EV Digest 2401

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) A couple of links with documentation on freedom car and fuel cell
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Advice on buying a used EV. 
        by "Sell, Ken" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Evercel MB80
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Evercel MB80
        by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Advice on buying a used EV.
        by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Evercel MB80
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: EV digest 2400
        by Daniel J Rivest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Evercel MB80
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) auction
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: auction - the links
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Evercel MB80
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: auction - the links
        by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Flooded 6v to NiZn 12v comparison (was: Evercel group buy?)
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 14) Re: Evercel MB80 price
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) NiZn recycling?
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: auction - the links
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Q on Series Motor
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Flooded 6v to NiZn 12v comparison (was: Evercel group buy?)
        by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: RAV4 EV purchase
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 22) Re: Advice on buying a used EV. 
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: My next EV
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Prestolite RPM working speed and RPM limits
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Obtaining a Toyota RAV4 EV outside Ca.
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: auction, an' Stuff
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Happy Haloween, a day late
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) Re: Advice on buying a used EV. 
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) in Voltageville ...
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.ott.doe.gov/otu/field_ops/hydrogen_class.html
This is info about using a fuel cell in your EV

http://www.cartech.doe.gov/pdfs/FreedomCar-partnership-plan.pdf
This is about the car Bush drove off a cliff
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,

You sound just like me 6 months ago.
I ended up buying a 1984 VW Rabbit 
convertible that was converted using
an Electro Automotive kit in 1998.

The car wasn't working went I bought it,
but I wanted something that I could
fix up. The batteries were in pretty bad
shape, and there was a lot of corrosion
on the battery racks. I've just finished
re-finishing and painting the racks, and
my next project is to add heat to the
car. I also live in Silicon Valley where
the climate is mild, but I need a defogger
for safety reasons.

Given my experience so far, I'd say buying a
used conversion is a great idea. You will
get it a lot cheaper than doing a conversion
from scratch. If you go with a 914 or VW,
especially one with a "standard" conversion,
someone else has worked out most of the 
bugs in the conversion for you.

Good luck,

....Ken





-----Original Message-----
From: Kulkarni, Sudhir [mailto:sudhir.kulkarni@;certive.com]
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 9:21 AM
To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
Subject: Advice on buying a used EV. 


I am very new EV's but have been fascinated by them. 
Recently I have played with charging batteries from a 
generator coupled to a stationary bike. 
I have driven couple of EV's in the past including 
Corbin Sparrow, RAV4 EV and Porsche 914 EV. 

Rather than starting to build from a kit, 
I want to start by buying a converted EV. 
I live in the Silicon Valley and commute alone 
30miles each way (almost flat) with 
good possibility of charging at work and home. 
This means I need minimum of 45 miles of range. 
I would like it to be minimum of two seats
and prefer a convertible. Besides being a commute vehicle 
I would like it to be fun(peppy) to drive too.

After looking at several web sites, 
I am leaning towards a Porsche 914 EV.
Here are some stats: 
120V (15, 8V Golf Cart almost dead batteries), 9" ADC, C1221, E-meter etc.

Here are my questions to the experts on the list: 
(1)     Is this (914) the right choice given my requirements?
(2)     What things to look for when I go down to take a test drive? 
(3)     How do I gauge the quality of conversion? 
(4)     How to estimate the range with new batteries ? 
(5)   Pointers on how much to pay would also be useful.

Thanks in advance, 
== Sudhir ==
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
...
I am, however, still thinking of a way to use them in this,
> my favorite EV, by making up a hybrid battery pack. I could use the 117 lb.  weight
> savings from using a pack of 13, 36 lb. Evercells, by augmenting them with a 143 lb.
> booster pack of 13 of the EV racing style SVR batteries that could be automatically 
>placed
> in parallel at high current 'Wayland moments'. 

John, do you think just paralleling NiZn pack with very low capacity
PbA (like cyclons) of the same voltage can prevent deep
voltage sags during accelerations? Sort of ultra caps approach.

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've considered this also, in fact tried to convince a friend of mine to try
this. I think that a hybrid pack like this has a possibility to exhibit
'best of both worlds' - cold weather performance and range of a NiZn battery
combined with acceleration and ability to belt out the amps of a lead acid.

