EV Digest 2455

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) OT: making Windows less suceptable to viruses
        by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: ZAP making an offer for Think, needs to hear about Tango
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
        by "john kangas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Sparrow battery heaters and MKII regulators
        by "Richard Millhouse" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: OT: Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by Peter Howell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: OT: making Windows less suceptable to viruses
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: Silent Running
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) CARB Workshop Dec 5th
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: Silent Running
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Silent Running
        by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) TH!NKing
        by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Silent Running
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: OT: Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) RE: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) OT RE: Silent Running
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Silent Running - road kill
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Amps Volts can Kostov take?
        by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) OT conversion of inverter.
        by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Re. Surplus Aircraft Nicads, a Caution!
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>Subject:         Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
>   Date:         Tue, 3 Dec 2002 13:45:20 -0500
>   From:         "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Hi All;
> Can somebody recommend a system, short of
>trashing the PC and going Mac, program that kills this shit, BEFORE it gets
>into your computer?? 

I'm pretty happy with WIN98Lite <http://www.litepc.com/index.html>
It's a custom installer that lets you install windows without many of
the parts that cause problems. If you want you can omit internet
explorer (it can be separated from the OS) or even omit the HTML engine
Basically Win98Lite gives you a lot more control over which Windows
features you install. In my experience fewer bells and whistles means
better reliability.
I also didn't install the windows scripting host so any malicious script
sent my way won't be able to run. I'm not sure if you can omit scripting
without WIN98lite.
I'm sure that there are people that use all these advanced features but
I've never noticed any problems. Of course I'm one of those luddites
that likes my e-mail as plain text......
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
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I think Peter said it best. I had all the same points.

Rick will likely weigh in with his statements.
I would not doubt that the Tango team has been knocking on
doors, seeking the funding they need to go into production. 

Going by the newswires, the products that ZAP has 'aquired'
have been finished products, that are ready to sell to a 
lower cost target market (sell 'em cheap, and sell 'em fast).

Remember, that ZAP is just getting out of bankruptcy (which
happened at the time of the .com die-off : their investments
got hit). One might think their bid might have been more of
a PR item than taken seriously. All they offered was stock
in a company coming out of bankruptcy.

IMHO: We all would like to see a cool EV like the Tango be
made available, but the market it would have been sold to,
has been redirected to wait for the fcvs that are being 
paraded around CA. 

Tango's price/performance puts it up with the T-zero. ACP 
hasn't 'sold' their EV as well as Tango has tried to. At 
that price range, even an ICE is a hard sell. Even harder 
with a cold call (unknown company, no TV ads, etc.). 

Hopefully it is not a waiting game. The Automaker funded
media telling the public to wait for Oil fueled h2 fcvs,
and the EV community waiting for the Tango to be produced.


' ____
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. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)

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What I'm thinking would be fun (probably won't get around to doing)
is to have a sound card play an engine sound, frequency proportional
to engine rpm, volume as a function of amps, and maybe some waveform
clipping as a function of temperature. Then I could fight noise, or
fight crime, with the twist of a knob.

I was having a similar thought, imagining it playing through a Waylandesque sound system. What kind of engine, though? Steam? Gas turbine? Weed whacker?
John (ducking back into my lurk-hole)

MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
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*IF* some one writes virus for Mac end result is the same as for PC.

Granted, not so many write it, this was not the point. The point was
*IF* a Mac catch one, it's just as vulnerable as PC. I have nothing
against Macs or Mac users, and am not in the mood to debate this. 
Mac addicts won't understand or agree anyway, Macs will always be 
the best platform for them no matter what. Just like EV naysayers 
stick to their opinion about EVs. It is perfectly fine with me, and
let's leave it at that, can we?

And please, this is really OT.


Paul G wrote:
> Bob wrote:
> >>Can somebody recommend a system, short of
> >>  trashing the PC and going Mac,
> Victor wrote:
> >The same problem
> "Same problem"?? Not likely. I run only Mac and NO antivirus
> software. With less than 10% of the market (even though about 15% of
> online users, due to how well older Macs work) its not practical to
> spread viruses - to small percentage users can run the code (we run
> type "aapl" not "exe"). Its just kills the spreading speed :-)
> Neon
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--- Begin Message --- Boy, I must be getting old. I was about to have an "in my day" rant. Maybe I will anyway...

I grew up in a family of two adults and three children with a beetle. Oh yes, and at 6'3" I'm the runt of the litter. I was a bit blue at birth, but wouldn't fit into the incubator.

I guess kids today just don't fold like we used to. :-)

At 02:58 PM 11/25/2002 -0600, you wrote:
On Mon, 2002-11-25 at 14:48, Roger Stockton wrote:
> This means that when I have company (such as the children's
> grandparents), I can take only one passenger in addition to my family;
> not particularly convenient.  Unfortunately, every recent station wagon
> I have seen has a pair of bucket seats in the front rather than a bench,
> reducing them to 5-passenger vehicles at best.  It is possible that
> there is still a Volvo wagon with the rear-facing jump seat, but cost
> becomes prohibitive.

