EV Digest 2447

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Charger for 144 V system
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Predictions from 1992
        by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Question about ammeter with regen
        by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Responding to EV Naysayers...More Blue Meanie Tales
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
        by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
        by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Question about ammeter with regen
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: Responding to EV Naysayers
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) DCConveterInput
        by "Johanna and Stan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: EVLN(Otay Ranch will nEV around the community)
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) EVLN(Oil/Coal funds OSU world speed EV)
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) EVLN(Santa Rosa Zap holiday shop emerges after bankruptcy)
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) EVLN(Look Ma, Ford's bamboo EV 500+-piece kit)
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:13 PM 12/1/2002 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
> Even if I figured a way to wedge them in, watering in place would be
> impossible. I'd have to pull the pack out of the car to water it.
Or more likely, set up an automatic watering system.
Not with those. The way the Sparrow is setup, IF I could wedge in a 9.25" tall cell, it would be literally wedged in. NO space above the fill cap at all.

> Then there is the voltage problem. 15 of these makes a 18V battery.
Yes; they lead to a new system voltage.
Which adds significantly to the cost.  Makes it Not An Option.

> I need about 5.5KWH for my normal commute.

> That would give 7.488KWH of capacity
So, the question becomes. how much of the theoretical capacity can you actually GET out of NiCd cells? If I can count on being able to actually get 7KWH out of such a pack, it becomes a useful possibility.

> 2) Do NiCd play nicely in parallel?

They are OK on discharge. On charge, you can have problems, especially
at higher temperatures and charging currents. The simplest solution
would be to charge them independently (2 chargers), or sequentially
(charge one, then the other) or alternate between them (keep switching
the charger back and forth between the two strings every 5 minutes or
so).
You'd need a different charging algorithm (which might be a challenge to
get for the Zivan).
I'll be working with a PFC 20, not a Zivan. Wiring up something to alternate strings would be possible.

If it were me, I'd group the batteries in some convenient voltage, like
12v, and rig some kind of monitoring and control system.
Also this once again brings up the question of series/parallel strings.
Is it better to have 2 strings of 156v?
Or 1 string of buddy pairs?

How tolerant are NiCd's of over charging?
How tolerant of 100% DOD?
Operating Temperature?

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....		http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Johanna and Stan wrote:
> 
> We have a 144 Volt Curtiss controller and will have a pack of twelve 12V
> Trojan batteries.  Does anyone have recommendations for a particular charger
> given this configuration?  The only one we have seen in this connection is
> the Zivan 240 VAC.
> 
> Johanna Soliday
My PFC series of chargers will do just fine in this configuration.
Check the Website.

-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.bayarea.com/mld/bayarea/business/technology/personal_technology/4600181.htm

San Jose Mercury News reporter Mike Langberg made some predictions in
1992 of what 2002 would be like.  In the above link he grades himself, and
gives himself an A for electric cars:

    "They're not yet a big part of the market, but electric and
    hybrid vehicles are no longer an unusual sight on Bay Area
    highways."

I personally think a C would be more like it, especially because the
prediction stated

    "Behind the wheel of her electrically powered 1999 General Motors
    Megavolt..."

though I suppose in 1999 you actually *could* get an EV1...if you tried
hard enough...

-- 
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Didn't someone post about installing a set of these in an EV several months back? I seem to recall pictures as well. Anyone remember who, what, and where?

Thanks,


Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>

Lee-

I obviously wrote my reply before I read yours. I have only charged
single strings of wet NiCads, so I am curious to hear about a potential
charging problem, and what sort of currents and temperatures are
involved. I also wasn't aware that Peukert by definition only applies to PbA

Seth


> 
> > That would give 7.488KWH of capacity (is there any Peukert adjustment
> > here?)
> 
> No.
> 
> > It would cost (they don't show any quantity price breaks on this
> > cell) about $1820. I'd probably want to buy a dozen or two extra
> > cells for replacements, so add another $150 to that. Hmm, might
> > be a possibility.  Questions on this are:
> > 1) (again) Peukert effect on NiCd? (hopefully none?)
> 
> See above.
> 
> > 2) Do NiCd play nicely in parallel?
> 
> They are OK on discharge. On charge, you can have problems, especially
> at higher temperatures and charging currents. The simplest solution
> would be to charge them independently (2 chargers), or sequentially
> (charge one, then the other) or alternate between them (keep switching
> the charger back and forth between the two strings every 5 minutes or
> so).
> 
> You'd need a different charging algorithm (which might be a challenge to
> get for the Zivan).
> 
> If it were me, I'd group the batteries in some convenient voltage, like
> 12v, and rig some kind of monitoring and control system.
> --
> Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

-- 
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1)I can't say what *this* 24Ah module does. I suspect very little
Peukert like effect, though. You may want to buy one and test it, and
also test that it will do the power you want. Some are engineered for
high power (and I suspect these are) and some are engineered for higher
energy, like Saft (See Joe Smalley's Saft test at manzanitamicro.com)
2)Haven't done it, but voltage rise at end of charge is more pronounced
that NiMH (to 1.6vpc), which makes them easier to parallel during
charging. They also don't seem to peak like NiMH do. They just bubble a
lot at 1.6vpc and sit there; and as they are wet they are more tolerant
to overcharge. Becasue fo all this and that they are about the most
tolerant chemistry of 100% DOD or reversal , I suspect that two parallel
packs would be fine.

