EV Digest 2440

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Excess Solutions website
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: My First 10000 miles in an EV (long)
        by Brendan Kirby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: My First 10000 miles in an EV (long)
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: MK II regulator troubleshooting needed
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: "Do It Right the First Time"
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Effective Regen or Over-Unity?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Mitchell Oates
        by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Greetings
        by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) 13 Optima YT's for sale - $1000
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'
        by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Greetings
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Scooter EV
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: Greetings
        by "tts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Charger for 144 V system
        by "Johanna and Stan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'
        by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: L6-30 or 50 receptacle or Dryer plug and questions of wire size.   
 $1.00 group buy.
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'
        by josh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: For novices: pre-work on a new conversion
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Orginal Honda Accord 4door 1987 rear springs.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) RE: E.V  M G midgets ????
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: L6-30 or 50 receptacle
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.excess-solutions.com/

This is my favorite used and surplus electronic and electrical store.  I
just bought a ton of Molex connectors.  They have a bunch of the 3 position
midsize.  Lots of the 4 connector one size smaller.   Didn't see the pins
for it but they have a lot of male and female pins.  10 cents per connector.
This is also where the 125v male twists are.  I'm going down today to get
them unless I have a problem.  Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Dear Lynn,

Impressive! Did you have any trouble with high battery temperature in the summer? Do you do anything to cool the batteries?

Brendan


At 11:05 AM 11/25/02 -0700, you wrote:
...As the weather has gotten colder, the car has continued to perform well. The installation of battery heaters under each 8VGC has kept the batteries a toasty 80F, even when the outside temperature is in the 20's.
Lynn Adams
92 converter Civic VX
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/379.html
Brendan Kirby, P.E.

Power Systems Research Program
Oak Ridge National Laboratory
865-576-1768
865-574-5227 Fax

PO Box 2008
MS 6070
Oak Ridge, TN  37831
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- That's excellent. What type of currents do you pull from the batteries (average and peak)?


Adams, Lynn wrote:
As I have settled into a routine, my 43 mile each way commute is
> using about 230 watts per mile traveling a mixture of surface
> streets and highway miles.
I have about 275 cycles on the US GC8's and they still are
> working fine showing no siginificant sagging at the end
of my commute.

_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had the same trouble and it was a loose connection.  After that it took a
couple of cycles for the battery to catch up to the others.  This condition
actually takes energy that should go into the battery and heats up your
loose connection and effectively discharges or undercharges that battery.
One does learn a lot in DUH mode.  Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 6:13 PM
Subject: Re: MK II regulator troubleshooting needed


> Mark Dodrill wrote:
> >
> > Hello all.  I've been noticing some odd behavior of one of my Rudman
Mark
> > II regulators, and I wanted to ask the list about it.
> >
> > This regulator is on the the pair of YTs that always seem to get "full"
> > first.  When it gets full, the Green light comes on solid--it never
flashes
> > first.  It's either on or off.  It doesn't seem to be shunting the
current
> > to the heatsink, though, because the heatsink never changes temp (its
always
> > at ambient).  I've changed the setting for the regulation cut in, but it
> > still has the same behavior.  The charging voltage is going up to 15.1
or
> > 15.2, which is higher than I want it to be.  Since I don't have the best
> > charger, I don't have much control over the volts/amps mix, but
typically
> > the pack is being charged at 147 volts or better, at up to 3.5 amps.
> >
> > None of the other regulators are exhibiting this behavior, and they seem
> > to handle the current okay.
> >
> > Do you think my hypothesis is correct?
> >
> > Thanks.
> > Mark Dodrill
>
> You need a replacement!!!
> I will get one out to you.
>
> The next question os Why did it fail, and what let go? MOST likely the
> Fet got spanked.
> Check for loose connections. This can make one seam to  come on but not
> move any current.
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:

> Seth Murray wrote:
> > 
> > > erm, didn't Seth's accident/test show that the inertia 
> > > switch didn't do anything? Has anyone actually shown
> > > the thing to work in real life?
> > 
> > yeah, the switch didn't do crap.  It does trip if you hit
> > it hard enough with your fist, but I'd like it to trip in
> > an accident as well. 
> > I think it is important to mount it on a VERY stiff 
> > surface, not just on some sheet metal like I did.  That
> > way it will get the most shock and be more likely to trip.

