
> > I have found the best heater is a good winter coat and some boots.
> > This may sound stupid, but the 25-40amp current draw on my 200V NiCd pack
> > seems to be more than I'm willing to give up when the winter coat works
> > just fine.
> > My wife disagrees, but I just tell her the heater is broken and save
> plenty
> > of amp-hours
> > in the process :-)
> > Rod
> >
> >
> >
> > On 21 Oct 2002 at 17:40, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > > Can one estimate how efficient ceramic heaters are in terms of
> > > converting electric watts into Joules (sorry, BTUs)?
> > >
> > > I want to know if I get, say 100V 5A ceramic heater(s) in the place
> > > of former heater core and blow an air through it, will I get
> > > more/equal/less heat than if I get 100V 5A water heater, immerse it
> > > in a small water tank circulating hot water through the stock core,
> > > and blow equal amount of air through that core?
> >
> > The more direct the connection between the busy little electrons and the
> > occupants' bodies, the lower the losses. Probably the ideal heater is
> > heated
> > suits for the driver and passengers.
> >
> > If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient way is
> > to heat
> > the air directly with a heating element of some kind. IMO, the only
> > advantage
> > to a liquid heater is that it's easier to install because you can leave
> the
> > old
> > heater core in place. But it heats up more slowly, and (potentially)
> > wastes
> > more energy through losses in the tank and plumbing.
> >
> > David Roden
> > Akron OH USA
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--
Jon Kenneke KA7PGB
Kenneke Communications
http://www.kenneke.com
Radio Takena KTK
Listen at: http://www.live365.com/stations/kenneke
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
>> If you are going to heat the air in the vehicle, the more efficient
>> way is to heat the air directly with a heating element of some kind.
Though, a heat pump would be more efficient yet. Heating the occupants
and glass instead of the whole car would also be more efficient (like
heated seats and windows). Insulating the car would greatly reduce the
amount of heat needed in any case (most cars are uninsulated tin cans).
Gary Graunke wrote:
> I noted that some of the EV suppliers sell 1500W ceramic heater cores
> as well.
This can be a good solution if it fits in your car, and if it isn't too
difficult to get the old heater core out and the new one in.
Minnesota winters are more severe than most, but I have found that 1500w
is only adequate for a small car in a mild winter. For most cars, you'll
need more like 3000w to match the stock heater's performance.
Many ceramic heaters deliver significantly less than their rated heat
output. As they heat up, their resistance goes up, so their heat output
goes down. A typical 120vac "1500w" ceramic heater actually draws about
900 watts once it is warmed up. If you force more air through them with
a bigger fan, they produce more watts of heat but the temperature of the
air coming out of them drops to where it won't effectively melt ice on a
windshield. So, it may make sense to design to allow TWO ceramic
heaters.
> I also had some notes from an OEVA meeting on heater relays--the note
> said to use magnetic blowout relays--the others are a fire hazard.
> However, I haven't really found any that have the appropriate DC
> voltage rating, especially for a higher voltage (>200V) pack.
This is very true! If you try to switch high voltage DC with a standard
AC-rated switch, the contacts will quickly be destroyed from arcing.
The two basic ways to get a relay to safely switch high voltage DC is
with magnetic blowouts, or large contact spacings (i.e. several contacts
in series). The Potter & Brumfield (now owned by Tyco) PRD series relay
is commonly used because it can be ordered with magnetic blowouts. For
example, the PRD-7DHO-12 is a DPST-NO relay with a 12vdc coil and can
switch up to 25a and 125vdc per contact. With the two contacts in
series, it can switch up to 250vdc.
The P&B KUP series is also available with magnetic blowouts, and you can
get up to 3-pole versions; they will switch 10a at up to 375vdc.
Kilovac has some small contactors that will switch high voltage DC. I
don't have their rating handy, but the smallest would certainly work for
heaters.
One last point. Switches and relays that switch DC benefit considerably
by having a "snubber" circuit across their contacts. This is a series
network consisting of a capacitor and resistor. For the ceramic elements
we are talking about here, a 0.1uf to 1.0uf capacitor and 10-100 ohm
resistor is adequate. The higher the load current, the higher the
capacitance and less the resistance, but values are not critical.
> Wayland recommended that, due to the complexity of the Insight
> climate control, I use a small liquid system rather than the easier
> replacement ceramic heater under the dash as he normally does.
I'd say this depends on how hard it is to get at the existing heater
core. The ceramic heaters are self-limiting (even zero airflow won't
burn them out); thus, a variable speed fan or an air proportioning valve
still works as it would with the hot water system.
