EV Digest 2400
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Charger help.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Evercel MB80 price
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Charger help.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) FW: (CA) EV Parking law sticker contest!
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Charger help.
by Lin Tse Hsu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Advice on buying a used EV.
by "Kulkarni, Sudhir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Flooded 6v to NiZn 12v comparison (was: Evercel group buy?)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Evercel MB80 price
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Flooded 6v to NiZn 12v comparison (was: Evercel group buy?)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charger help.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Measuring voltage during charging
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Jameco voltage monitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Obtaining a Toyota RAV4 EV outside Ca.
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) More Wayland Tales, More Fall EV Fun!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Tom,
As Bruce mentioned, a K&W BC-20 might work for you, although you
will need a booster (K&W made those too, and I think KTA still
sells them) to work with your 144V pack. Note though that K&Ws
are very hard on the AC-side equipment (including the booster),
although if you keep it turned down, things will last. I have
one of these chargers (no booster) that I used on my 96V pack for
several years, and it is still in good condition. A couple of
years ago, it blew the bridge rectifier, which K&W promptly fixed
(along with putting some additional coating on the circuit board
to help stability in high humidity levels). When the rectifier
blew, I decided to put my Zivan K2 charger permanently in its
place. I verified that the K&W worked when it was returned, but
it has been unused since. I might be talked into selling it to
you for $100-200. That would be a down-payment on a Rudman
PFC-20, although I'm not certain if a PFC-20 is significantly
larger than a K&W (have to check out the manzanita-micro site).
I have another slot in the car that would just love to have a
PFC-20 ensconced, but it's barely large enough for the K&W!
>From experience and being a worry-wort, I like having the backup
of a second charger. While I could use the variac if the Zivan
blew, it would be quite painful.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Tom Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:33 PM
Subject: Charger help.
> Howdy All:
>
> I am having more grief than I can afford. I have a 'Rusco'
battery charger;
> I got it about a year and a half ago. I have been fortunate
enough to use it
> twice to recharge my 144v pack. The rest of the time it has
been in transit
> to and from Rusco because it would not work for me. I am not
saying that it
> was bad from the start but the shape it is in now makes it a
non-issue. The
> charger got mysteriously trashed (big time) in the shipping to
Russ this
> last time and it is obviously only junk now. That is a 1000
bucks down the
> drain for 2 charges. We are not made of money and cannot afford
to spend
> that kind of money for a zero return.
> I don't want to scrap my truck after all the work that has gone
into
> building it, but if I can't solve my charger needs... I am
using a bad boy
> to keep the pack up just enough not to freeze.
>
> The point is I need a charger that will work and keep working
at a cost that
> is affordable to someone with no money to throw away. I don't
care about the
> looks only the functionality.
>
> Any help will be truly appreciated.
> Thanks
> Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cold weather doesn't seem to effect range. They are more energy dense.
Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: Evercel MB80 price
> Phil Bardsley wrote:
> > I called the Evercel office in MA a couple days ago and was quoted a
> > price for the MB80 of $240 each for quantities of 20 or more. They
> > wouldn't tell me when the batteries would be available.
>
> I'm relatively close to their office and MIGHT be interested in an 'East
> Coast Buy' IF these batteries would actually do me any good.
>
> Just looking at the numbers, a set of 22 of the MB80's would fit right
> into my battery boxes for a total of 800 pounds (vs 1400 pounds for the
> floodeds). From what Rich said the nominal 264 volt pack would run more
> like 240 volts under load. Generously assuming the full 64 Ahrs at this
> voltage, and at a typical (for me) 350 Whr/mile, that gives a max range
> of 43 miles, and less if stopping at 80% DOD, allowing for winter
> driving etc. So pretty much the same as my floodeds.
>
> So what's the big advantage to the Evercells? What am I missing? Where
> is my 100 mile range? Or would I need to cram in the same *weight* (1400
> pounds) of Evercells as PbAs to get the 100 miles?
>
> And for all that, if I read it right the Evercels are good for 500
> cycles, or maybe two years, so not that much different than floodeds. A
> $20,000 Evercell battery pack every couple of years makes NiCads look
cheap.
>
> Also, although not deemed to be hazardous by the EPA, what exactly does
> one do with 22 dead Evercel batteries? Scrap yards are happy to take
> (and even pay a little) for my PbA's.
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes 144v maximum. I remember it from a KTA diagram. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Charger help.
> Should verify that the K&W will do a 144V pack with a booster (I
> seem to have some recollection that it was 120V, but could
> definitely be wrong).
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 11:33 PM
> Subject: Charger help.
>
>
> > Howdy All:
> >
> > I am having more grief than I can afford. I have a 'Rusco'
> battery charger;
> > I got it about a year and a half ago. I have been fortunate
> enough to use it
> > twice to recharge my 144v pack. The rest of the time it has
> been in transit
> > to and from Rusco because it would not work for me. I am not
> saying that it
> > was bad from the start but the shape it is in now makes it a
> non-issue. The
> > charger got mysteriously trashed (big time) in the shipping to
> Russ this
> > last time and it is obviously only junk now. That is a 1000
> bucks down the
> > drain for 2 charges. We are not made of money and cannot afford
> to spend
> > that kind of money for a zero return.