This is probably a good idea, as is ensuring that the inertia switch is
mounted in the proper orientation (I do not know for a fact that they
are orientation sensitive, but it only makes sense to at least start out
mounting it in the same orientation as the OEM uses, and perhaps in a
similar location).  FWIW, my '98 Ford Escort ICE has the inertia switch
located near the fuse block, just beneath the dash in the driver's side
footwell.

> Locating the inertial switch (which triggers the airbags) is 
> a difficult problem even for the auto companies. They try to 
> find the best spot by computer simulation, but then their 
> crash tests often show that the computer is wrong, and they 
> have to do it based on experience and trial and error. 
> (Crash! Nope, that didn't work. Try putting it over here and 
> bring in another car. Crash! That was better, get another car 
> and try a little to the left. Crash! Nope, still not quite 
> right, get another car...). Gets kind of expensive. :-)

Fortunately, EVers can perform non-destructive 'crash' testing to
determine a suitable location for their inertia switch: mount the switch
in the prospective location, then give the vehicle a good kick or rap
(after appropriately protecting painted surfaces ;^) to simulate a mild
encounter with another vehicle, etc.  Have the inertia switch wired in
series with a 12V battery and light bulb so that if the switch trips,
the light goes out.

It has been quite a while since I worked with air bag sensors, however,
at that time multiple sensors would be used on a vehicle, each
calibrated to trip at a different number of G's of acceleration based on
the mounting location of the sensor.  E.g. a sensor mounted at the front
grill of the car might require a 12G acceleration to trip, since the
crush zone between the sensor and the occupants would absorb lesser
impacts and adequately protect the occupants without the airbags.
However, a sensor at the passenger compartment might only require a 5G
acceleration to trip.  These numbers are made up, but we did test
sensors at about the 12G level.

Chris Tromley wrote:

> IIRC, the inertia switch Seth refers to isn't designed for 
> airbags. It's a simple shock detector (like a ball getting 
> knocked out of a spring seat or something similar) intended 
> to shut off the fuel pump in case of a crunch.

FWIW, the air bag sensors I worked with were internally very similar to
what you describe: a metal ball was held at one end of the sensor body
by a magnet, and at the other end were a pair of contacts.  In between
was a metal cylinder through which the ball had to travel.  The
dimensions of the ball and cylinder ID were very precise, and the
clearance was small enough that the air inside the sensor body acted as
a viscous fluid.

> Don't know 
> what acceleration it needs, or if it's directional, or if 
> it's adjustable.  (Maybe it's resetable?)

I suspect it is directional, and based on hazy recollections of my air
bag sensor involvement I would guess it requires a fairly low
acceleration due to its mounting location in my Escort.  The inertia
switch is resetable, and has no external adjustments.

Cheers,

Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
...
> I would see about 30 amps
> being pumped into that bats so by the hour at 8 cents a kw that's 24 cents
> for 1 hour of regening . 3/4 mile = 2 mints  not quite a penny  but   a
> penny saved is a penny earned .

I often see see about 150 A flowing into the pack in hard regen.
My car is 3800 lb. I think Zapi just had cheesy implementation of regen.

Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Rice wrote:

> - and someone really needs to explain to me why a parent who 
> has two children, needs a 7 seater MPV!

As one who owns a small 5 passenger wagon, and whose family grew to two
children this past week, allow me to attempt an explanation:

two parents + two car seats = 4 seats consumed (minimum; 2 car seats can
actually consume enough space to render the third seat on a bench
useless).

This means that when I have company (such as the children's
grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my family;
not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station wagon
I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a bench,
reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
becomes prohibitive.

Something like a Crown Vic might still accomodate the requisite 6
passengers, however, my Lab-Husky cross wouldn't appreciate riding in
the trunk, now would my passengers appreciate her 70+ lbs on their laps.

Unfortunately, 7-passenger minivans seem to be the only option these
days... I just hope I am able to hold out until Toyota makes its hybrid
Estima minivan available in Canada.