It seems like kind of a waste to convert such a lightweight efficient
vehicle by adding heavy bulky heater compononts. The water, pump,
heater, etc. are going to weigh considerably more than a ceramic
element.
> Do you need a pump to circulate the water?
It might be possible to build a "gravity" or steam system. The box with
the resistive heater would be below the heater core. The heater core's
hose (or hoses) must come out the bottom. A large hose would connect the
heater to the heater core. Here's how it works:
- The resistor boils water in the heater
- Steam goes up the pipe to the heater core
- Steam condenses back into water, giving up its heat
- water runs back down the same pipe to the heater
No pump is needed. The system is sealed. Warm-up is extremely fast,
because only a tiny amount of water is used. A pressure switch cycles
the heating element on/off.
> Is the electrical isolation more of a problem, given the liquid
> conductor vs air?
It can be. Most consumer-grade immersion heaters have a thin outside
metal case which is grounded. Inside is a length of resistive wire,
insulated by ceramic. The ceramic is pretty effective for preventing
outright shorts to ground, but at high temperatures, the ceramic has a
lot of leakage current to ground, which can trip GFCIs. The key to
preventing this is to not run the heaters at too high a watt density, so
they don't run their heating wires red hot.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>ASlong these lines sure would be nice to have a heated windshield, like the
>newer locomotives have, wires coming off the wires imbedded in the glass.
>You don't see them, but they don't ice an' fog up. Guess if ya were doing a
>no- holds-barred- EV ya could have something like that.
>
The Th!nk City has this...
and heated rear hatch/window as well...
and a great ceramic heater.
>it for less that 25k ? I think a lot of people after seeing you smoke the
>tires would take a Blue Meanie 2 over a ford Think. Do you think that maybe
>the ford com is so in-love with there Think that they just don't want to
>sell it (ha ha ). I don't know about you but I'm having more fun playing
I wouldn't swap our Th!nk (it's a rental) and wouldn't sell it
**if we could buy it**... but of course that's another
story. Many of the Th!nk drivers feel the same way.
Please remember that we are on the same side in this
struggle. In a similar vein, I don't disparage NEVs because I know
some people love them, despite their limited performance... the problem
there is the auto makers are marketing them for the wrong reasons.
Did everyone see the EV coverage in Saturday's
LATimes and Ariana Huffington's recent column about oil?
Nick
Dr Nick Carter,
Owner, npc Imaging,
3000 Cleveland Avenue, Suite 209,
Santa Rosa CA 95403-2117
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Tel/fax: +1 (707) 573 9361
http://www.npcimaging.com
Th!nk City EV driver (approaching 7,000 miles) &
President, North Bay Chapter, Electric Auto Association
***************************************************************
** Now available at npcimaging.com... **
** Music Engraving Today by Steve Powell now in stock. **
** The Art of Music Engraving and Processing by Ted Ross & **
** Handbook of Instrumentation, both on CD-ROM **
** 41 CD sheet music titles: thousands of pages from $14.95! **
** Books by Stone, Ross, Gerou & Lusk, Stiller, Gamble, etc. **
***************************************************************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" wrote:
>
> >I also had some notes from an OEVA meeting on heater relays--the note said
> >to use magnetic blowout relays--the others are a fire hazard. However, I
> >haven't really found any that have the appropriate DC voltage rating,
> >especially for a higher voltage (>200V) pack.
I'll use solid state (thyristor, yes, for DC) switch, that's given.
We don't have very cold weather in Portland, practically never snows.
I'm trying to decide id a few watts of loss worth ripping apart the
dash.
BTW, other than U-shaped water heating element and overloaded
large ceramic resistor immersed in water, can anyone suggest a
good water heating element? Will just two metal plates immersed
in salty water do the trick?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:55 PM 10/22/2002 -0700, Victor Tikhonov stated:
BTW, other than U-shaped water heating element and overloaded
large ceramic resistor immersed in water, can anyone suggest a
good water heating element? Will just two metal plates immersed
in salty water do the trick?
Water heater elements are cheap and common. Many surplus places have them
for 1 or 2 bucks. Seems like that would be the easiest solution.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Sparrow has a (ceramic?) heater in it. The problem I have is that it's
TOO MUCH heat. (and not enough air - wimpy muffin fan.) It would be real
nice to be able to turn down the heater output.