> > I don't want to scrap my truck after all the work that has gone
> into
> > building it, but if I can't solve my charger needs... I am
> using a bad boy
> > to keep the pack up just enough not to freeze.
> >
> > The point is I need a charger that will work and keep working
> at a cost that
> > is affordable to someone with no money to throw away. I don't
> care about the
> > looks only the functionality.
> >
> > Any help will be truly appreciated.
> > Thanks
> > Tom
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
This came through the production EV lists, though I don't see any reason
why it shouldn't go to this list, as well. I'm sure all designs are
welcome.
Dean
-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Hanssen [mailto:greg@;zefiro.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 5:30 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'RAV4 EV Group'; 'EV1 Club'
Subject: [EV1-CLUB] EV Parking law sticker contest!
Attention EV drivers!
As you may have heard, AB1314 making it illegal for non-EVs to block
EV
charging spaces
in California has been signed by Governor Davis. While the text of the
law
says enforcement
begins Jan 1st, it likely won't start until mid next year due to
logistics.
The law calls for a 2x2 inch window sticker to be made available to
EV
drivers through DMV
HQ in Sacramento (mail in) or at EV dealerships for new customers.
There
will be a small fee
for the stickers, likely under $10. The sticker can go inside the rear
window behind the driver or
in the edge of the drivers side windshield. The law also provides for
bumper stickers, but initially
the stickers will be made for inside use only (unless you can figure out
a
way to get it on the
bumper!) Technically any vehicle blocking a charger without a sticker
starting mid next year
could be ticketed $100 but I doubt EVs would be ticketed... AB1314 is
more
of a tool to allow
parking enforcement to ticket non-EVs blocking appropriately marked
public
EV chargers statewide.
We have a short period of time to contribute ideas for the design
of
this new sticker!
The sticker will be an inside window transparent, with 1 or 2
colors. On the sticker there will
be a space for a serial number, but other than that we have a lot of
flexibility to contribute to
the design. Every EV driver interested in the final look of this new
sticker is encouraged to
contribute ideas or possible designs. Early next week I will make some
of
DMVs suggestions
available for everyone to see.
We are holding a contest starting now for all interested EV drivers
to
contribute design
ideas for the sticker. Please e-mail your design entries to me at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] .jpg or
.gif files preferable, please less than 200kbytes (remember this is only
a
2x2 inch sticker).
Remember, clear background and no more than 2 colors for the design.
All entries must be received by Tuesday the 12th of November. The
entries
will be posted
online and people can vote for the best entry on Wednesday and Thursday
the
13th and 14th.
The winner will be selected Friday morning the 15th and will win an
exciting PEVDC T-shirt
(blue or green)... oh boy!
I'm sending this out to the EV1, RAV and Th!nk lists, if anyone has
access to other groups
who might be interested in participating in this design for California,
please feel free to forward
this e-mail. Unfortunately I will be out of town until Monday night, so
forgive me if I don't
respond to e-mail Fri-Mon. I will clear up any unresolved issues early
next week when I get
back.
Thanks!
Greg Hanssen, co-chairman Production EV Drivers Coalition
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck,
The batteries are a bit out of balance. I don't have my notes here so I can't tell you
the amounts. According to your numbers, if I'm above 84.6v I've started gassing so I
guess hearing bubbling at 86.6 isn't unreasonable.
thanks,
Steve
In a message dated 10/31/2002 9:47:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Chuck Hursch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Steve,
>
>It's conceivable that you have an imbalanced battery pack, and
>you are hearing SOME of the batteries/cells gassing. Have you
>done a walkabout of the pack with your voltage meters? Gassing
>in a lead-acid cell begins once the cell is above 2.35V
>(temperature does matter), so 7.05V for a 6V battery and 14.10V
>for a 12V battery.
>
>Chuck Hursch
>Larkspur, CA
>www.geocities.com/nbeaa
>http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 8:52 PM
>Subject: Re: Measuring voltage during charging
>
>
>> Chuck,
>> Thanks for the reply. My concern is that I'm not sure what the
>charging
>> voltage. When I'm at what I believe to be 87 volts, I hear some
>pretty
>> serious bubbling going on. I'm new to this but I would have
>expected less
>> bubbling at that voltage.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> In a message dated 10/29/2002 6:26:06 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>
>>
>> >
>> > My cheapo $7 Cen-Tech digital voltmeter produces funky DC
>voltage
>> > readings when the CanPulse unit is pulsing my pack (96V).
>The
>> > Chicago Scientific $20 meter (no true-RMS claim) doesn't seem
>to
>> > have a problem with it. My Radio Shack $80 true-RMS meter I
>> > don't recall whether I've tried it with the CanPulse going.
>> >
>> > Chuck Hursch
>> > Larkspur, CA
>> > www.geocities.com/nbeaa
>> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> When I'm at what I believe to be 87 volts, I hear some pretty
>> serious bubbling going on. I'm new to this but I would have
>> expected less bubbling at that voltage.
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> It's conceivable that you have an imbalanced battery pack, and
> you are hearing SOME of the batteries/cells gassing... Gassing
> in a lead-acid cell begins once the cell is above 2.35V
> (temperature does matter), so 7.05V for a 6V battery and 14.10V
> for a 12V battery.
That's a good thing to check.
Also, the gassing threshold drops as the batteries age. Brand new, the
threshold is over 2.37v, but old flooded batteries can start gassing as
low as 2.25v/cell.