S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:26 PM
Subject: Re: Evercel MB80


> John Wayland wrote:
> ...
> I am, however, still thinking of a way to use them in this,
> > my favorite EV, by making up a hybrid battery pack. I could use the 117
lb.  weight
> > savings from using a pack of 13, 36 lb. Evercells, by augmenting them
with a 143 lb.
> > booster pack of 13 of the EV racing style SVR batteries that could be
automatically placed
> > in parallel at high current 'Wayland moments'.
>
> John, do you think just paralleling NiZn pack with very low capacity
> PbA (like cyclons) of the same voltage can prevent deep
> voltage sags during accelerations? Sort of ultra caps approach.
>
> Victor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:20 AM -0800 11/1/02, Kulkarni, Sudhir wrote:
Rather than starting to build from a kit,
I want to start by buying a converted EV.
I think that's a good idea.

I live in the Silicon Valley and commute alone
30miles each way (almost flat) with
good possibility of charging at work and home.
This means I need minimum of 45 miles of range.
I would like it to be minimum of two seats
and prefer a convertible. Besides being a commute vehicle
I would like it to be fun(peppy) to drive too.
Sounds like excellent requirements. I require a convertible too. I believe it's better to target 60 miles range if you are driving 30. Your batteries will last longer and you will have a better chance of making it in the winter.

After looking at several web sites,
I am leaning towards a Porsche 914 EV.
Here are some stats:
120V (15, 8V Golf Cart almost dead batteries), 9" ADC, C1221, E-meter etc.

Here are my questions to the experts on the list:
(1)	Is this (914) the right choice given my requirements?
I think yes, if you enjoy owning old cars. I do, but beware that it's a 30 year old car.

(2)	What things to look for when I go down to take a test drive?
Rust, quality and neatness of the conversion. Read this:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/914/How_to_buy_a_914.htm

(3)	How do I gauge the quality of conversion?
Find an expert whom you trust to evaluate it.

(4)	How to estimate the range with new batteries ?
Use http://www.geocities.com/hempev/EVCalculator.html

Range would be my concern with this. 914s can be very efficient yet everyone except Clare Bell seems to build them without much concern for range. Mine has 20 Optima batteries and yet only does 30 miles range if I'm very careful. It gets about 240 watt hours per mile light footed 60-65 mph. According to the EV calculator it should be doing 55 miles range. The problem is I haven't focused on it. My rear brakes drag (6 lbs of force total) rear camber is off, I have no air dam yet, and my tires were chosen more for stick than efficiency. Also I have dual motors belted together and a big heavy dragging transmission with dino oil. I've been focusing on speed instead of range.

I think that with proper tuning of the car, and using the high capacity 8V batteries, you should have no trouble in the summer. I don't know if it will be enough range when the batteries get cold, though I suspect it will be.

(5)   Pointers on how much to pay would also be useful.
That varies a lot with condition and quality of the conversion.

hth,

-Otmar-

http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Zilla "Got Amps" Shirts now available online.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How do you recharge such a pack without separating PbA from NiZn 
each time? Is it going to be a "compromise" profile?

Victor

Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> 
> I've considered this also, in fact tried to convince a friend of mine to try
> this. I think that a hybrid pack like this has a possibility to exhibit
> 'best of both worlds' - cold weather performance and range of a NiZn battery
> combined with acceleration and ability to belt out the amps of a lead acid.
> 
> S.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 1:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Evercel MB80
> 
> > John Wayland wrote:
> > ...
> > I am, however, still thinking of a way to use them in this,
> > > my favorite EV, by making up a hybrid battery pack. I could use the 117
> lb.  weight
> > > savings from using a pack of 13, 36 lb. Evercells, by augmenting them
> with a 143 lb.
> > > booster pack of 13 of the EV racing style SVR batteries that could be
> automatically placed
> > > in parallel at high current 'Wayland moments'.
> >
> > John, do you think just paralleling NiZn pack with very low capacity
> > PbA (like cyclons) of the same voltage can prevent deep
> > voltage sags during accelerations? Sort of ultra caps approach.
> >
> > Victor
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greetings everyone:

If anyone is interested in an electric bus the GSA or General Services
Administration has 3 for sale.  These are large buses. They also have a
passenger van.  If you go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and click on
automobiles in CA you will find the electric vehicles.