Cheers,

Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 14:48, Roger Stockton wrote:
> This means that when I have company (such as the children's
> grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my family;
> not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station wagon
> I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a bench,
> reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
> there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
> becomes prohibitive.

Don't forget having to have more kids/seats for sharing "bus" duties
with other parents, pick up / delivery for "play dates" when the spouse
is not available to watch the kids, ......

Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's ocurred to me that I haven't seen anthing posted here by
Mitch for a long time.  If you're reading this, Mitch, tell us a 
bit about what's going on with you and your EV and anything
else you feel like telling us.

Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hi All,

Just wanted to say hello. I just joined the list and look forward to sharing my project. I live in Katy, TX (West Houston) and am converting a Honda Rebel 250 motorcycle to an EV. I will setup a web-site and post initial photos when they get developed (maybe by Thursday).

Gordon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Ok, since these can no longer quite do my commute, my pack is for sale.
It consists of 13 Optima YT's that will deliver about 5KW before the voltage plummets precipitously. A weak one was recently tested as having 85% of original AH capacity.

If you really want a 14th battery, I have another, but it probably has 70% of original capacity.
Asking $1000 for the pack.
Location: Whidbey Island (a bit north of Seattle, WA)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anybody heard when hybrid minivans will hit the market?  

My wife says the current cars are too small (even the civic).  She is
convinced that for us to have an electric or hybrid vehicle it will be
a minivan.  The minivan though has to be able to travel the long
distances with reasonable refueling times.  99% of our travel is less
than 125 miles/day.  Once this occurs, she will allow me to start on an
electric for myself (quick/good looking/awesome sound).  We drive the 7
person minivan for all trips with my son.  

The best use I've ever made of an ICE was this summer.  7 adults in the
minivan pulling a trailer with 4 sets of camping gear (lots of tents
and beer).  A hybrid though would've been the best of both worlds.  It
was a 4 hour trip one way.  We all got along nice until my homemade
trailer decided it didn't want to do nasty washboards and got rid of
the spindle/bearings with the tire.  I got better gas mileage than
everybody else in the group even fully loaded like I was (18 mpg/full
AC/90+ degrees).  The other 5 vehicles in the caravan drove 1/2 ton
pickups with 1-3 people each and some tents in their mostly empty beds.
 Their best mpg was worse than my fully loaded.

I really feel that i maximized the use of the minivan at that time. 
Now if my welding would hold up the whole trailer thing wouldn't have
happened.  If I had an EV/hybrid pulling the trailer I would tell the
story on the list.  So again, when are the hybrid vans going to be
available because the trailer story is funny (Murphy's law)? :)


Congratulations Roger!

Eric



--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> James Rice wrote:
> 
> > - and someone really needs to explain to me why a parent who 
> > has two children, needs a 7 seater MPV!
> 
> As one who owns a small 5 passenger wagon, and whose family grew to
> two
> children this past week, allow me to attempt an explanation:
> 
> two parents + two car seats = 4 seats consumed (minimum; 2 car seats
> can
> actually consume enough space to render the third seat on a bench
> useless).
> 
> This means that when I have company (such as the children's
> grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my
> family;
> not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station
> wagon
> I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a
> bench,
> reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
> there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
> becomes prohibitive.
> 
> Something like a Crown Vic might still accomodate the requisite 6
> passengers, however, my Lab-Husky cross wouldn't appreciate riding in
> the trunk, now would my passengers appreciate her 70+ lbs on their
> laps.
> 
> Unfortunately, 7-passenger minivans seem to be the only option these
> days... I just hope I am able to hold out until Toyota makes its
> hybrid
> Estima minivan available in Canada.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome;
What type of motor are you using?
Chad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Niessen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:15 PM
Subject: Greetings


> Hi All,
>
> Just wanted to say hello.  I just joined the list and look forward to
> sharing my project.  I live in Katy, TX (West Houston) and am converting a
> Honda Rebel 250 motorcycle to an EV.  I will setup a web-site and post
> initial photos when they get developed (maybe by Thursday).
>
> Gordon
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric et all
Toyota's CRV hybrid is out.
Chad

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:18 PM
Subject: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'