Current is another factor. The current while the batteries are gassing
should be fairly low -- less than 4% of the rated amphour capacity for a
flooded battery. For sealed batteries, the current should be much lower,
or the battery will vent in an hour or less.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Tom Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
...
>last time and it is obviously only junk now. That is
a 1000 bucks
>down the
>drain for 2 charges. We are not made of money and
cannot afford to
>spend
>that kind of money for a zero return.
>I don't want to scrap my truck after all the work
that has gone into
>building it, but if I can't solve my charger needs...
I am using a
>bad boy
>to keep the pack up just enough not to freeze.
>
>The point is I need a charger that will work and keep
working at a
>cost that
>is affordable to someone with no money to throw away.
I don't care
>about the
>looks only the functionality.
Hi Tom. I clearly remember the last time that there
was trouble with
your charger, and you went for the "whole enchilada"
solution. The
problem with this kind of solution is that when it
fails, it fails in
a spectacular and complete way.
Perhaps you are ready to work on some baby steps.
Less likely to trip
and fall flat on your face, with the resultant fussing
and whining.
The "bad boy" charger is a good idea. The main
problem is that it is
slightly unsafe, due to lack of isolation. This needs
to be fixed
first. Fortunately, fixing it is inexpensive. Get
rid of pack faults
and ground the chassis. Cover exposed wiring.
Everybody thinks that
it can't happen to them. Don't live your life by this
falsehood.
Take pride in your ability to anticipate hazards and
prevent them.
This is not just for looks, it is also for
functionality. The next
step is to put in a gfi. A gfi outlet is good enough.
They are
inexpensive, and easy to install, and you don't want
to end up
dangling helplessly on the end of a live wire wishing
you had done
something about it earlier.
After the important safety steps have been carried
out, little
annoyances about the bad boy will show themselves.
Bad boys tend
to draw excessive amounts of current from outlets, and
they can
cause breakers to trip. These trips are necessary to
protect the
house wiring, so don't defeat the breaker, even if it
seems easier
in the short run. Put in a current limiting device.
Some people
favor a resistor (could be a bunch of extension cords
plugged into
each other), others an inductor (could help power
factor also),
other a bucking transformer. The latter is an elegant
solution,
and it is easier and less expensive than one would
figure at first
glance, especially if a junk auto battery charger is
used. The
voltage needs only be dropped at the beginning of the
charging
period.
At the end of the charge period, especially with a
144V pack, the
bad boy may not deliver enough voltage to finish the
job. This can
be addressed by shunting the resistive element, but
that may still
not be enough. If more voltage is required to bring
the pack up
to finishing voltage, a boost transformer may be
employed. Note
that the aforementioned buck transformer may be reused
for this
task. It becomes even simpler if a DPDT relay is
available to
reverse the transformer polarity.
All these switches and relays soon become tiresome to
use, and it
is possible that one could leave the charger plugged
in too long,
cooking the batteries. This would put a precious pack
at risk for the
false economy of using a cheap bad boy. This will
eventually happen
if you continue in this way. This is where a timer
comes in very
useful. Set the timer for the maximum charge time.
Also, automatic
control of the switches and relays for the voltage is
very convenient.
At about this time, things are complex enough so that
it is easy to
make mistakes. A simple microcontroller may be used
to control all
the switches and relays so that the batteries can be
charged without
intervention.
Each of these stepwise enhancements is simple in and
of itself, and
thus represent baby steps for building up the bad boy.
Each of the
enhancements is nearly self-contained, and
instructions can be found
for specific examples on the Internet. For example, a
poor-man's
microcontroller may be made from an obsolete Nintendo
Gameboy after
browsing instructions on the Gameboy web-ring.
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
HotJobs - Search new jobs daily now
http://hotjobs.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
If I have a US2200 the current should be 9amps or less during gasing. If I'm bringing
them up to 87 volts during that bulk charge, I'm gassing at 12amps for a short time.
Is this a problem?
thanks,
Steve
In a message dated 11/1/2002 1:32:30 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lee Hart
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> When I'm at what I believe to be 87 volts, I hear some pretty
>>> serious bubbling going on. I'm new to this but I would have
>>> expected less bubbling at that voltage.
>
>Chuck Hursch wrote:
>> It's conceivable that you have an imbalanced battery pack, and
>> you are hearing SOME of the batteries/cells gassing... Gassing
>> in a lead-acid cell begins once the cell is above 2.35V
>> (temperature does matter), so 7.05V for a 6V battery and 14.10V
>> for a 12V battery.
>
>That's a good thing to check.
>
>Also, the gassing threshold drops as the batteries age. Brand new, the
>threshold is over 2.37v, but old flooded batteries can start gassing as
>low as 2.25v/cell.
>
>Current is another factor. The current while the batteries are gassing
>should be fairly low -- less than 4% of the rated amphour capacity for a
>flooded battery. For sealed batteries, the current should be much lower,
>or the battery will vent in an hour or less.
>--
>Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
>Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am very new EV's but have been fascinated by them.
Recently I have played with charging batteries from a
generator coupled to a stationary bike.
I have driven couple of EV's in the past including
Corbin Sparrow, RAV4 EV and Porsche 914 EV.
Rather than starting to build from a kit,
I want to start by buying a converted EV.