Regards,

Daniel
Beyond Oil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

> John, do you think just paralleling NiZn pack with very low capacity
> PbA (like cyclons) of the same voltage can prevent deep
> voltage sags during accelerations? Sort of ultra caps approach.
>

Ya know, someone's going to have to try it to find out, I guess. I'm not sure which 
way would
be the best, but I do have a seat of the pants feeling that it would be best to keep 
the packs
isolated from each other until the peak current demands are needed. I feel this way, 
because
the fully charged state of the small lead acid pack needs to be floated at around 13V 
per
battery so that they can jam out BIG amps for the first few seconds easily, but if 
they were
merely paralleled to the NiZN pack while the EV is rolling along, the booster pack 
would be
pulled down to the NiZN's lower voltage per battery level. Better still, would be to
employ a
compact but powerful DC-DC converter that would take a bit of juice from the NiZN pack 
to
keep the booster
pack at an even higher 'standby' voltage or 14.5V per battery.

I would think that Cyclons of a 10 ahr or better rating would work great, but anything
lower in
capacity (save for the now unavailable Bolder Cells) might sag too low. The 14 ahr SVR
batteries sag down too, but not that bad 'initially' right after they're freshly 
charged, even
at 900 amp levels...several seconds later, they do sag way down to the 8V level at this
high of
a continual current. My idea is to have the booster pack only see this high of a 
current demand
for a few seconds, because at least in my street EV, the 1200 amp current sucking only 
lasts
about that long, because the tires either spin and the motor revs way up (current 
falls),
or if
the tires bite, then the car lunges ahead and in a matter of seconds, it's going so 
much
faster, that again, the motor is spooling up and the back EMF naturally rolls off that 
huge
current draw. There are times, such as at 45 mph on the freeway behind a slower car, 
that
jamming the 'GO' pedal makes the Raptor send 1000+ amps out, but even then, in about 5 
seconds
or so, the car is hitting 70-75 mph and the current is rolling back due to higher motor
rpms. I
think that in this latter case, it would be possible to exceed the pack stiffening
capacity of
even a 14 ahr pack, but the best way to find out, is to try it.

It might be cool to devise a main pack and stiffening pack monitor circuit, that could 
roll
back controller current if the NiZN pack is exceeding a safe 'Max Current' mode, or if 
the
stiffening pack is running low on capacity.

See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found the web site,
https://www.gsaauctions.gov/index.jsp
but I didn't find the EV bus your talking about.
Do you have a more direct address?

Daniel J Rivest wrote:
Greetings everyone:

If anyone is interested in an electric bus the GSA or General Services
Administration has 3 for sale.  These are large buses. They also have a
passenger van.  If you go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and click on
automobiles in CA you will find the electric vehicles.

Regards,

Daniel
Beyond Oil


--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found the links, looks like the perfect
commuter vehicle for the SUV crowd....

https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/market/ItemDetail.jsp?AUCTIONID=153064&CATEGORYID=5033

https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/market/ItemDetail.jsp?AUCTIONID=153065&CATEGORYID=5033

https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/common/Mainframeset.jsp?CID=4962

https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/common/Mainframeset.jsp?CID=4962

Rod Hower wrote:
I found the web site,
https://www.gsaauctions.gov/index.jsp
but I didn't find the EV bus your talking about.
Do you have a more direct address?

Daniel J Rivest wrote:

Greetings everyone:

If anyone is interested in an electric bus the GSA or General Services
Administration has 3 for sale.  These are large buses. They also have a
passenger van.  If you go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and click on
automobiles in CA you will find the electric vehicles.

Regards,

Daniel
Beyond Oil



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
> 
> Hello to All,
> 
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> > John, do you think just paralleling NiZn pack with very low capacity
> > PbA (like cyclons) of the same voltage can prevent deep
> > voltage sags during accelerations? Sort of ultra caps approach.
> >
> 
> Ya know, someone's going to have to try it to find out, I guess. I'm not sure which 
>way would
> be the best, but I do have a seat of the pants feeling that it would be best to keep 
>the packs
> isolated from each other until the peak current demands are needed. I feel this way, 
>because
> the fully charged state of the small lead acid pack needs to be floated at around 
>13V per
> battery so that they can jam out BIG amps for the first few seconds easily, but if 
>they were
> merely paralleled to the NiZN pack while the EV is rolling along, the booster pack 
>would be
> pulled down to the NiZN's lower voltage per battery level. Better still, would be to
> employ a
> compact but powerful DC-DC converter that would take a bit of juice from the NiZN 
>pack to
> keep the booster
> pack at an even higher 'standby' voltage or 14.5V per battery.

Simply choosing lower nominal PbA pack voltage would solve this problem,
especially if you have luxury to fine tune it with 2.4V PbA cells.
 