Seth


"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
> 
> At 11:33 PM 11/30/2002 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
> >John, is there any chance these 9.25" high cells would fit in your
> >Sparrow? If so, they are cheaper than a new set of Optimas, and should
> 
> (Actually, they come out to the same price as a new pack of Optimas.)
> An Optima YT is 7.8" tall.  (I'm assuming the posts are another 1"
> more).  IF we assume the 9.25" height of these cells INCLUDES the
> posts/filler cap, that makes them 1/2" taller than the YT's.  There are
> several YT sized areas that don't have this extra height.  Even if I
> figured a way to wedge them in, watering in place would be impossible.  I'd
> have to pull the pack out of the car to water it.
> Then there is the voltage problem.  15 of these makes a 18V battery.  So I
> can either replace the controller (absolute max voltage, being dangerous,
> is 200V).  Or run with 2 strings of  118V or so.  Neither one sounds like a
> good choice.
> 
> One question about NiCd's.  How does Peukert affect them?  Not at all?  Or
> just less than Lead-Acid?
> 
> I need about 5.5KWH for my normal commute.
> 
> Now, they also have some 24AH cells that are 3.125"x1"x8.125".  Depending
> on how much puzzle work is done, between 18 and 21 of these could be fit in
> for each YT.  Say I can wedge in 20.  This at least gives 2 strings of
> 156V, so the voltage would be ok.  Their height should fit without undo
> contortions, and I MIGHT be able to hook up some kind of watering system to
> the hard-to-reach cells.  That would give 7.488KWH of capacity (is there
> any Peukert adjustment here?)
> It would cost (they don't show any quantity price breaks on this cell)
> about $1820.  I'd probably want to buy a dozen or two extra cells for
> replacements, so add another $150 to that.
> Hmm, might be a possibility.  Questions on this are:
> 1) (again) Peukert effect on NiCd? (hopefully none?)
> 2) Do NiCd play nicely in parallel?
> 
> --
> John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....         http://www.CasaDelGato.com

-- 
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,

Can you replace the ammeter?  When I had a Zapi controller with regen
I bought a Westach ammeter from Wilde Ev that reads 100-0-500 amps.
They can adjust the scale to whatever you need.

Ralph


Michael Hoskinson writes:
> 
> Hi EVerybody.  I've a potential problem. I have an analog ammeter 
> (Westach brand) connected across the 500 amp shunt.  When I set 
> up the regen on my Zapi sem-3 controller (which is currently set 
> for minimum regen) am I going to kill the ammeter?  My knowledge 
> of electronics is limited.  Will a bridge rectifier work to keep 
> the ammeter showing positive or do diodes require higher voltage 
>   than the 50 mv shunt will provide?  I could just take the 
> ammeter out and rely on the e-meter, of course, but it looks cool 
> in my dash alongside a similar style voltmeter.
> 
> Mike Hoskinson
> 
> 
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

You know, I'm going to have to start writing a regular weekly column 'The Adventures of
Blue Meanie'!  I swear, this car is like a 'fun and interesting experience' magnet! I 
had
taken a short morning trip in my beloved electric car, then came home and read Tom 
Shay's
post and started to write my thoughts  on this 'Responding to EV Naysayers' thing. I
wanted to respond to his post with the memory of what had just happened still fresh in 
my
mind, however, I got interrupted and so didn't finish writing until now, much later in 
the
day. Having just now returned from yet another fun experience with the Meanie, again,
while at the downtown EV charging station, the scene of other recent Blue Meanie
encounters (Fast charge "gas" stations, Blue Meanie, & Portland Cops!), I've decided to
combine the two episodes together.....

Thomas Shay wrote:

> Don't worry about the naysayers.  You can't make them into
> fans of electric vehicles no matter what say or do.  Invest
> your time and patience with people willing and interested in
> learning about EVs.
>
> Tom Shay

Though Tom's basic premise is correct, I'm not in total agreement with him on this. I
have, on too many occasions to list, completely turned around bone head types, to where
they actually think EVs are cool and a good idea... I may have done it again just 
today!
I do it, with an EV that breaks their stereotyped view of what 'they' see EVs as being
slow, dull, and boring rolling science projects only for the timid tree hugger types.