I live in the Silicon Valley and commute alone
30miles each way (almost flat) with
good possibility of charging at work and home.
This means I need minimum of 45 miles of range.
I would like it to be minimum of two seats
and prefer a convertible. Besides being a commute vehicle
I would like it to be fun(peppy) to drive too.
After looking at several web sites,
I am leaning towards a Porsche 914 EV.
Here are some stats:
120V (15, 8V Golf Cart almost dead batteries), 9" ADC, C1221, E-meter etc.
Here are my questions to the experts on the list:
(1) Is this (914) the right choice given my requirements?
(2) What things to look for when I go down to take a test drive?
(3) How do I gauge the quality of conversion?
(4) How to estimate the range with new batteries ?
(5) Pointers on how much to pay would also be useful.
Thanks in advance,
== Sudhir ==
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
Trojan T-145 stats:
RC-25 = 530min C/20 = 244ah 6v 10-3/8"x7-1/8"x11-5/8" 72.0lb
C/2 = 158ah
Evercel MB80-12-8 stats:
RC-25 = ?min C/1(?) = 64ah 12v 10-1/4"x5-7/8"x7-7/8" 36.4lb
So, for every two batteries (2x6v series, 2x12v parallel) you have:
6v C/2 = 158ah 12v 144lb
12v C/2 = 128ah 12v 73lb
Other evercel's are longer: MB100-12-8
C/1(?) - 85ah 12v 12"x6-3/4"x8-7/8" 47.4lb
x2 = 12v C/2 = 170ah 12v 95lb
(just 1-5/8" longer, but narrower and lower than flooded)
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:billglic@;juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Evercel group buy?
Does Evercell make large 6 volt NiZn in amphr capacity near equivalent to
Trojan T145s ?
Do they require individual chargers or can you recharge with a single
large charger as used on lead acid packs ?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Jim Coate wrote:
> Generously assuming the full 64 Ahrs at this
> voltage, and at a typical (for me) 350 Whr/mile, that gives a max range
> of 43 miles, and less if stopping at 80% DOD, allowing for winter
> driving etc. So pretty much the same as my floodeds.
Jim, that's one of the points of the whole Evercell/NiCad/NiMH scene, is that with this
type of battery chemistry, as opposed to lead acid, you 'do' get the rated amp hours.
Therefore, you can't compare a lead acid pack rated at, say 65 ahr like the popular
Optima
(which I still love) to a 65 ahr pack of Evercells, like the nearly identical rated 64
ahr
MB80. In an EV of 144V-156V range, the Optimas (or any other lead acid battery, for
that
matter) with that 65 ahr rating is really more like a 25 ahr 'EV' rating, but the
Evercells, at least in Sheer's car, not only give their rated ahrs, they have given
substantially more. So to compare two packs, a 65 ahr pack of Optimas VS a 64 ahr pack
of
Evercells, you are really saying one 'delivers' 25 ahrs and the other one 'delivers' 64
ahr. Of course, this info is based on what the most visible EV with a pack of
Evercells,
Sheer's Honda, has and is doing.
> So what's the big advantage to the Evercells? What am I missing?
There are huge advantages over a regular lead acid pack....huge! You are missing quite
a
bit, so let's keep talking. Referring to the above, at first look, it seems the
Evercells
are a bit more than twice the 'deliverable power' as a similarly rated lead acid
battery,
but my ahr comparison didn't address the weight difference, so when that's factored in,
the Evercells look even better and actually come out about three times the capacity!
For
example, 13 Optimas weigh 585 lbs. and 'deliver' 25 ahrs. (more ahrs if cruising
current
draws are typically in the 20-25 amp range due to a high voltage string at 300+V), but
just 468 lbs. of Evercells 'deliver' 64 ahrs! The Evercells are 7.31 lbs. per
'delivered'
ahr, the Optimas are 23.4 lbs., per 'delivered' ahr....you can see, that this is that 3
times the range power I and others are talking about! Keep in mind, I do not run with
these batteries (yet), but I have spent some time with Sheer and his car, and he backs
this up, and I have seen first hand what his car can do with just 800 lbs. of the
Evercells....it's pretty impressive!
Consider the cold weather performance of the Evercells (they laugh at cold weather when
lead acid is shaking, quivering, and down to half their 'delivered' ahs), and because
they
continue to deliver their full capacity, in c-cold temps, they are suddenly 6 times the
range power of lead! Sheer has already proved this, and ran, I think, 112 miles on just
800 lbs. of Evercells in last winter's cold temps.
>Where is my 100 mile range? Or would I need to cram in the same *weight* (1400
>pounds) of Evercells as PbAs to get the 100 miles?
Of course, range is a factor of not only battery pack capacity, but other things such
as
the vehicle's frontal area, its curb weight, its rolling resistance (this includes
tires,
wheel bearings, gear drag, etc.), and the efficiency of the power train (AC VS DC,
controller design, etc.). It's really not a fair comparison in the first place, between
Sheer's 100+ mile range-800 lbs. of Evercells in his fairly aero Honda sedan, his
fairly
light weight Honda sedan, his Honda sedan with quality wheel bearings and a low loss
transaxle assembly up front, and his Honda with a high efficiency AC drive train that
includes range extending regen...to your 'truck'....a Chevy S10 with a much larger
frontal
area, a much higher curb weight, the aerodynamics of a brick, and rolling resistance
far
higher with its 'truck' tires, and 'truck' drive train losses with its spinning
driveshaft, heavy duty but not-so-free-spinning wheel bearings, and that big 'ol rear
differential with its high frictional losses.