> Has anybody heard when hybrid minivans will hit the market?  
> 
> My wife says the current cars are too small (even the civic).  She is
> convinced that for us to have an electric or hybrid vehicle it will be
> a minivan.  The minivan though has to be able to travel the long
> distances with reasonable refueling times.  99% of our travel is less
> than 125 miles/day.  Once this occurs, she will allow me to start on an
> electric for myself (quick/good looking/awesome sound).  We drive the 7
> person minivan for all trips with my son.  
> 
> The best use I've ever made of an ICE was this summer.  7 adults in the
> minivan pulling a trailer with 4 sets of camping gear (lots of tents
> and beer).  A hybrid though would've been the best of both worlds.  It
> was a 4 hour trip one way.  We all got along nice until my homemade
> trailer decided it didn't want to do nasty washboards and got rid of
> the spindle/bearings with the tire.  I got better gas mileage than
> everybody else in the group even fully loaded like I was (18 mpg/full
> AC/90+ degrees).  The other 5 vehicles in the caravan drove 1/2 ton
> pickups with 1-3 people each and some tents in their mostly empty beds.
>  Their best mpg was worse than my fully loaded.
> 
> I really feel that i maximized the use of the minivan at that time. 
> Now if my welding would hold up the whole trailer thing wouldn't have
> happened.  If I had an EV/hybrid pulling the trailer I would tell the
> story on the list.  So again, when are the hybrid vans going to be
> available because the trailer story is funny (Murphy's law)? :)
> 
> 
> Congratulations Roger!
> 
> Eric
> 
> 
> 
> --- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > James Rice wrote:
> > 
> > > - and someone really needs to explain to me why a parent who 
> > > has two children, needs a 7 seater MPV!
> > 
> > As one who owns a small 5 passenger wagon, and whose family grew to
> > two
> > children this past week, allow me to attempt an explanation:
> > 
> > two parents + two car seats = 4 seats consumed (minimum; 2 car seats
> > can
> > actually consume enough space to render the third seat on a bench
> > useless).
> > 
> > This means that when I have company (such as the children's
> > grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my
> > family;
> > not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station
> > wagon
> > I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a
> > bench,
> > reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
> > there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
> > becomes prohibitive.
> > 
> > Something like a Crown Vic might still accomodate the requisite 6
> > passengers, however, my Lab-Husky cross wouldn't appreciate riding in
> > the trunk, now would my passengers appreciate her 70+ lbs on their
> > laps.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, 7-passenger minivans seem to be the only option these
> > days... I just hope I am able to hold out until Toyota makes its
> > hybrid
> > Estima minivan available in Canada.
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Roger.
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All:

I recently acquired a 87 scooter from a friend.  I hate to fix the ICE. Does
anyone know of any conversions for a 87 Yamaha RIVA conversion?  Or how to
go about converting a scooter?

Chad
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Gordon

I am also working on an EV motorcycle.
I am not bolting or buying yet,
Im still am looking for the right combination of equipment.
The evercells are looking very good.
1978 Honda 125 or 250 frame I have both.
I just got an email you may be intrested in :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------
The target spec's of the AC controller planned for production are:
150A 72V operation without braking, 60v with braking with cost about $200.
(march 2003)
Ives Meadors
Crux Electronics  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------

An AC motor would be very intresting yes ?


Trotman
Va. Beach

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Gordon Niessen
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 4:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle List
Subject: Greetings


Hi All,

Just wanted to say hello.  I just joined the list and look forward to
sharing my project.  I live in Katy, TX (West Houston) and am converting a
Honda Rebel 250 motorcycle to an EV.  I will setup a web-site and post
initial photos when they get developed (maybe by Thursday).

Gordon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was complaining about the same thing last week and an acquaintance of mine
said they had bought a recent American car (sorry it didn't get stored in my
memory) with a bench front seat.  They said they had to order it from the
factory but that it was still possible if you were happy to give the up
bucket seats for a 6th passenger.  Go bug your car dealer!

Lawrence

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Stockton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: November 25, 2002 12:48
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies


James Rice wrote:

> - and someone really needs to explain to me why a parent who 
> has two children, needs a 7 seater MPV!