> I would think that Cyclons of a 10 ahr or better rating would work great, but 
>anything
> lower in
> capacity (save for the now unavailable Bolder Cells) might sag too low. The 14 ahr 
>SVR
> batteries sag down too, but not that bad 'initially' right after they're freshly 
>charged, even
> at 900 amp levels...several seconds later, they do sag way down to the 8V level at 
>this
> high of
> a continual current. My idea is to have the booster pack only see this high of a 
>current demand
> for a few seconds, because at least in my street EV, the 1200 amp current sucking 
>only lasts
> about that long, because the tires either spin and the motor revs way up (current 
>falls),
> or if
> the tires bite, then the car lunges ahead and in a matter of seconds, it's going so 
>much
> faster, that again, the motor is spooling up and the back EMF naturally rolls off 
>that huge
> current draw. There are times, such as at 45 mph on the freeway behind a slower car, 
>that
> jamming the 'GO' pedal makes the Raptor send 1000+ amps out, but even then, in about 
>5 seconds
> or so, the car is hitting 70-75 mph and the current is rolling back due to higher 
>motor
> rpms. I
> think that in this latter case, it would be possible to exceed the pack stiffening
> capacity of
> even a 14 ahr pack, but the best way to find out, is to try it.
> 
> It might be cool to devise a main pack and stiffening pack monitor circuit, that 
>could roll
> back controller current if the NiZN pack is exceeding a safe 'Max Current' mode, or 
>if the
> stiffening pack is running low on capacity.

At least Siemens AC inverters have this feature. Regarding hi amps,
inverters
are limited to 280A battery amps, so PbA don't have to work *that* hard.
May be for 300+ volts low amps systems all this makes little sense.

Victor
 
> See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm so tempted.

If I didn't think my SO would kill me.. ;-)

S.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: auction - the links


> I found the links, looks like the perfect
> commuter vehicle for the SUV crowd....
>
>
https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/market/ItemDetail.jsp?AUCTIONID=15306
4&CATEGORYID=5033
>
>
https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/market/ItemDetail.jsp?AUCTIONID=15306
5&CATEGORYID=5033
>
> https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/common/Mainframeset.jsp?CID=4962
>
> https://www.gsaauctions.gov/jsp/trader/common/Mainframeset.jsp?CID=4962
>
> Rod Hower wrote:
> > I found the web site,
> > https://www.gsaauctions.gov/index.jsp
> > but I didn't find the EV bus your talking about.
> > Do you have a more direct address?
> >
> > Daniel J Rivest wrote:
> >
> >> Greetings everyone:
> >>
> >> If anyone is interested in an electric bus the GSA or General Services
> >> Administration has 3 for sale.  These are large buses. They also have a
> >> passenger van.  If you go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and click
on
> >> automobiles in CA you will find the electric vehicles.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>
> >> Daniel
> >> Beyond Oil
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, so I know that NiZn is much much better than Lead, but what about the
need for individual special chargers instead of one large standard such
as a Lester ??

On Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:36:06 -0700 John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
writes:
> Hello to All,
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Bill,
> >
> > Trojan T-145 stats:
> > RC-25 = 530min   C/20 = 244ah   6v   10-3/8"x7-1/8"x11-5/8"   
> 72.0lb
> > C/2 = 158ah
> >
> > Evercel MB80-12-8 stats:
> > RC-25 = ?min   C/1(?) = 64ah   12v   10-1/4"x5-7/8"x7-7/8"   
> 36.4lb
> >
> > So, for every two batteries (2x6v series, 2x12v parallel) you 
> have:
> > 6v   C/2 = 158ah   12v   144lb
> > 12v  C/2 = 128ah   12v    73lb
> >
> 
> Note that 144 lbs. of golf car lead acid batteries gives a 'useable' 
> 158 ahrs, while half
> that weight in Evercells gives 128 ahrs. At the C/1 rate, which the 
> golf car battery
> manufacturers don't even want to talk about, I bet that half the 
> weight in Evercells
> matches or exceeds the ahrs of the lead acid batteries. Consider the 
> same comparison at
> freezing or below outside temperatures, and the Evercells will 
> simply blow away the golf
> car lead acid batteries. Also keep in mind, that it is basically 
> impossible to fit enough
> 6V golf car batteries in a small car to get up to higher voltages, 
> but this is easily done
> with the light weight 12V Evercell modules.
> 
> See Ya......John Wayland
> 
> 


________________________________________________________________
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
that's one of the points of the whole Evercell/NiCad/NiMH scene <snip>
OK, I sharpened my pencil and looked at the numbers again. I was being smart enough to compare the 64 Ahr Evercels to my nominal 165 Ahr rated flooded pack, which gets more like 65-70 real life Ahrs (on a good day).