With the above said though, you can still get that 100 mile range in your S10 truck,
but
it will take more than 800 lbs. of Evercells to do it, perhaps 1000 lbs. of them? Look
at
it this way, that's still a lot less weight in batteries for what looks like two and a
half times the range you currently get.
Here's another way to look at things. Dick Finley and I designed and built Red Beastie
purely as a range-oriented EV. Yes, we could have selected a more aero car type
platform
with a far lower beginning curb weight and much lower losses, but I consider it
dangerous
to overload a unibody type of smaller car with 1200 +lbs. of batteries, let alone
anything
over a ton of them. We wisely chose a sturdy import pickup, a '95 Toyota Xtracab, that
is
made to haul heavy loads. We made it have an even higher load rating by employing
airbags
in the rear and by changing the tires to 8 ply 'truck rated' radials with a 65 psi
design.
These high pressure tires, rated at 1900 lbs. load per tire, were also pretty narrow at
185 X 14, so in their own right, they were LRR compared to the normal 215 X 14, 35 psi
type of truck tires. Anyway, the point is, we used a donor vehicle that could safely
handle the planned pack of a whopping 2500 lbs. of lead....that's 40, golf car
batteries!
With 2500 lbs. of lead acid batteries, the truck had a real world, been there, done
that,
120 mile range at 60 mph. It had this kind of range over varied terrain, but only in
warmer weather, say 70-80 degrees where lead acid performs well. It also had that kind
of
range, by pulling the pack down to what I consider a 100% discharge.
Now, consider this same truck, with half that weight in Evercells...half the weight!
This
would be a much better vehicle simply from the standpoint of lowering the total curb
weight from as super porky 5,300 lbs., to about 4000 lbs.. Additionally, all of the
batteries could fit under the bed and under the hood, so it would now have a fully
usable
bed again! Handling would be dramatically improved, and acceleration would once again,
be... well, acceleration.
In my opinion, Red Beastie with 1400 lbs. of Evercells, would probably do 150 miles per
charge, so you could even drop the battery amount to something more like 1000-1200
lbs. to
get a 100 mile range. Of course, the cool thing is that this truck would have this
kind of
range even at 20 degrees!
> And for all that, if I read it right the Evercels are good for 500
> cycles, or maybe two years, so not that much different than floodeds.
Oh oh, big correction needed here. Flooded batteries will not come close to giving 500
cycles at real heavy discharges, it's more like 200-300 cycles if you uses them hard.
The
Evercells on the other hand, are rated at 500-600 cycles at heavy discharges. If you
have
a vehicle that has 100+ miles of range per cycle, the Evercells then last for
50,000-60,000 miles! When
was the last time you ever saw a pack of flooded batteries do that?
Again, a disclaimer...I don't actually use Evercells (yet) and not even Sheer can back
up
the cycle life claim (yet), so all of this is just opinions based on what we are
seeing so
far. But, keep in mind, that so far, for me that is, the Evercell is the first battery
that actually exceeds its manufacturers rating when it comes to 'delivered ahrs' in EV
use. Sheer's batteries have an 87 ahr one hour rating, but he's pulled, if I recall
correctly, more than 100 ahrs from them as used in his road-going EV!
> A $20,000 Evercell battery pack every couple of years makes NiCads look cheap.
Correction.....an 800 lb. pack like Sheer's, costs approx. $5500 and it gives him an
easy
100+ mile range, so at the low end of the cycle life claim, say 500 cycles, that's
50,000
miles for $5500 ..... a long ways from "$20,000 Evercell battery pack every couple of
years". Consider this though, that with 100+ mile range per charge capacity, most every
day type of driving, say,
30-40 miles per day, will be a far lower than 100% discharge, so that cycle life will
increase in numbers, maybe as high as 1000 cycles?
The only thing that's keeping me from switching to Evercells in Blue Meanie, is that
I'm a
HP, torque, and tire smoke junkie, and though my Optimas are not any better than any
other
lead acid batteries (one of the worst battery chemistry types for for range-oriented
driving) for range distance type driving, they and Hawkers are some of the best at
super
high current discharges....my Optimas have consistently laughed at 1000-1200 amps
current
draws and rudely fast charging regimes, for 5 years now! In my relatively low voltage
EV
(156V), Evercells would not be able to deliver this same level of high current at low
voltage sag...not even close. I am, however, still thinking of a way to use them in
this,
my favorite EV, by making up a hybrid battery pack. I could use the 117 lb. weight
savings from using a pack of 13, 36 lb. Evercells, by augmenting them with a 143 lb.
booster pack of 13 of the EV racing style SVR batteries that could be automatically
placed
in parallel at high current 'Wayland moments'. The SVR's can easily kick out 900 amps
for
short bursts of power, and when the safe limit of 300 amps from the Evercell pack is
added, that's the 1200 amp syringe in my arm I need! In theory, the small ahrs added
from
the SVR pack with the 60-65 ahrs from the Evercell pack, would make for a real world,
cold
weather 60-70 mile range in my now 25 mile range (at warm weather operation, 15 miles
or
so in cold weather) EV.