As one who owns a small 5 passenger wagon, and whose family grew to two
children this past week, allow me to attempt an explanation:

two parents + two car seats = 4 seats consumed (minimum; 2 car seats can
actually consume enough space to render the third seat on a bench
useless).

This means that when I have company (such as the children's
grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my family;
not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station wagon
I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a bench,
reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
becomes prohibitive.

Something like a Crown Vic might still accomodate the requisite 6
passengers, however, my Lab-Husky cross wouldn't appreciate riding in
the trunk, now would my passengers appreciate her 70+ lbs on their laps.

Unfortunately, 7-passenger minivans seem to be the only option these
days... I just hope I am able to hold out until Toyota makes its hybrid
Estima minivan available in Canada.

Cheers,

Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have a 144 Volt Curtiss controller and will have a pack of twelve 12V
Trojan batteries.  Does anyone have recommendations for a particular charger
given this configuration?  The only one we have seen in this connection is
the Zivan 240 VAC.

Johanna Soliday
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 03:22 PM, Chad Peddy wrote:
Eric et all
Toyota's CRV hybrid is out.
Chad
Chad,

What exactly are you talking about? The "CR-V" is a Honda product (I own one). From what I've heard, Honda is planning to make a hybrid CR-V, but not for a few years yet.

I've also heard rumors of a Toyota mini-van/SUV type hybrid vehicle, but nothing has been released yet (that I can find) on that either. And they've got nothing with a name even close to "CRV".

So, how about a little more info on what you're talking about?

Later,

Matt
--
If you're reading this, chances are your either:
A. A Honda freak, just like me.
'01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
or
C. An EV freak, just like me!
:-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to all,

Lawrence Rhodes wrote:

> I gotta ask what size wire you use from the filler to the charger?  I am
> going up to #8.  I am tired of melting plugs.

I use 10 gauge, as the max current draw of my tweaked PFC20 is about 23 amps with a 240
vac supply and that size doesn't even get warm. You must have a poor power factor with
what you're using for it to be creating all that heat....been there, done that. A
Manzanita Micro PFC type of charger isn't cheap, but it sure is efficient!

See Ya......John Wayland

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just my opinions here, and speculation.

First, the answer depends on how much money you have, because
theoretically I guess you could go to Solectria or AC Propulsion and,
for a lot of money, maybe have them put something together for you.

You could also go to some other person with knowledge but perhaps
lower profile or pricing, and see about putting something together for
yourself.  I imagine many of the EV'ers would be up for a "project"
but that's what it would be.  Someone contacted me about meeting with
a person who has recently done an EV-trailer hybrid, but I haven't yet
followed up.

Assuming that what you are looking for is an answer as to major
manufacturer affordable-vehicle availability, the answer is, I guess,
"I don't know".  There was an announcement today that did give an idea
as to Detroit Hybrid truck-ish availability:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/021125/autos_chrysler_1.html

I am skeptical of what kind of mileage (seems to be important to you)
you'll really get.

Since you are talking a lot about the pulling a trailer issue, note
that some of the EV-hybrid combo suggestions involve a pure EV towing
a generator behind it.  So, since you are already talking about
pulling a trailer, maybe you wouldn't mind this combination, going
forward?  That is what, for example, AC Propulsion would probably talk
about if you were a zillionaire and approached them seeking a hybrid.

I wonder if someone might read your post and decide, for example, that
offering a trailer for sale for RAV4 EV owners might not be a bad
idea, but I personally wouldn't go into that business until I'd
verified with Toyota that they will get more of them on the road,
something that does not appear to be certain to me.

I've driven the Civic Hybrid, and I liked it for a few different
reasons, including the nice Continuously Variable Transmission which
meant that it was adequately powered for a four-cylinder and not a
lame-o high-mileage grossly under-powered car.  This would not fit
your van goals, but I'm just mentioning.

I've had extensive debates with biodiesel and clean-diesel advocates,
and it does turn out that diesel does get higher miles per unit
energy, in some cases any way you measure it.  Even though it is
cheating (because it has higher BTU per unit liquid volume), the
advantage in mileage goes beyond even that in some cases.  