Is there any not-too-expensive way to do this?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, October 22, 2002, at 02:29 PM, John Wayland wrote:
Sadly, the possibility of somebody showing up with a clean and
straight '71-'73 Datsun
1200, is pretty remote these days.
I just bought a 1972 Datsun 240Z for conversion ($1200). It has been
sitting for 25 years so the engine will most likely need only minor
tinkering to run, then hopefully I can sell it. The interior is mint,
the body is pretty darn good considering the age. Should be a fun 192V
conversion...
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
My electric truck page, with lots of photos and a 25 page conversion
journal. Check it out!
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/ (no more popups!)
My EV Album page
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the OT, but this was an awesome article.
The new add campaign against inefficiency,
instead of 'I bought drugs so I helped the terrorist'
the real theme should be 'I bought an SUV to help support terrorist
activity'
This would have a much more profound effect of bringing EV's to
the attention of all the SUV driving flag wavers.
Just think, we could put an flag on our EV and proudly and accurately state
that we don't support terrorism.
http://www.ariannaonline.com/columns/files/102102.html
Check out the article for yourself.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If your heating element is like the one most of use, it has five
wires and four ceramic heating sections. You can disconnect
one or two or even three heating sections to reduce the
heat.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:01 PM
Subject: Electric Heater controls
> My Sparrow has a (ceramic?) heater in it. The problem I have is that it's
> TOO MUCH heat. (and not enough air - wimpy muffin fan.) It would be real
> nice to be able to turn down the heater output.
> Is there any not-too-expensive way to do this?
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:13 PM 10/22/2002 -0700, Thomas Shay stated:
If your heating element is like the one most of use, it has five
wires and four ceramic heating sections. You can disconnect
one or two or even three heating sections to reduce the
heat.
Last time I looked it only had 2 wires. I guess it might have more
internally, but I don't remember seeing any more when I had it open last time.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>My Sparrow has a (ceramic?) heater in it. The problem I have is that it's
>TOO MUCH heat. (and not enough air - wimpy muffin fan.) It would be real
>nice to be able to turn down the heater output.
>Is there any not-too-expensive way to do this?
Is it a standard(?) ceramic element with 5 connections? As I recall (it was
over a year ago) mine was wired with one side of the pack going to every
other connection, i.e. if the connections were numbered (from one side to
the other) 1,2,3,4,5 then one side of the pack was wired to 1&3&5 in
parallel. The other side of the pack was wired to 2&4 in parallel.
If you were to say disconnect #2 then only half the element would be active
and that should cut your heat in half.
Actually the best way would probably be to disconnect 1 and 5, this would
leave the center half of the element active with the outsides colder. I.e.
the electricity would flow from 3 to 2&4.
Use a switch and you can have high and low heat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> We don't have very cold weather in Portland, practically never snows.
Uh hummm...Victor, while Portland's winters are mild compared to say, Minnesota
winters,
or perhaps compared to the kind of winters you had in your homeland, you're still a bit
off here...perhaps you haven't been living here long enough to realize that our recent
winters have been milder than what is the norm. On the east side near the mouth of the
Columbia Gorge where I live, we usually get an ice storm each year, with temps at 20-25
degrees for days on end. When they hit, we lose power for a few days, cars slide
sideways,
driving is all but impossible, and attempting to walk across the ice-covered grass of
your
yard is like walking on ball bearings! One year, as our house faces directly into the
icy
east wind coming out of the gorge, we had 2 inches of ice coating the entire front, so
bad, that the front door would not open! We also, get snow pretty much every year,
though
the last two winters have been very mild and the snow was only a dusting. I can
remember
one winter about 20 years ago, where we had 11 inches of snow, and most winters we get
anywhere from 2 to 6 inches of snow, and usually on several occasions each winter.
Also,
about 10 Novembers ago, we had single digit nighttime temps for the better part of a
week. In the Pacific Northwest, our weather kind of rotates every ten years or so, and
we're due to have colder winters as as happened in the past.
>From Lee:
>I have found that 1500w is only adequate for a small car in a mild winter.
Hmm, sounds awfully close to what I've been saying. I use a single element in Blue
Meanie's heater, and just as Lee says, it's fine in this small car in milder cold
temps,
but when we get those days of teens up to the mid 20's and with a 35 mph east wind
huffing
away, I wish I had those twin elements I put in Red Beastie!
>For most cars, you'll
>need more like 3000w to match the stock heater's performance.