Episode one.....

I was out in Blue Meanie this morning and had just washed it, so the car was 
glimmering in
the crisp Fall sunlight with beads of water jiggling atop the lustrous paint job. I had
been noticing that coming up from behind me was a humongous Moby Dick style, manly
machine, a Ford pickup of huge proportions. The all white gargantuan Ford F350, the
monster sized platform that the piggy Excursion SUV is based on, was decked out with a
full canopy, huge rims and tires, and a rude sounding, thrashing clattering diesel
engine...we're talking the complete opposite of my small sized, kind to the environment
electrified Datsun! About the only positive thing I could get from his rig, was that it
too, looked as though it had just been washed and detailed.

I could see that he was checking out my car, probably because he was appreciating that 
it
was in immaculate condition, something the two of us seemed to have in common. I slowed
for a light that had gone to yellow and was driving very calmly, making a gradual
slow-down.  I could see him looking down from his macho perch at the 'VOLTS' plate, 
then
saw his eyes dart left at the Mike Chancey 'ELECTRIC' emblem on the trunk lid...it was
clear to me that he had figured out the car was electric. At the red light, I lost 
visual
contact with his face and could only see the huge expansive grill of the mighty Ford
looming high off the ground behind me, now with the over-driven distorted sound of his
obviously factory Ford 'high end' sound system (cranked way up) mixed in with the
offensive diesel clatter and racket. I was reminded of that Subaru commercial where the
happy couple in their Outback wagon has come upon a few graceful deer in the woods and 
are
admiring their beauty, when it is all ruined by some obnoxious dude who comes roaring 
up
in his V8 powered huge SUV, and after his noise, dust, dirt, and aggressive arrival has
scared off the dear, he asks, "What are you looking at?"

The road was an east-bound one way four lane affair at this point, the far left one a 
left
turn lane only, the lane next to it was going straight ahead, the third lane, my lane, 
was
also going straight ahead, and the fourth lane to my right was a run-out lane that 
flanked
a shopping mall and branched right a couple blocks ahead onto another street. The lane 
to
my left had lots of cars in it, and I was at the head of my lane with macho man behind 
me.
The lane to my right was wide open though, and he had determined that my little 'ol
ee-lek-trik car was surely going to hold him and his mighty 'Rig De Ville' up, and as I
was surmising this, he confirmed it with a sudden lane change that nearly caught my 
car's
right rear corner as he pulled alongside to my right...his sound system and engine 
clatter
even more obnoxious....time to begin the EV lesson of the day!

The first thing I did, was to lower the right window lift, and dial up the Meanie's
powerful sound system with some funky 'Tower of Power'...I cranked it up to competition
levels, but unlike his LO-FI setup, mine remained crystal clear with the MB Quarts 
singing
and the four eights in back pumping out copious amounts of beefy bass courtesy of
Chester's flying feet on the Hammond B3's bass pedals. Ford-man immediately looked over
and down at my car, seemingly stunned that my little eco-car had such a commanding
system....'electric cars can't have a powerful sound system' myth, soundly debunked!

As I glanced over, the large 'Power Stroke' badging against a wall of white paint
proclaimed the diesel's might...good thing I had on my green flamed Oakleys! I placed
Meanie's 4 speed tranny in 2nd gear, ready to slam open the throttle solenoid, but I 
had
decided I'd let him make the first move, after all, there was the 'slight' possibility
that I could have made an error in my 'profiling'...perhaps he was merely going to move
ahead and take a right turn into the mall parking lot....nah, I'm rarely wrong about 
these
macho man types! Besides, I have recently installed a fresh set of Optimas (the old 
pack
was still giving 15 miles range after 5 years of hard-accelerating service), and 
combined
with the 'It Vil not Schlip' clutch and that bodacious DCP 1200 amp controller, my 
little
2340 lb. EV has what feels like a 0-60 time in the low 6 second region. Sure enough, 
when
the light turned green, the nose of the white whale lifted, the engine roared and 
rattled,
and he was 'a go'n fur it!' In an instant, my Rebock was buried and the Goodyears were
squealing as Meanie laid about 40 feet of second gear rubber, launching the car swiftly
and hurtling it instantly ahead of Moby Dick with wisps of white tire smoke peeling 
out of
the right rear fender well. I flew past him, banging 3rd gear as the rear squatted and 
the
tires barked...he just had to be stunned again...'electric cars are slow and wimpy' 
myth,
soundly debunked!  Sure enough, he never had intended to turn right, he only wanted to 
get
in front of me. With his now flaccid ego, he pulled in behind me, maybe 10 car lengths 
in
pursuit...what fun!