But I was seriously off on the appropriate pack size... 22 Evercels (MB80s) would give me an 800 pound pack... which turns out to be the exact same as what Sheer is using. Oops. Obviously if I take the same pack he uses in a car and put it in my heavy truck, I won't go as far as he does. To be fair if I fill the same volume as now filled by lead acid, I would be using 1380 pounds of Evercels at about $9500 (half my previous bad math) - which matches your estimates of what would get me the 100+ mile range.

So it is a matter of logistics that I can easily drop 22 MB80s in place of the golf cart batteries, but I'd really need to design new battery boxes to work with the Evercel sizes to fit more in. Which makes it a project for the next truck (or they need to produce some taller batteries :-)

Consider the cold weather performance of the Evercells (they laugh at
cold weather when lead acid is shaking, quivering, and down to half
> their 'delivered' ahs)

This would of course be a great advantage as I live in the North East. However, looking at their web page, it states:
"Nickel-zinc batteries can operate from -10C (14F) to 50C (122F) in normal load ranges and performance levels. At very high power the temperature limits are narrower. Charging can be achieved at temperatures from 0C (32F) to 40C (104F). Charging outside this range is possible but shortens the life of the battery."

So if my truck is going to sit in the driveway charging overnight in January with a low of 4F and then be driven when all of 20F outside, I still need to have some sort of thermal management so as to not shorten the life of the battery. It is a lot easier to bring the batteries up to say 40 rather than the 80 that flooded's need, but something is still needed.

Although if these batteries perform more consistently anywhere within the specified range, that could help a lot as with the floodeds one problem is the bigger groups can run 20 degrees or so above the smaller groupings, which of course leads to balance problems.


> The Evercells on the other hand, are rated at 500-600 cycles at heavy
discharges. If you have a vehicle that has 100+ miles of range per
> cycle, the Evercells then last for 50,000-60,000 miles! When
was the last time you ever saw a pack of flooded batteries do that?
Also from their web site: "Evercel nickel-zinc batteries can provide 10,000 shallow cycles (10% Depth Of Discharge) and up to 500 very deep cycles (100% DOD) in normal use with approved charging method."

This would indeed be very nice.


_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was under the impression I had to get the batteries to 2.4 v/cell
> during the bulk charge. Are my batteries just too tired to do this?
> As a reminder, when I got the Tropica, the voltage across the entire
> pack was 2.4. Any recommendations?

In the movie "The Princess Bride", Magic Max the Wizard says the hero is
only "mostly dead". This is in contrast to "all dead", in which case all
you can do is go thru his pockets for loose change, etc.

Well, your batteries are "mostly dead". They aren't going to behave
normally after their near-death experience. For one, they probably did
get sulfated, and now have less capacity, a lower fully-charged voltage,
and higher gassing rates.

What can you do? Simply cycling them and keeping a close watch to avoid
further abuse will help. They will slowly recover, somewhat like an
accident victim gradually getting his health back after serious
injuries.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- From the Evercel web site:

"Environmental Status: This battery technology provides the lowest impact to the environment of any standard rechargeable battery technology on the market today. Evercel's battery meets the requirements of the EPA for disposal in landfills with regard to heavy metals. A TCLP test has been done by an independent laboratory, which confirms that the Evercel battery does not leach out controllable levels of any heavy metals. Evercel is working on the EU requirements now. Like all of the standard rechargeable batteries, this battery system contains an electrolyte -- an alkaline solution of 20% potassium hydroxide."

So does that mean they are deliberating marketing this as a disposable battery, destined for landfills? I understand the problem with small batteries from cell phones, laptops, etc. ending up in the regular trash, but to set us up to dump large batteries in a landfill is ridiculous.

What options, if any, are there for recycling NiZn batteries?

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The BlueBird QBuses have a nice enough motor, but the controller is not
reliable. These motors should do 200+kW peak. Usually gear reduced to an
output of ~3500 rpm max. So if you have a three ton lead acid pack that
will do 336V and can supply your own 3 phase AC controller (500A RMS
minimum), it's a steal. It even comes with a common driveshaft yoke (for
buses). 

I can see a bidding war between Mr Hower and Mr Pullen about to start... 