Sheer, Rudman...corrections on any misinformation given by me are welcome.
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Bill,
>
> Trojan T-145 stats:
> RC-25 = 530min C/20 = 244ah 6v 10-3/8"x7-1/8"x11-5/8" 72.0lb
> C/2 = 158ah
>
> Evercel MB80-12-8 stats:
> RC-25 = ?min C/1(?) = 64ah 12v 10-1/4"x5-7/8"x7-7/8" 36.4lb
>
> So, for every two batteries (2x6v series, 2x12v parallel) you have:
> 6v C/2 = 158ah 12v 144lb
> 12v C/2 = 128ah 12v 73lb
>
Note that 144 lbs. of golf car lead acid batteries gives a 'useable' 158 ahrs, while
half
that weight in Evercells gives 128 ahrs. At the C/1 rate, which the golf car battery
manufacturers don't even want to talk about, I bet that half the weight in Evercells
matches or exceeds the ahrs of the lead acid batteries. Consider the same comparison at
freezing or below outside temperatures, and the Evercells will simply blow away the
golf
car lead acid batteries. Also keep in mind, that it is basically impossible to fit
enough
6V golf car batteries in a small car to get up to higher voltages, but this is easily
done
with the light weight 12V Evercell modules.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lin Tse Hsu wrote:
>
Tom Martin wrote:
> Russco charger... wrecked in shipping... it is obviously only junk
> now... I don't care about the looks only the functionality.
Well, maybe it isn't really junk.
I don't remember what the problem was with your Russco charger. Could
you refresh our memory? What was wrong with it?
And, what exactly is wrong with it now, after the shipping damage? The
case might get bent, but is should be pretty hard to wreck some of the
heavier components inside. Maybe you can put the "guts" in a new case,
replace a few damaged parts (using your insurance money), and have it
working again.
PS -- does your homeowners insurance cover it?
Second possibility. Use the Russco for parts. There's bound to be cords,
connectors, fuses, GFCI, a big bridge rectifier, etc. that will have
survived. Use them to assemble a "bad boy" or other charger you like.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Lee,
>
> If I have a US2200 the current should be 9amps or less during gasing.
> If I'm bringing them up to 87 volts during that bulk charge, I'm
> gassing at 12amps for a short time. Is this a problem?
That's really too high. In the short run, it's going to make the
batteries bubble vigorously, making a mess on the tops of the batteries,
and using up lots of water. In the long run, it's likely to cause
corroded terminals, loose connections, and shorter battery life from
overcharging.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
I was under the impression I had to get the batteries to 2.4 v/cell during the bulk
charge. Are my batteries just too tired to do this? As a reminder, when I got the
Tropica, the voltage across the entire pack was 2.4. Any recommendations?
thanks,
steve
In a message dated 11/1/2002 2:58:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lee Hart
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>> Lee,
>>
>> If I have a US2200 the current should be 9amps or less during gasing.
>> If I'm bringing them up to 87 volts during that bulk charge, I'm
>> gassing at 12amps for a short time. Is this a problem?
>
>That's really too high. In the short run, it's going to make the
>batteries bubble vigorously, making a mess on the tops of the batteries,
>and using up lots of water. In the long run, it's likely to cause
>corroded terminals, loose connections, and shorter battery life from
>overcharging.
>--
>Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
>Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I mentioned the Jameco <http://www.jameco.com> part# 181833 Voltage
Monitor kit ($8.95 each) last week. I've seen them in the catalog for
years, but hadn't actually tried one. After I mentioned it in a post
last week, I decided to get one to try. It arrived yesterday. My initial
reaction is to avoid using them for battery monitoring.
It is an *extreme* minimalist kit. Cheapest possible parts, and no parts
that aren't absolutely necessary to barely work. Single-sided PC board
with no silk-screened identification for where the parts go.
Instructions are a poorly-printed single sheet, and assume you have a
lot of knowledge and experience in electronics assembly. They assume you
know how to read resistor color codes, and how to put diodes, LEDs, and
ICs on a PC board with the correct polarity.
The circuit is very crude. It uses two LM324 quad op-amps as comparators
(the 8th is unused). The voltage reference is two forward-biased 1N4148
diodes. The LEDs light "christmas tree" fashion; first 1, then 2, then
3, etc. until all 7 are lit at max voltage. Each diode draws about 20ma,
so the whole thing draws about 150ma at 13.5v (which would quickly run
down a 12v battery). There is no reverse polarity protection (it would
die). There are no capacitors at all; not even a bypass capacitor for
the IC's power supply.
As usual, you get what you pay for. I can see a dozen improvements by
re-arranging the same basic parts, and adding just a few cents more.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks , I Have been following the RAV4 EV thread with interest, as I
am in Reno
only 15 miles from Ca. Does anyone know the details of using a "straw"
buyer or similar method to get a rav4 ev outside of Ca. Since the
nearest dealer is only about 100 miles in the event of a breakdown I
would of course have to trailer it, and to avoid any fraud problems I
would have to forgo the CARB rebate.
How would one work around the charger installation issue ( can't be
harder than installing a dryer), can they be conned to just sell it with
the vehicle? Avoiding the hassles I have heard about? Or has anyone
heard about any used rav4 ev s for sale?