Not wanting to get nabbed by any lurking cops, I lit up the brake lights, slowed down, 
and
cruised along at a pinch above the 35 mph speed limit. Again, I could see his face in 
my
mirror, and his expression was priceless! We made it up to the next major intersection,
where he pulled alongside me to my left and his passenger window went down...so did 
mine.
As he slid over and leaned out the window, I was expecting either a red face and a gun
barrel, or hopefully, something a bit less dramatic. He seemed OK but still a bit 
glazed
over as he asked:

"Is that 'really' an electric car?"

Plasma Boy..."Yeah, it is."

Macho man..."You smoked 'em! Man, it flies!"

Plasma Boy..."Yeah, I've probably got more torque on board than your diesel has."

Macho man..."Wow, I had no idea they could move like that!"

And with that, the light changed, and we went our separate ways. Sometimes, actions 
speak
louder than words, and though many may be disgusted with my teenage antics, there is no
doubt in my mind, that this was a very potent way to respond to an EV Naysayer!

Episode two.....

It was 4:00 when my wife came out to visit me in our backyard EV shop...she always 
knows
where to find me. I had just vacuumed and cleaned Blue Meanie as I had the car on a 1 
amp
equalization charge. She reminded me that 'coffee girl' needed to be picked up up at
around 4:30, and perhaps I might want to leave now so that I could be there a bit early
and recharge at the EV Charging Station. It's so cool to have an EV savvy wife!

I left for the downtown run, and after already having my testosterone EVent earlier 
with
the dude in big Ford pickup, this run was to be a 'see how little ahrs you can use, to
make the gradual downhill 9 drive miles to the Starbucks block.' This is a fun freeway 
run
where Blue Meanie's 156V (nominal) system only draws 45 amps or so to cruise along at 
60
mph while the pack stays at 162V or so...figuring losses, that's only about 7 
horsepower!
It usually takes about 8.6 - 9 ahrs from the pack. The run to downtown was leisurely 
with
none of the more typical 'spirited' driving I often fall into, and when I rolled into 
the
charging spot, the car had used just 8.4 ahrs! I guess I'll raise the bar and see if I 
can
make the run sometime at 8 ahrs on the nose.

I popped the trunk, pulled out the 240V charging cord, opened the fuel filler door and
twised-in the L6-30, plugged in the NEMA 14-50 to the charge stand, and twisted the 
power
selector knob to hear that familiar 'clunk' as the stand's contactor engaged. As I was
about to hit the remote door locks and walk around the corner to let my daughter know I
was there, I heard some other odd sounds....clip-clop-clip-clop-clip-clop...man, was 
the
contactor freaking out? Nope...it was one of Portland's many horse drawn carriages 
coming
past me with a tourist couple bundled up to enjoy a brisk cool Fall late afternoon 
tour of
downtown. The area is quite pretty, with modern glass skywalks, tall buildings, lighted
trees, neon signs, and a view of Tom McCall Park's fountain and the Willamette River
ahead. I was next treated to an entertaining experience (it always happens when I'm 
with
Blue Meanie) as I listened in to the driver of the carriage as she was giving her  tour
with a zeal that was refreshing...

"We're in the waterfront district, and ahead you can see Tom McCall Park and the
Willamette River, the east-west boundary of Portland...and on your left is one of
Portland's electric car charging stations, and this nice young man here charging his 
car!"

Whoa, here I am with my 51 year old frame and my salt and pepper beard (mostly salt 
these
days), and she's calling me a nice 'young' man? Hmm, I like her! I was thrilled that 
she
had segued into the electric car thing, so I of course, being the ham I am, I got into 
the
act:

"Yeah....you're the only vehicle down here that is less polluting than my electric 
car."

What followed had me, literally speechless and laughing as she rolled on with her
showmanship...

"Yeah, I get great 'grass' mileage!"

....and as she rounded the corner and looked back at me, she taunted, "Say, how many 
miles
to the bale of hay do you get?"

It's not often I get one-upped, but she nailed me!

Next up, again as I attempted to leave, here came another horse-drawn carriage, this 
one
with four tourists aboard. As they approached, the driver said, "Nice 
Datsun....electric,
right?" He was evidently knowledgeable about cars, as many today don't even know what 
kind
of car Blue Meanie is. He stopped and the passengers wanted to know a few things about 
my
car, and so there was a brief conversation before they clip-clopped off into the 
darkening
late afternoon.