Seth



Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
> 
> I'm so tempted.
> 
> If I didn't think my SO would kill me.. ;-)
> 
> S.
>
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Seeing as I am looking to fiddle with a Sep-Ex motor, I bought a book on
motors in general, and now that I have read most of it I would say I
reccomend it.

Electric Motors & Control Techniques

ISBN 0-07-024012-4
Published by McGraw Hill
$24.95 at Borders books 

Covers from the basic to the not so basic, mechanically and
electronically commutated and includes (1994 vintage) controls for
motors. Mentions specifically motors for EV traction.

Book report is over now...

Seth
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NiZn can be charged in series just like PbA. You need a voltage regulated
charger, and you need to be somewhat careful about finishing voltage - but
this is also true for sealed PbA. Your charger needs to be capable of
starting a timer when a threshhold voltage is reached, just like the PFC-20.

S.

----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: Flooded 6v to NiZn 12v comparison (was: Evercel group buy?)


> Ok, so I know that NiZn is much much better than Lead, but what about the
> need for individual special chargers instead of one large standard such
> as a Lester ??
>
> On Fri, 01 Nov 2002 10:36:06 -0700 John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> writes:
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Bill,
> > >
> > > Trojan T-145 stats:
> > > RC-25 = 530min   C/20 = 244ah   6v   10-3/8"x7-1/8"x11-5/8"
> > 72.0lb
> > > C/2 = 158ah
> > >
> > > Evercel MB80-12-8 stats:
> > > RC-25 = ?min   C/1(?) = 64ah   12v   10-1/4"x5-7/8"x7-7/8"
> > 36.4lb
> > >
> > > So, for every two batteries (2x6v series, 2x12v parallel) you
> > have:
> > > 6v   C/2 = 158ah   12v   144lb
> > > 12v  C/2 = 128ah   12v    73lb
> > >
> >
> > Note that 144 lbs. of golf car lead acid batteries gives a 'useable'
> > 158 ahrs, while half
> > that weight in Evercells gives 128 ahrs. At the C/1 rate, which the
> > golf car battery
> > manufacturers don't even want to talk about, I bet that half the
> > weight in Evercells
> > matches or exceeds the ahrs of the lead acid batteries. Consider the
> > same comparison at
> > freezing or below outside temperatures, and the Evercells will
> > simply blow away the golf
> > car lead acid batteries. Also keep in mind, that it is basically
> > impossible to fit enough
> > 6V golf car batteries in a small car to get up to higher voltages,
> > but this is easily done
> > with the light weight 12V Evercell modules.
> >
> > See Ya......John Wayland
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> Only $9.95 per month!
> Visit www.juno.com
>
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Victor wrote:

> I have a European customer asking is it possible for him to
> buy a RAV4 EV from California resident.

You'd have to check with a current owner to see if the sales contract they signed had 
any restrictions, but I seriously doubt that the 
state could legally insert a covenant into the contract limiting who the owner could 
sell the vehicle to.


> Registering overseas is his concern 

Most European countries are less restrictive about importing vehicles than America.


> CA tax rebate is paid back to state if required.

That would be up to the current owner, how they wanted to play that hand.


> If disassembling far enough to be a kit car required, this is
> acceptable to.

Disassembling a manufactured vehicle will not legally transform it's status into a kit 
car. Chop shops would relish such a concept.

One could ship a vehicle to Europe without "officially" exporting it. Corporate 
executives do it all the time. Even simpler, one could just 
drive it across the border into Canada and ship it from there. No questions asked. 
Then once in Europe, someone could just happen to 
have "made me an offer I couldn't refuse".


> What options Euro customer has to get RAV4 EV at all?

Same as the folks in the rest of the 49 U.S. states.

Fudge it.


Vince
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Lee,
Mostly dead. Ya I like that. After charging and then resting from 11pm to 8am, I'm 
usually at 76v or so. I'll keep an eye on the gassing or would that be an ear;)

thanks,
Steve


In a message dated 11/1/2002 11:55:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > I was under the impression I had to get the batteries to 2.4 v/cell
> > during the bulk charge. Are my batteries just too tired to do this?
> > As a reminder, when I got the Tropica, the voltage across the entire
> > pack was 2.4. Any recommendations?
> 
> In the movie "The Princess Bride", Magic Max the Wizard says the hero is
> only "mostly dead". This is in contrast to "all dead", in which case all
> you can do is go thru his pockets for loose change, etc.
> 
> Well, your batteries are "mostly dead". They aren't going to behave
> normally after their near-death experience. For one, they probably did
> get sulfated, and now have less capacity, a lower fully-charged voltage,
> and higher gassing rates.
> 
> What can you do? Simply cycling them and keeping a close watch to avoid
> further abuse will help. They will slowly recover, somewhat like an
> accident victim gradually getting his health back after serious
> injuries.
> -- 
> Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - 
> Leonard Cohen
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How about a Miata ?