So, to get to the point, purchase of a diesel powered van, if both the
engine and fuel were particularly good, might result in higher mileage
(for example, if VW ever brings such a thing to the states), even
though you wouldn't (unfortunately) be incorporating any EV technology
into your efforts.  I mention the caveat about the fuel because at
present American Diesel is not as clean as Euro Diesel (not even
close), and the Refiners have been resisting the mandates to clean it
up, but I think they're losing.  Whether gasoline or diesel, clean
fuel is in many cases just as important as a clean-burning engine, in
the attempt to reduce various emissions.

Companies like VW or Honda have been so good about making
better-mileage vehicles available that I would be surprised if they
wouldn't have something that might come close to your
higher-mileage-van goals in diesel or gasoline or CNG, even if not
hybrid.  I'd just make sure it's not one of these overly top-heavy
Japanese-ish designs that looks like a rollover candidate.

jl



On Mon, 25 Nov 2002 13:18:41 -0800 (PST), you wrote:

>Has anybody heard when hybrid minivans will hit the market?  
>
>My wife says the current cars are too small (even the civic).  She is
>convinced that for us to have an electric or hybrid vehicle it will be
>a minivan.  The minivan though has to be able to travel the long
>distances with reasonable refueling times.  99% of our travel is less
>than 125 miles/day.  Once this occurs, she will allow me to start on an
>electric for myself (quick/good looking/awesome sound).  We drive the 7
>person minivan for all trips with my son.  
>
>The best use I've ever made of an ICE was this summer.  7 adults in the
>minivan pulling a trailer with 4 sets of camping gear (lots of tents
>and beer).  A hybrid though would've been the best of both worlds.  It
>was a 4 hour trip one way.  We all got along nice until my homemade
>trailer decided it didn't want to do nasty washboards and got rid of
>the spindle/bearings with the tire.  I got better gas mileage than
>everybody else in the group even fully loaded like I was (18 mpg/full
>AC/90+ degrees).  The other 5 vehicles in the caravan drove 1/2 ton
>pickups with 1-3 people each and some tents in their mostly empty beds.
> Their best mpg was worse than my fully loaded.
>
>I really feel that i maximized the use of the minivan at that time. 
>Now if my welding would hold up the whole trailer thing wouldn't have
>happened.  If I had an EV/hybrid pulling the trailer I would tell the
>story on the list.  So again, when are the hybrid vans going to be
>available because the trailer story is funny (Murphy's law)? :)
>
>
>Congratulations Roger!
>
>Eric
>
>
>
>--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> James Rice wrote:
>> 
>> > - and someone really needs to explain to me why a parent who 
>> > has two children, needs a 7 seater MPV!
>> 
>> As one who owns a small 5 passenger wagon, and whose family grew to
>> two
>> children this past week, allow me to attempt an explanation:
>> 
>> two parents + two car seats = 4 seats consumed (minimum; 2 car seats
>> can
>> actually consume enough space to render the third seat on a bench
>> useless).
>> 
>> This means that when I have company (such as the children's
>> grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my
>> family;
>> not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station
>> wagon
>> I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a
>> bench,
>> reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
>> there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
>> becomes prohibitive.
>> 
>> Something like a Crown Vic might still accomodate the requisite 6
>> passengers, however, my Lab-Husky cross wouldn't appreciate riding in
>> the trunk, now would my passengers appreciate her 70+ lbs on their
>> laps.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, 7-passenger minivans seem to be the only option these
>> days... I just hope I am able to hold out until Toyota makes its
>> hybrid
>> Estima minivan available in Canada.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Roger.
>> 
>
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All (and to Bob),
> 
> Bob Bath wrote:
> 
> >The existing Civic conversion uses a DCP
> Raptor...Changing the controller adds $1600 to
> the
> >cost...The Curtis controller employs a potbox &
> throttle cable.
> 
> Getting rid of that awful, squeal-generating Curtis
> and replacing it with a silent, more
> powerful DCP product will be the best thing you
> could do...who wants an irritating squeal
> to ruin the otherwise silent operation of an EV?
> 
> You didn't mention what type of motor you'll be
> using, but judging by the rest of your
> design, it's a pretty good bet it's not going to be
> an AC system and that it will be a DC
> motor of some sorts. Make sure to properly advance
> the motor's timing for Honda's reverse
> engine rotation to avoid a fire-balled motor.
If the Rabbit doesn't sell, I trade the 9" for an 8"
(weight, more space for batts), and yes, had thought
of the reverse rotation, but thanks!  
> 
> >I'm thinking that for a name, I'll use
> 'CivicWithACord'.
> 
> I think that's a terrific name!
> 
> See Ya.....John Wayland
> 