Right behind them, came a third one horsepower vehicle, and again, the tourists were
fascinated with my electric car....what fun! As they clogged away, I made my get-away
around the corner and through the locked glass Starbucks doors, let my daughter know I 
was
there and that I'd be around the corner for her. I went back to pre-warm the car when I
was approached by a young security guard who 'really' wanted to see the car. I spent 
the
next five minutes with the hood up and a small crowing crowd of onlookers...what fun! 
My
daughter came up, and asked, "You got the electric heater going?"

The way back home was a current sucking affair, as it is all slightly uphill, and, the
famous Columbia Gorge east winds had kicked up, so we were fighting a 30 mph head wind.
The traffic was humping along at 70-ish, so I stayed with the flow. Additionally, the
temperature was dropping like a rock, so we kept the heater blasting. Compared to my 
solo
45 amp current draw on the way downtown, with a two passenger load at higher uphill
speeds, we now pulling 125-160 amps, with it only dropping occasionally to 75 amps or
so...no problems of course, but just an interesting comparison. Under less adverse
conditions and by myself at 60 mph or so, the car usually pulls 60-75 amps all the way
home.

When we rolled into the EV shop driveway, the return trip had used 19.8 ahrs, but the 
pack
was still showing strong voltage at around 158 volts with the lights on and the heater
still pulling juice. I plugged in the car, and in the time I took to unload a few 
things
from the trunk and do a few shop item put-aways, the strong PFC20 had already put back 
5
ahrs!

Later in the evening, the fully charged Meanie was taken out for various shopping 
errands.

Having more EV fun than should be legal.....

See Ya....John Wayland












--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know a lot of ICEs that are nearly as quit as EVs (at least at low
RPMs)

Anyway, give pedestrians and cyclists some credit.  As a long time
cyclist I can tell you that I can here the tires of a car long before it
gets to me, especially if it's going fairly quickly (30+ mph).  FWIW my
hearing isn't particularly good anymore either.

Personally I think this is a non-problem.  Except in parking lots,
however, hopefully you can avoid running over too many shoppers when you
are driving at 5mph.

On Sun, 2002-12-01 at 17:42, damon henry wrote:
> I love the silence of an EV, but I also know there is a huge downside to 
> this.  If there were a significant number of EV's on the rode I believe 
> there would be a lot more accidents involving pedestrians and bicyclists.  I 
> know that my ears are almost always first to alert me that a car is 
> somewhere in the immediate vicinity.
> 
> >Your vehicle doesn't have cold start pollution, fill-up service
> >station pollution, noise pollution (one of my favorites), etc.
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
> 
> 
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really disagree with this notion.  Most of the noise coming from
today's vehicles comes from the tires not the engines.  The only time I
have experienced any safety issues like this in the eight years I have
been driving electric vehicles, has been when I am in a parking lots at
very slow speeds.  I have been using an electric bike a lot in the last
six month (1600 miles) and I have more of a problem with vehicles not
following the rules of the road.  For this I use my eyes much more than
my ears and I am careful to look at the eyes of the other drivers.

- Will

Will Beckett

Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)

Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations
are tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 9:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)


I love the silence of an EV, but I also know there is a huge downside to

this.  If there were a significant number of EV's on the rode I believe 
there would be a lot more accidents involving pedestrians and
bicyclists.  I 
know that my ears are almost always first to alert me that a car is 
somewhere in the immediate vicinity.

>Your vehicle doesn't have cold start pollution, fill-up service station

>pollution, noise pollution (one of my favorites), etc.


_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963



--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> 
> I have an analog ammeter (Westach brand) connected across the
> 500 amp shunt. When I set up the regen on my Zapi sem-3 controller
> (which is currently set for minimum regen) am I going to kill the
> ammeter?

No, you won't hurt it at all. You're still within the meter's normal
voltage and current ratings. Analog meters have mechanical stops at each
end. The pointer will just bump against the stop.

If you look closely, there may be a zero adjustment screw. If you like,
you can turn it to shift everything down by 100a (so 0 becomes -100a,
100a becomes 0a, 200a becomes 100a, etc.). You lose 100a off the top,
but can indicate up to -100a of regen or charging current.

> Will a bridge rectifier work to keep the ammeter showing positive or
> do diodes require higher voltage than the 50 mv shunt will provide?

The latter. The diodes don't even begin to conduct at 50mv.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Though it's true that many people are not actually interested in
learning the facts, the mythbusting site/document would be very helpful.
More than a few have been done, but few have been authoritatively
footnoted. It would be a good project for "someone other than me"... The
perfect one would have different versions for different people.

When you do encounter someone who is interested in learning, having
numbers and sources (other than "some web site I saw") to back up your
arguments really helps. Different types of people respond to different
types of information. It helps to have all the bases covered. The
alternative is to wait until all the knuckleheads die off and hope their
kids, if they unfortunately have any, are better informed or less
intellectually lazy.