http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/174.html

They are a lot more "modern" as to the basic mechanicals than a 914, but since they 
have been in production since 1990, a base vehicle 
shouldn't be too pricey. You could have a shop convert one for you.

If you could happen to find one with a bad motor, the reduced price would offset some 
of the cost of conversion.


Vince
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Michael wrote:
Musing aloud (?) here on directions to go in my next EV...
I am looking at Kitcars, and the ones I am interested in are all VW
based.  I know that there are often motor adaptors available  because of
the great number of VW base EVs there are around.  These adaptors are
typically for the Advanced DC motors, or the GE, etc.
I am just starting to really think about building an AC powered EV.
I can't say much about AC vs. DC as I drive only series DC EVs. Off the top the AC system should offer efficient regen. Series DC systems seldom have regen, and when they do its not usually much or very efficient. The value of regen will vary depending on driving style, local roads, and vehicle weight. The low weight will minimize the value of regen in a VW based kit car.

I can say that VW kit cars make GREAT EVs. The light weight makes them quick without alot of power. However, now that EV racing is under NHRA rules I wouldn't count on racing it. Just check out the special requirements for "VW based kit cars".

Neon
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There is no tach in the car.  The speedometer has shifting marks for 1st
geat at 26 MPH and 2nd gear at 52 MPH.  Does anyone have any rough idea how
these points relate to motor RPM and how fast I should drive in 2nd before
shifting to 3rd?
Those numbers should work just fine. Its a little over 5000rpm in first (standard Rabbit 3.45 first and 3.89 ring&pinion). Its something about the same in second (there are more gear options here). Anyway, I highly doubt you could blow a Presto Motor at less than 7000rpm. I forced my Presto to 7000rpm a number of times - its still driving my EV buggy. I've hit 8000rpm in another Presto, but I don't recommend that (though that motor survived just fine). They are tough, but rated to 6000rpm.

Neon
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William wrote:

> I Have been following the RAV4 EV thread with interest, as I am in > Reno only 15 
>miles from Ca. Does anyone know the details of using a > "straw" buyer or similar 
>method to get a rav4 ev outside of Ca.  

The problem with using a "straw" buyer is the double taxation. The Calif purchaser 
would be required to pay the sales tax ( at 8%, about 
$3400 ! ), then you would be required to pay the sales tax again in Nevada.

UGH.


> How would one work around the charger installation issue ( can't be
> harder than installing a dryer), can they be conned to just sell it
> with the vehicle? 

Perhaps. From the Rav4EV FAQ:

"Can I install the home recharging unit myself?"

"It is not recommended. Only a licensed expert in vehicle charging units should 
install the home charging unit."

So, if you said your brother-in-law was a Master Electrician, and  you'd rather avoid 
the expense.... maybe.


> Is it no wonder the "government" really doesn't want us driving EVs 

A recent change in public policy.


Vince
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----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 01, 2002 10:20 PM
Subject: auction


> I found the web site,
> https://www.gsaauctions.gov/index.jsp
> but I didn't find the EV bus your talking about.
> Do you have a more direct address?
>
      Hi All;

    Yeah, Me, too. Gee, what a nice motorhome conversion they COULD make, be
able to plugitin at Campgrounds for the night. Bettya they need new
batteries, though? What used EV doesn't? They were probably beaten to death,
in service. They must be commercial conversions, like the outfit in TN that
duz buses?

    Hope a Lister can find room in his heart and yard for one<g>!Who ELSE
would want one? They should go cheap?

         Seeya, on the bus?

       Bob
> Daniel J Rivest wrote:
> > Greetings everyone:
> >
> > If anyone is interested in an electric bus the GSA or General Services
> > Administration has 3 for sale.  These are large buses. They also have a
> > passenger van.  If you go to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and click on
> > automobiles in CA you will find the electric vehicles.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Daniel
> > Beyond Oil
> >
> >
>
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   Hi All;

     I just HAD to dig this little verse out of a Trolley car book ;Season's
greetings!