I currently have put 2500 miles on a 99 Coval truck 192volt , my 3rd
ev. and LOVIN' it. Just the thought of opting out of the whole system
and that obligatory stop at the gas station is a strong motivator. Is it
no wonder the "government" really doesn't want us driving EVs
Bill Brinsmead, UNR Physics Dept.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
You know, having a few electric scooters around here sure comes in handy!
I've been on a roll lately, to get things spiffed up, organized, and in top
condition...everything from long put off home improvement projects, to cleaning up and
reorganizing my shop, to fun EV stuff. After he had vaporized Blue Meanie's main power
fuse, Geoff Shepherd had written how I had made the short run on one of my trusty
scooters
from my house to where he and my stranded EV were. It was simply easier, faster, and
quite frankly, more fun to take my electric scooter to get to Geoff and my EV, than
taking
a car.
The one I get the most use out of, and the one I used on the 'stranded Geoff/Blue
Meanie'
occasion, was my dead stock Currie 24V machine with its efficient BDC drive system.
What a
nice scooter! It does between 17-21 mph depending on the road surface, temperature, and
wind, and has never run low on power, even after 6 or 7 miles of scooting.
I have found that my electric scooters have been great ice breakers for those new to
EVs.
Last week, before our current c-cold weather moved in, in the early evening hours, my
wife
and I met a new neighbor couple who were walking past our home with their
Australian-dingo dog (very cool, spotted white and brown feller). One thing led to
another, and with the second driveway's gate swung open and the backyard shop's door
raised to reveal my EVs, he couldn't resist asking about my nifty, cherry Datsuns...he
was
blown away when he learned they were electric powered! This led to the scooter thing,
and
before he knew what hit him, the dog's leash was transferred to her and he was off at
17
mph down through the neighborhood. He came back, tears in his eyes (either from joy or
wind effect), hair still blown back, and he had that unmistakable 'EV grin' plastered
on
his face. His wife turned to me and said, "Oh oh, what have you done to him?" Needless
to
say, he was absolutely freaked out over his first electric experience. His scooter run
was
followed by an 'around the loop' run in Blue Meanie....I was later scolded by my wife
for
frying the tires on Glisan St.!
Yesterday, I needed to continue with my 'sprucing up everything' attitude, and I was
determined to get my Ford Aerostar van (the official EV race car towing rig) properly
stickered with current license tags....some may remember my sending Victor off to
central
Oregon to get John Bryan and his EV, in the van with its expired tags. I was having
trouble getting the van to pass its DEQ pollution certification, and besides wanting to
have it properly tagged, I wanted it to run as clean as it could (within reasonable
costs), too. In my younger years, I would have dug into the van myself to get it tuned
up,
but these days, I'd rather pay someone to do this type of greasy, miserable work. I had
been told by the Midas folks, that the van probably had bad catalytic converters....my
van
has not the usual one, but two catalytic converters, and they wanted nearly $800 to
replace both of them...argghh! Though I can afford $800, I can't justify spending that
on
a van worth maybe, $2500, so I wanted to check into my options. Anyway, yesterday, I
took
the van over to a local gas station that seems to be one of a dying breed, that is,
they
actually have a service shop and do work on cars! I had noticed they had signs denoting
they were DEQ specialists, so I stopped by to see how badly they might want to gouge
me!
As I stood and waited a bit for someone to notice me, a guy in his forties with a
ponytail and a bit of a middle east look, wearing a shop dude uniform, came over to
speak
with another shop dude, also in a shop uniform...it was apparent to me, that one or
both
of them were hearing impaired as they began to sign with each other. I know a bit of
American Sign myself, and I was picking up on their conversation about getting
customers'
cars serviced in order. The ponytail dude made eye contact with me and motioned with
his
hands that they would be right back with me, pointing to all of the cars that others
were
jockeying about the lot. I think I surprised him when I signed back to him, but it
brought
about an immediate smile to his face. He was polite enough to ask how much sign I knew,
and when I told him my skills were a bit rusty, he slowed down to my level, so we
conversed just fine. The other fellow, Don, was not hearing impaired (though you
couldn't
tell by the way he signed so well), and we struck up a verbal conversation. He too,
was a
bit surprised that I knew sign, and explained to me that the ponytail dude was one of
the
shop's owners. I prepped Don with my "It's a vehicle I hardly ever drive, I've got
other
vehicles I can drive, and I don't want to spend much on it". In his shop uniform with
his
slightly greasy hands, he looked like, well, a typical grease jockey garage dude, but
he
was obviously a pretty sharp guy, as he politely interrupted me and said, "I know
exactly
what you mean...we charge a flat $100 fee to get any vehicle to pass DEQ, no matter how
long we work on it." I was immediately impressed with his attitude, friendliness, and
intelligence that, quite frankly, surprised me. I went on to tell Don that Midas had
told
me that more than likely, I needed to replace $800 worth of catalytics, but he said
he'd
worked on many Aerostars, and that bad cats. weren't usually the case with vans like
mine....whew! He went on to say, "We can get almost anything to pass, but if we can't,
even if we take days of trying, there's zero cost to you. If it does need expensive
parts,
we'll tell you first, and then you can make the decision on how to proceed. As another
part of our service, if you give us the $51 tagging and license fee, we'll even drive
your
vehicle over to the DEQ station, run it through their lineup of cars to get tested,
get it
certified, and return it to you with fresh tags and registration." Man, what a deal
this
was...I didn't even have to take the van over to a testing station, they'd do it all
for
me!