- GT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2002 8:40 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Responding to EV Naysayers
> 
> 
> Dear Folks:
> 
> Well, the charger's installed and certified. At some point 
> Toyota will be releasing our new RAV4. Woo Hoo! This will be 
> our second EV, and we're currently in the process of dumping 
> our gas ICE vehicles. I'm looking for a diesel pickup for the 
> occasional long trips or work hauling. We'll be burning 
> biodiesel for infrequent ICE usage. Well on schedule for our 
> planned independence on fossil fuel for our transportation needs.
> 
> Only one problem left: Mindless friends constantly parroting 
> the anti-EV propaganda they pick up from the media. You know 
> the type. They say things like, "Those solar panels you 
> bought will take years to pay for themselves". (Gee, good 
> thing they have a TWENTY-FIVE YEAR warranty.) Or, my personal 
> favorite: "EV's pollute just as much as gas cars, but the 
> pollution is located at the power plant". I then point at my 
> solar panels...and sigh.
> 
> But it's all becoming so, "If I have to explain it, you 
> simply won't understand. I think Dabney Coleman put it best 
> when he said, "The more intelligent you are, the less TV you watch".
> 
> Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm 
> looking for a point-by-point refutation of the most common 
> anti-EV myths that we all know so well.
> 
> I'd like to print multiple copies to hand out in response to 
> the naysayers blather, so I don't have to waste more of MY 
> time explaining things they won't understand anyway.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> J. Marvin Campbell
> Culver City, CA
> 1992 Soleq EVcort
> 2002 RAV4 EV
> 
> The oil companies may run our government, but we don't have 
> to buy their product.
> 

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We want to put 144V through the Sevcon 128V-12V Converter.  Has anybody
tried this?
Would it fry the converter, or just not use the whole 144V of input?

Thanks,

Stan and Johanna.




----- Original Message -----
From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 10:31 AM
Subject: EV digest 2446


>
>     EV Digest 2446
>
> Topics covered in this issue include:
>
>   1) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
> by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   2) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
> by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   3) Re: Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   4) De-Ox, was : Burning up L6-30 Connectors?
> by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   5) EVLN(JOBS: Hybrid Manager, Sales)-long
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   6) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
> by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   7) EVLN(Interfaith group crusades hybrid 'pollution-lite')
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   8) EVLN(4 electric car manufacturers @ Seoul Motor Show)
> by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   9) Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
> by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  10) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
> by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  11) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
> by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  12) Question about ammeter with regen
> by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  13) Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
> by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  14) Renault LeCar parts
> by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  15) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  16) Re: Surplus aircraft nicads
> by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  17) Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
> by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> The way the Sparrow is setup, IF I could wedge in a 9.25" tall cell,
> it would be literally wedged in. NO space above the fill cap at all.

>From the pictures, it looks like the vent cap is the highest part. I
suppose you could trim it, or replace it with something a bit shorter.

But the real problem with these cells is that they change the basic
system voltage. Thus, the shorter 25ah cells look like a better choice.

> So, the question becomes. how much of the theoretical capacity can
> you actually GET out of NiCd cells?  If I can count on being able
> to actually get 7KWH out of such a pack, it becomes a useful
> possibility.

Battery specs all lie. You have to get some and actually test them for
yourself. Maybe get 10 cells, to make a 12v battery. Then even if you
don't wind up using them in the Sparrow, it's a useful battery for other
purposes.
 
>>> 2) Do NiCd play nicely in parallel?

Since there is almost no voltage sag with load or state of charge,
parallel nicads don't share the load current very well. One is likely to
deliver most of the load current until it is nearly dead, then the other
one delivers more current until it is dead, too. Thus, parallel strings
won't necessarily be at the same state of charge. You can still get the
total amphour capacity out of the pair, though, because these nicads are
not bothered as much by deep discharges as lead-acid.

The differences in state of charge become a problem when you charge
them. Since they started at different states of charge, they won't reach
full at the same time. Most nicad charging algorithms look for a voltage
peak or an actual voltage drop to indicate full charge. This peak can be
hidden when charging in parallel.

Charge voltage is affected by temperature, and nicads get hot when
charging. So the other problem with charging in parallel is that one
cell can be hotter than the other, so it hogs the charging current,
which makes it get still hotter, etc. Thermal runaway.

> Also this once again brings up the question of series/parallel strings.
> Is it better to have 2 strings of 156v?
> Or 1 string of buddy pairs?

I would keep them as two separate strings. Parallel them for driving,
and charge them separately.
 
> How tolerant are NiCd's of over charging?

The floodeds are pretty tolerant, but they use water and get hot.

> How tolerant of 100% DOD?

Again, pretty good. Better than just about any other rechargeable
battery chemistry.