            The Broomstick Train, or the return of the witches

     They came, of course, at their master's call,

     The witches, the broomsticks, the cats, and all;

     He led the hags to a railway train

     The horses were trying to drag in vein.

     ' Now ,then," says he, " you've had your fun,

     And here are the cars you've got to run,

     The driver may just unhitch his team,

     We don't want horses, we don't want steam;

     You mayt keep you're old black cats to hug,

     But the loaded train you've got to lug".


     Sibce then on many a car you'll see

     A broomstick plain as plain can be;

     On every stick theres a witch astride-

     The string you see to her leg is tied.

     She will do mischief if she can,

    But the string is held by a careful man,

    And whenever the evil- minded witch,

    Would cut some caper, he gives a twitch.

    As for the hag, you can't see her,

    But hark! You can hear her black cat's purr.

    And now and then, as a car goes by,

    You may catch a gleam from her wicked eye.

    Often you've looked at on a rushing train,

    But just what moved it was not so plain.

    It couldn't be those wires above,

    For they could neither pull nor shove;

    Where was the motor that made it go?

    You couldn't guess, BUT NOW YOU KNOW!


   Ok a bit dated, but evokes the "Golly Gee! " Stage of electric
transportation, that John Wayland continues today. I can imagine what Oliver
Wendall Holmes would have written up after a ride in Blue Meanie. Below is
his comments on trolley cars in Boston, where they still go today. Btw there
is a Lite rail line across the Hudson in NJ, hoboken, within the shadow of
the Empire State building, or WTC had it lived that long. Trolleys are
coming back, like electric cars.

    Look Here! There are crowds of people whirled through our streets on
these new fashoned cars, with their witch broomsticks overhead-if they don't
come from Salem they ought to! and not more than one in a dozen of these
fish eyed bipeds thinks or cares a nickel's worth about the miracle which is
wrought for their convenience. We ought to go down on our knees when one of
these mighty caravans ,car after car, spins by us, under it's mystic impulse
which seems to know not whether it's train is loaded or empty.

    I like it, pretty heady stuff. Hope you get a grin from it ,too.

     Seeya

     Bob






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http://www.electroauto.com/
Check this out.  These guys are really friendly and helpful.  You can have a
brand new conversion for 8900, a clutch, a used 914 which can be had for 1
to 3 thousand and 45 hundred for the installation done professionally.  This
is well under 20k and it can have a peppier controller put in for some real
tire screeching performance.  I have a friend that is loosing his EV1
interested in one.  Good luck Lawrence Rhodes....This one uses 20 6v
batteries and has very good range.  Lawrence Rhodes....
> I am very new EV's but have been fascinated by them.
> Recently I have played with charging batteries from a
> generator coupled to a stationary bike.
> I have driven couple of EV's in the past including
> Corbin Sparrow, RAV4 EV and Porsche 914 EV.
>
> Rather than starting to build from a kit,
> I want to start by buying a converted EV.
> I live in the Silicon Valley and commute alone
> 30miles each way (almost flat) with
> good possibility of charging at work and home.
> This means I need minimum of 45 miles of range.
> I would like it to be minimum of two seats
> and prefer a convertible. Besides being a commute vehicle
> I would like it to be fun(peppy) to drive too.
>
> After looking at several web sites,
> I am leaning towards a Porsche 914 EV.
> Here are some stats:
> 120V (15, 8V Golf Cart almost dead batteries), 9" ADC, C1221, E-meter etc.
>
> Here are my questions to the experts on the list:
> (1) Is this (914) the right choice given my requirements?
> (2) What things to look for when I go down to take a test drive?
> (3) How do I gauge the quality of conversion?
> (4) How to estimate the range with new batteries ?
> (5)   Pointers on how much to pay would also be useful.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> == Sudhir ==
>
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I made it to Voltageville (Vacaville) this afternoon. 
All is well. My EV is lapping up 6kw charging from one 
of the many public AVCONs in this city.

I have some interesting charging data when using the 
PFC-50 and NG5 in parallel (fast) and using the 
PFC-50 by itself off an AVCON (slick).

While I have driven to Sacramento using the public
charging infrastructure before (5 times), it is different
this time. I have a different brand of batteries in my
pack (US145s), different tires, a new charger (PFC-50),
and the charging locations have changed.

I should be at the Sacramento raceway tomorrow, 
see you there.

 -Bruce :-zzz

=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the EV ascci art above)
=====

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