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It turns out that my Aspire has 4 inch springs in the front.  13 3/4 inches
long.  It turns out that the Aspire front gvw is just about the same as the
Accord(Accord is a little heavier) rear gvw.  What are people using to beef
up the rear springs of their Accords.  I could probably use it in my Aspire.
Maybe even the original Accord springs.  Lawrence Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm working on one myself... On and off... I admire and envy those of
you who are on the road electrically (MG or otherwise). Mine is one of
the 5 Midgets in the EV list photo album, though I should update my
pictures. It's a white 1973 (round wheel arch, no rubber bumpers) and
will be almost stock on the outside (except lowered, mag wheels, and NO
gas cap or tail pipe). It will not be a musclecar by today's EV
standards, but I'm doing the hard work and sparing little expense to
preserve or even enhance the bodacious handling. I will consider myself
very lucky to achieve your 40 mile range on a good day, your setup is
inherently more "rangey" (mine is 192V single Optima string, Auburn
Grizzly controller, 8-inch XP-1227 motor, same as John Bryan's Ghia!).

I will really miss the sounds of the old engine and exhaust note, but
most other things will be decidedly better. And they should be for the
amount of work I'm doing... The stars are aligned for me to make much
progress over the winter. But that's what I said about last summer! I
have a couple of sticky design problems to solve and then it should all
flow together reasonably well. 1) housing and maintenance of buried
batteries; 2) rear anti-sway bar and Panhard rod fighting to the death
over the same space; 3) routing and protecting battery cables that go
between the front and rear of the car; 4) one of the batteries fighting
to the death over the same space with the handbrake cable. There are
other problems of course, but not as critical.

Jack, glad to hear your car's still on the road. It's hard to tell from
the EV List Album whether the cars under construction were ever
completed, or if they were, are they still healthy? I have not updated
my entry for almost 3 years for example... Maybe there should be a
"Status as of Date" line item in the standard format.

- GT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: jack gretta [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2002 1:04 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: E.V M G midgets ????
> 
> 
> 
>     How many  MG midgets do we have  as electric 
> modification. I have a 1974 I have been driving for 7 years 
> its 86 volts 8" advance 2500 lbs very nice no rocket.But Its 
> a like a 1275 motor for about 40 miles then slows down. W1fdx 
>  Jack.  I wonder how many MG  EVs are out there.
> 
> --
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eric Penne wrote:
> 
> Has anybody heard when hybrid minivans will hit the market?
> 
> My wife says the current cars are too small (even the civic).  She is
> convinced that for us to have an electric or hybrid vehicle it will be
> a minivan.  The minivan though has to be able to travel the long
> distances with reasonable refueling times.  99% of our travel is less
> than 125 miles/day.  Once this occurs, she will allow me to start on an
> electric for myself (quick/good looking/awesome sound).  We drive the 7
> person minivan for all trips with my son.
> 
> The best use I've ever made of an ICE was this summer.  7 adults in the
> minivan pulling a trailer with 4 sets of camping gear (lots of tents
> and beer).  A hybrid though would've been the best of both worlds.  It
> was a 4 hour trip one way.  We all got along nice until my homemade
> trailer decided it didn't want to do nasty washboards and got rid of
> the spindle/bearings with the tire.  I got better gas mileage than
> everybody else in the group even fully loaded like I was (18 mpg/full
> AC/90+ degrees).  The other 5 vehicles in the caravan drove 1/2 ton
> pickups with 1-3 people each and some tents in their mostly empty beds.
>  Their best mpg was worse than my fully loaded.
> 
> I really feel that i maximized the use of the minivan at that time.
> Now if my welding would hold up the whole trailer thing wouldn't have
> happened.  If I had an EV/hybrid pulling the trailer I would tell the
> story on the list.  So again, when are the hybrid vans going to be
> available because the trailer story is funny (Murphy's law)? :)
> 
> Congratulations Roger!
> 
> Eric
> 
> --- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > James Rice wrote:
> >
> > > - and someone really needs to explain to me why a parent who
> > > has two children, needs a 7 seater MPV!
> >
> > As one who owns a small 5 passenger wagon, and whose family grew to
> > two
> > children this past week, allow me to attempt an explanation:
> >
> > two parents + two car seats = 4 seats consumed (minimum; 2 car seats
> > can
> > actually consume enough space to render the third seat on a bench
> > useless).
> >
> > This means that when I have company (such as the children's
> > grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my
> > family;
> > not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station
> > wagon
> > I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a
> > bench,
> > reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
> > there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
> > becomes prohibitive.
> >
> > Something like a Crown Vic might still accomodate the requisite 6
> > passengers, however, my Lab-Husky cross wouldn't appreciate riding in
> > the trunk, now would my passengers appreciate her 70+ lbs on their
> > laps.
> >
> > Unfortunately, 7-passenger minivans seem to be the only option these
> > days... I just hope I am able to hold out until Toyota makes its
> > hybrid
> > Estima minivan available in Canada.