> Operating Temperature?

Low temperatures are fine. But you have to watch out for high
temperatures. You won't need battery box heaters any more, but may well
need a battery box cooling system.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re: EVLN(Otay Ranch will nEV around the community)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
 informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
 --- {EVangel}
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20021116-9999_6m16cvcar.html
Electric cars get tryout in Otay Ranch
By Amy Oakes UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER November 16, 2002

CHULA VISTA ? Elsa McCown always figured an electric car
would make her hectic life a little more manageable.

The mother of three recently got the chance to find out she
was right as part of a pilot project to test electric cars
in the Otay Ranch community. She used it to zip past lines
of cars to drop her kids off at school. She drove it to the
store and used it to run errands around the neighborhood.

She left her sport utility vehicle in the garage.

"It just made everything easier and quicker," said McCown,
who works from home. "It fulfilled every need that I wanted
one for."

McCown and 27 other program participants will return their
Neighborhood Electric Vehicles today as the 60-day project
ends.

More than half the participants plan to buy their cars, or a
similar version, said Tom Fulks, executive vice president of
Green Car Institute, which helped conduct the test program.

Green Car Institute monitored the participants' use of the
electric cars, built by Global Electric Motorcars, a
subsidiary of DaimlerChrysler. The institute plans to use
the information to promote the benefits of the vehicles in
other communities.

"Clearly this is aimed at sales," Fulks said. "But I can't
think of a better way to demonstrate the vehicles than
through these projects."

Preliminary research showed that when participants could
choose between their own vehicles and the electric cars,
they picked the electric ones 89 percent of the time, Fulks
said. Of those trips, almost half were for "business" or
"delivery."

Fulks said the average round trip was about 41/2 miles. By
the end of the program, he said, the participants had
collectively traveled more than 2,000 miles.

"I was hoping people would use them a lot," Fulks said. "But
I didn't think it would be this much."

Researchers will meet with participants to talk about their
experiences and clarify some of the findings. Fulks said
they will return to Otay Ranch Dec. 7 for another
demonstration and plan to do similar test programs in other
San Diego communities.

The program also was sponsored by the city of Chula Vista,
Global Electric Motorcars and Mobility Lab, a nonprofit
design company. They selected Otay Ranch as a test site
because the 5,300-acre community was designed with walking
paths and access for electric cars.

Residents had to apply for the program. To qualify, they had
to live and work within the two neighborhoods of Otay Ranch.
They also had to make at least one trip each day in their
electric cars and keep a diary of their travels.

The only cost for participants was the recharging of their
vehicles, which are powered by 72-volt motors and packs of
six industrial 12-volt batteries. Typically, it took about
eight hours with a 110-volt outlet for a full recharge. The
cars can travel up to 35 miles on a full charge.

Program participant Doug Brooks said it was fun trying to
incorporate the electric car into his busy life. He said he
took his kids to the park and used the car to "joy-ride
around the Otay Ranch."

Unfortunately, the top speed for the cars is 25 mph. Brooks
said it made for some uncomfortable situations while driving
on the main streets.

"I had some people on my tail," he said.

Amy Oakes: (619) 498-6633; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-





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EVLN(Oil/Coal funds OSU world speed EV)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
 informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
 --- {EVangel}
http://louisville.bizjournals.com/louisville/stories/2002/11/18/daily18.html
14:44 EST Tuesday
Ashland, Ohio State team up on high-speed electric vehicle

A subsidiary of Covington, Ky.-based Ashland Inc. 
has joined with Ohio State University's Center for
Automotive Research and Intelligent Transportation in an
attempt to beat the world speed record for electric
vehicles.

Ashland Specialty Chemical Co. and the university's center
already have designed a vehicle that has beaten the record
for student- designed vehicles, and the partnership has come
within 5 mph of the world speed record at the Bonneville
Salt Flats in Wendover, Utah.

The vehicle, dubbed the Buckeye Bullet, clocked in at 241
mph.

Ashland's contribution to the project was $20,000 in
materials and more than 300 professional hours, according to
a news release. The car's body and parts are infused with
Ashland's Specialty Chemical's epoxy resins, making them
strong yet light, the release said. A third resin is being
used to resist the heat of the vehicle's battery.

Ashland Inc. is an industrial conglomerate with businesses
in the oil refining, specialty chemical and highway
construction industries.
-





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EVLN(Santa Rosa Zap holiday shop emerges after bankruptcy)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
 informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
 --- {EVangel}
http://www.pressdemo.com/business/news/21zapatistas_e1.html
Zap sets up Santa Rosa holiday shop after emerging from bankruptcy
November 21, 2002 By RAYNE WOLFE THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Sebastopol electric-vehicle maker Zap, which emerged from
bankruptcy in June, has launched a Christmas store at Fourth
and B streets in Santa Rosa.