As I was telling Don how I used the van to tow a race car, he instantly wanted to know
what kind of race car I had. When I told him it was an electric quarter mile drag
Datsun,
and that it turned low 13's on street tires, he went nuts....seemed he was a Datsun
fan,
and it also seemed he was fairly educated about EVs, too. This was just the beginning
of
what turned out to be a fun experience.
I showed Don the bank of 17 Optimas in the van and explained to him about dump
charging at
204 volts. We had a brief conversation about 'big amps' as he told me about some of
their
towing equipment's powerful winches...I of course, countered with my 1400 amps from
336V
battery pack in the race car bit...it was fun. We made the deal, and I told him I'd be
right back as I needed to go back to my place (about one mile away) to get one of my
electric scooters to put in the back of the van, so I could leave the van with him and
electric-scoot back home. Don thought that was so cool!
After returning and dropping off the van (with my fingers crossed that Don might
really be
able to get the van to pass without a costly cat. replacement), and giving Don my cell
number I hopped on the Currie and motored off towards my house. L-e-t me tell ya, it
was
c-c-c-c-cold yesterday, with a 39 degree temp but with a 30 mph east wind blowing smack
dap against me all the way home....man, it was cold! Heading due east into the icy
wind,
my blocky frame was not too areo, and the mighty Currie was working hard and the top
speed
was at best, 10 mph. I was nearly home when Bach started to play in my right
pocket....it
was Don calling to tell me that I had forgotten to sign the van's registration papers
so
he could get my tags at the DEQ station, and he wanted me to come back. I told him I
was
almost home, and that I would return in my electric car to take care of it. I made it
home
just fine, though I was red eared and chilled a bit. I guess there are days when
electric
scooting isn't the most desirable way to commute, but it would have been hard to fit
Blue
Meanie in the back of the van!
I put the scooter in the shop and on charge, then got in Blue Meanie and went straight
for
the heater controls and switched on the instant warmth ceramic heater. Even with just
the
one element, the little car heated up quickly and I was beginning to thaw out as I
backed
out the driveway and headed over to the station again. Evidently, Don had spread the
word
I was coming back with one of my EVs, as I was greeted by he, both shop owners, and
another mechanic guy. I was introduced to the other owner, also of middle eastern
decent,
also very bright, the brother of the ponytail dude (I unfortunately, have forgotten his
name) and not hearing impaired. He was 'very' excited to see my EV, and I think all
were a
bit taken back that it was not some sort of beat up, rolling science project and that
instead, it was gleaming and clean in the crisp fall sunlight. When I popped the hood,
they actually gasped at the neatness factor. The ponytail dude very politely, asked if
I
minded if he took some pictures, and I of course, said it was fine to do so. I gave the
nickel tour, and as always, the rear motorized battery tray was a big hit, but opening
the
gas filler door to reveal the 30 amp twist lock recessed power input receptacle 'at a
gas
station' really knocked their socks off! I could see they were twitching in interest,
so
when I offered to take them for a test ride, they jumped at the chance. To show what
kind
of quality folks these owners were, they went and got clean shop rags and cleanser and
wiped their shoes off before entering my car. They were impressed with the electric
heater, but when, with three big guys loaded in the tiny car, I pulled out onto 102nd
Street and ignited the tires with a rear squatting launch, they went nuts! I kept my
foot
in it, grabbed second and the little 1200 pulled hard up to 45 or so (its pretty low
geared), then I banged 3rd and ran it up to 80 mph. Almost in the reverse sequence, I
decelerated hard to make a break in the road to do a U-turn, then headed back sedately
and
a bit more sanely. We missed a light, a perfect opportunity to show off the car's
impressive low end torque, by taking off from rest in 4th gear.
When we returned, as we unloaded, Don, who had stayed at the shop, was still talking
about
the tire spinning launch with all three of us in the car! Things got pretty interesting
when the 'hearing' owner told me he had seen this car last week on the freeway, and
how he
had admired seeing such an immaculate 70's vintage Datsun. He also told me that in
another
country, he had owned several Datsuns himself, and that he was a Datsun fan, big time.
He
went on to entertain me with his impressions of the car as he saw it cruising along the
I-84 freeway, towards the city center, and how he had actually followed me to check it
out
closely...it was big fun for me to hear a stranger's perspective on how he interpreted
what he saw. He said that after he had gotten behind me, he noticed the 'VOLTS' license
plates, then the chromed 'ELECTRIC' Mike Chancey emblem on the left trunk lid area. He
was
thinking the car might be electric powered, but then spoke of how, while we were both
moving along at 65 mph or so, I suddenly accelerated away up to much higher speeds,
and so
he rejected that idea...an EV couldn't move out that quickly and go that fast! (he
really
said these things to me). He said he next thought I might be an employee of Portland's
electric power utility, PGE, hence the vanity 'VOLTS' plate and the 'ELECTRIC' emblem.
Anyway, he was really happy to have seen and ridden in my car!
Having way too much EV fun......
See Ya......John Wayland
PS: The van easily passed its clean air test, and has current tags again.
--- End Message ---