I'm on the Toyota-Prius email list. The scuttlebutt there is that Toyota
does have a hybrid minivan (the Estima) that they sell in Japan. But,
there are no plans to sell it in the US. Americans want SUVs, not
minivans. So they are working on a hybrid SUV, but it is probably years
away from being available.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Toyota is a RAV-4 not a CRV.  Saw one in San Jose today.

my model error

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Matthew Muelver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 1:58 PM
Subject: Re: Hybrid availability? was: Other Rices'


> On Monday, November 25, 2002, at 03:22 PM, Chad Peddy wrote:
> > Eric et all
> > Toyota's CRV hybrid is out.
> > Chad
> 
> Chad,
> 
> What exactly are you talking about?  The "CR-V" is a Honda product (I 
> own one).  From what I've heard, Honda is planning to make a hybrid 
> CR-V, but not for a few years yet.
> 
> I've also heard rumors of a Toyota mini-van/SUV type hybrid vehicle, 
> but nothing has been released yet (that I can find) on that either.  
> And they've got nothing with a name even close to "CRV".
> 
> So, how about a little more info on what you're talking about?
> 
> Later,
> 
> Matt
> --
> If you're reading this, chances are your either:
> A. A Honda freak, just like me.
> '01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
> B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
> Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
> or
> C. An EV freak, just like me!
> :-)
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Lawrence, on my Civic I originally used an L15-30 twist lock male receptacle installed in place of the fuel filler neck. I feed the two hot circuits to the 220 VAC Zivan NG5 charger and one hot and the neutral to my home-built "Fair Radio" based 120 volt charger. The other hot feed the 120 volt interior pre-heater and battery warmers. The ground was of course grounded to the chassis as were the chargers.

To match the inlet, I made up three cords. One 120 VAC unit, with a standard 15 amp male on one end and an L15-30 female on the other. This supplied power only to the Fair Radio charger, not the Zivan or heaters.

The second cord was equipped with a male dryer plug, and only supplied power to the Zivan, not the Fair Radio or heaters. (Two hots, no neutral, one ground)

The third cord, equipped with an L14-50 range plug, and carried both hots, the neutral, and the ground and allows everything to receive power.

Basically, I simply matched the cord to the available power and needs.

Since then I have upgraded the car to use the Avcon charge ports, in the hope that someday there would be a public charging stations that wasn't about 1000 miles away. That seems to have been too much to ask.

When I updated the car, I still retained all the previous capability, the L15-30 receptacle is now behind the rear licence plate (which folds down), the Avcon is in the gas filler position, and a 15 amp male inlet was added to the from bumper for the Fair Radio and heaters. Eventually I would like to add a small 220/110 step down transformer to run the heater through the Avcon.

Thanks,


Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---

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