"Holiday sales are an important part of our comeback
strategy," said Steve Schneider, the new chief executive
officer of two weeks tenure, whose company has gone from 120
employees one year ago to 30 employees today.

Just across the street from the entrance to Santa Rosa
Plaza, Zap has set up shop in the vacant office building
that once housed Internet service provider Sonic.net. The
store carries Zap scooters, toys and appliances.

Zap, which sought bankruptcy protection in March under the
weight of debt and slowing sales, is introducing a new
Italian electric car this year called the Teener. Retailing
for $8,995 and seating two, the car can travel up to 50
miles between charges at a maximum of 25 mph.

In a separate report Wednesday, Zap said sales for its third
quarter ending Sept. 30 rose to $2 million, up from $678,000
in the same quarter last year. Zap, whose stock is publicly
traded, closed Wednesday at $1.70, up 10 cents.
-





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EVLN(Look Ma, Ford's bamboo EV 500+-piece kit)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
 informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
 --- {EVangel}
http://iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=132&art_id=iol1037611631460F635&set_id=4
[images]
KIT CAR GOES RETROFUTURISTIC: Well, that's what its
designer, the head honcho at Ford Design, tells us. This is
the Ma, no relation to the Ka, and it's called a work of
art.

Look! Ma. By Ford, the car has no welds?

November 18 2002 at 11:27AM

LOS ANGELES ? Ford's vice-president of design, J Mays, is
showing his latest concept at the Museum of Contemporary Art
here as part of an exhibit dedicated to his work. The
exhibit is called Retrofuturism: The Car Design of J Mays.

The vehicle is called Ma, named for the Asian philosophy of
"the space between" that refers to a kind of threshold where
two concepts exist in a mutually beneficial relationship. As
a car, the Ma represents the same idea, occupying a space
between emotional and rational, art and science.

It also looks like it can't make up its mind whether to be a
boat or a kart. Mays, however, is definitive about his
creation:

"The Ma, with its architectural, minimalist appearance,
poses what an automotive aesthetic might look like in the
future," said Mays. "This car is hard to pin down ? and
that's what the Ma is all about.

'This car is hard to pin down...

"It's about proposing solutions that are not obvious, that
are between our traditional visions for a car."

You don't get much more definitive than that.

The Ma - totally computer-designed, according to Ford, but
presumably guided by Mays - uses a futuristic combination of
materials: bamboo, aluminium and carbon fibre. The car has
no welds and is instead held together by 364 titanium
bolts.

Ford, though speaking of bamboo as if it had just been
invented, tells us helpfully that "it is a regenerative
grass that grows back every five years" and therefore
demonstrates Fords environmental responsibility.

Only a few parts are painted and the Ma has no hydraulic
fluids and none of the industrial adhesives typically used
in automobiles, making the car more than 96% recyclable.
Ford does not go into detail about the recyling, but perhaps
the bamboo can be reworked into patio chairs.  ?and that's
what the Ma is all about.' ? J Mays, designer.

The Ma uses a zero-emission, low-speed electric engine that,
Ford says, has virtually no environmental impact ? except
from the power stations that generate its electricity and
the batteries that must somehow be disposed of eventually.

However, the car could also be fitted with a small
conventional petrol engine.

The Ma, Ford says, is aimed at younger customers looking for
new interpretations of the automobile in "a low-slung,
aerodynamic wedge whose mid-engined balance conjures up
images of a two-seater, neighbourhood sports car".

The buyer gets to put it together, too. It comes as a
500+-piece kit, all ready for assembly. The museum exhibit
will show both kit and car.
.
"This would be a great hobby vehicle," said Mays. "You could
put it together in your garage at home with your son or
daughter."

The Moca show, which opened on Sunday and will run until
March 9, 2003, is the first comprehensive museum exhibition
devoted to the work of a single American automobile
designer.

A broad array of Mays' work will be featured, including
concept cars, development models, video footage, new
photography and original drawings.

Mays, since joining Ford in October 1997, has completed the
development of several models, including the 2002 Ford
Thunderbird, Ford Forty-Nine concept car and the Ford GT ?
all of which were inspired by classic models of the past.

SOAP BOX DERBY RACER?: Bamboo and aluminium have been
combined for this Mays creation.

BUILD IT WITH THE KIDS: it's not waterproof, it has wooden
seats and, we suspect, its crashworthyness is, well,
suspect. But its on show in Los Angeles as an automotive
design masterpiece. Go, as they say, figure... 
2002. All rights strictly reserved.  Independent Online is
a wholly owned subsidiary of Independent News & Media.
-






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