>From my own post:
>I used twin elements in Red Beastie's heater, and it was pretty
>much like the factory heater that came with the truck, only of course, it was
>instant-on
:-)
Portland is pretty temperate compared to the severe winters that other places get, but
it
nonetheless, can get quite cold here, unless you think temps in the teens and low 20's
is
the banana belt...don't forget to factor in that awful wind chill from the east gorge
winds. I travel quite a bit, and I'll take a 10 degree, low humidity, no wind winter
any
day, over a 25 degree day at my place at 95% humidity with a 40 mph east wind!
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some ideas:
Snake a heater wire (one that can get wet) through the heater core,
and fill with oil. No pump now needed, and less heat is wasted on the
engine side of the firewall.
Put the heater on a timer so you can go to a prewarmed car, while
still plugged in.
Fill a tube with a phase-change material that melts around 30 or 40 C
(like wax). Melt it while plugged in, and it will slowly release heat
as it solidifies. You could even build something like this in
segments, and have a segment near each passenger's feet, below each
door handle, etc.
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> BTW, other than U-shaped water heating element and overloaded
> large ceramic resistor immersed in water, can anyone suggest a
> good water heating element? Will just two metal plates immersed
> in salty water do the trick?
> ...
=====
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Y! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your web site
http://webhosting.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, one more stupid idea and I'll stop.
If I want to defrost the windows and preheat
the vehicle without loosing range, I crank up the heat
and turn on the charger. My charger puts out 26 amps
with a 230Vac single phase input, once the heating elements
stabilize it's pretty much a wash, all charging amps
go into heating the vehicle. Once it's warmed up and defrosted
I'm ready to go and it takes very little heat to keep the windows
defrogged.
Rod
Thomas Shay wrote:
If your heating element is like the one most of use, it has five
wires and four ceramic heating sections. You can disconnect
one or two or even three heating sections to reduce the
heat.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2002 1:01 PM
Subject: Electric Heater controls
My Sparrow has a (ceramic?) heater in it. The problem I have is that it's
TOO MUCH heat. (and not enough air - wimpy muffin fan.) It would be real
nice to be able to turn down the heater output.
Is there any not-too-expensive way to do this?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@;CasaDelGato.Com
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a benifit with John's vehicle since it can probably
slide across the ice with very low coeficient of friction by using the
sonic boom of the speakers with the stereo cranked up :-)
I seen the wind powered car from Woodburn, but imagine a
stereo powered car on ice!!! very cool indeed.
Rod
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
We don't have very cold weather in Portland, practically never snows.
Uh hummm...Victor, while Portland's winters are mild compared to say, Minnesota winters,
or perhaps compared to the kind of winters you had in your homeland, you're still a bit
off here...perhaps you haven't been living here long enough to realize that our recent
winters have been milder than what is the norm. On the east side near the mouth of the
Columbia Gorge where I live, we usually get an ice storm each year, with temps at 20-25
degrees for days on end. When they hit, we lose power for a few days, cars slide sideways,
driving is all but impossible, and attempting to walk across the ice-covered grass of your
yard is like walking on ball bearings! One year, as our house faces directly into the icy
east wind coming out of the gorge, we had 2 inches of ice coating the entire front, so
bad, that the front door would not open! We also, get snow pretty much every year, though
the last two winters have been very mild and the snow was only a dusting. I can remember
one winter about 20 years ago, where we had 11 inches of snow, and most winters we get
anywhere from 2 to 6 inches of snow, and usually on several occasions each winter. Also,
about 10 Novembers ago, we had single digit nighttime temps for the better part of a
week. In the Pacific Northwest, our weather kind of rotates every ten years or so, and
we're due to have colder winters as as happened in the past.
From Lee:
I have found that 1500w is only adequate for a small car in a mild winter.
Hmm, sounds awfully close to what I've been saying. I use a single element in Blue
Meanie's heater, and just as Lee says, it's fine in this small car in milder cold temps,
but when we get those days of teens up to the mid 20's and with a 35 mph east wind huffing
away, I wish I had those twin elements I put in Red Beastie!
For most cars, you'll
need more like 3000w to match the stock heater's performance.
From my own post:
I used twin elements in Red Beastie's heater, and it was pretty
much like the factory heater that came with the truck, only of course, it was instant-on
:-)
Portland is pretty temperate compared to the severe winters that other places get, but it
nonetheless, can get quite cold here, unless you think temps in the teens and low 20's is
the banana belt...don't forget to factor in that awful wind chill from the east gorge
winds. I travel quite a bit, and I'll take a 10 degree, low humidity, no wind winter any
day, over a 25 degree day at my place at 95% humidity with a 40 mph east wind!
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