Don't forget having to have more kids/seats for sharing "bus" duties
with other parents, pick up / delivery for "play dates" when the spouse
is not available to watch the kids, ......

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On 3 Dec 2002 at 21:56, Andrew wrote:

> I'm not sure if you can omit scripting
> without WIN98lite.

An unsupported freeware equivalent to 98Lite (must be applied on a fresh OS 
installation) is Revenge of Mozilla.  You can download it here:


It removes IE and Outlook Express, and replaces the Win98 shell with a Win95 
shell.  This eliminates a lot of security risks.

I've used ROM for some time now, with K-Meleon as my main browser and 
Pegasus for email.  I have no antivirus utility (except a run of F-prot now 
and then), and have never had virus problems.  But then I don't open email  
attachments I'm not expecting, either.

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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
'91 Solectria Force - '91 EVEscort - ''70 Elec-trak
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"Twenty years ago, one out of every six federal tax dollars was generated by 
corporation. That has now fallen to about one out of every 10."
                                -- Arianna Huffington, Salon Magazine
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all 
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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I suspect you need to be mostly concerned with deaf or blind folks
(comparable to cell phone users on the oblivious scale). They may be
used to "feeling" the low frequency stuff from the ICE.

My ideal would be to push a button (or possibly come on automatically in
reverse) and play the famous Bugs Bunny in the movie theatre clip,
"'scuse me, paddon me, paddon me, 'scuse me"

Or maybe something more serious, like a rooster cock-a-doodle-dooing.

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[ref http://groups.yahoo.com/group/think_ev/message/1784 ]

The zero EV demand needs to be addressed at the workshop.
The workshop was slated for both the 5th and the 6th, but
now if CARB can run through all the speakers by 5pm 12/5
they will end early.

Info http://www.arb.ca.gov/cgiJW/workshopEvents.exe

Folks, if you can make time, get your EV and butt up there
and remind them again, that they work for us the public,
not the Auto/Oil applied gov pressures they seem to be 
kowtowing to.

For non-CA EV drivers that are curious, they have a 
webcast  http://www.calepa.ca.gov/broadcast/

' ____
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)

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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- Begin Message ---
George Tylinski wrote:
> My ideal would be to push a button (or possibly come on 
> automatically in
> reverse) and play the famous Bugs Bunny in the movie theatre clip,
> "'scuse me, paddon me, paddon me, 'scuse me"
> Or maybe something more serious, like a rooster cock-a-doodle-dooing.

Hmmmm.  How about a lion roaring... elephant trumpeting...

<thinks some more> Bird calls from endangered species...
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Isn't it funny how one thing leads to another?

I put up solar panels on the garage two years ago- instead of buying a
Harley(?!?!) because I felt so guilty about running three refrigerators. You
see...I'm a brewer.

Then, right after I got that hot rod engine put in my big truck- a big
honkin' Chevy 350 VeeeAte...I went and got all wierd and started buying
electric cars...hmmm. Now I lust for things called "Blue Meanie" and

And as I continue my quest for freedom from fossil fuel I'm beginning to
feel guilty about, not the coolers- though I am still cringing over those-
but the propane I burn during the brewing process.

In terms of economy AND ecology, what do you think is the best way to  heat
fifteen gallons of water from 160 to <180 (preheated by our high falutin'
Bosch tankless heater/NG) and then boil said fifteen or so gallons of wort
for an hour or two?

Now I'm using propane. Guilt. Stinky. Lots of btu's

'Bout to convert to NG. Guilt-Lite. Not stinky, but low on btu's.

Some people brew with electric elements, but I don't think they're doing 12
gallon batches.

Also trying to find a solar (ammonia-based?) powered cooling system so I can
unplug those coolers.

Any energy gurus out there have ideas for a green-leaning brewer?

Or am I just taking this too far? (Call the family. Time for an
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Hello to All,

David Dymaxion wrote:

> Time for me to quit punching keys and start twisting wrenches.
> Actually, I have already been twisting wrenches, I recently got my
> garage workshop done and electrified (two 50 Amps plugs just waiting
> to charge an EV, and lights).

I'm loving this post already! David, I feel your excitement coming through the phone 
and jumping out of my computer. I hope your completed shop brings you as much pleasure 
mine has to me.

It was the Fall of '91 when I was building my backyard EV shop, with visions of having 
all finished someday with friends coming by with assorted EVs in need of a charge. I 
done all the wiring myself, of course, and to quote my certified electrician friend, 
really should have a clear PlexiGlas cover on that breaker panel, the wiring's so
'pretty'. I envisioned all the loads I might want to power up, and wired the place
accordingly...twin 50 amp 240vac outlets each wired with 6 gauge, two locations with
dedicated outdoor outlets with one at the shop driveway gate and one close to the shop
door, and lots more of 120vac outlets with dedicated 20 amp breakers. I fed the place 
beefy 2 gauge. I had also rewired the entire house, so there are even more outdoor EV
charging outlets on dedicated breakers...there's one at the backyard deck, that
coincidentally, is close enough to the shop driveway to serve as an extra EV socket, 
there's one out front at the main driveway for charging up EVs over there, too. Of 
my wife thinks I put them there for running Christmas lights :-) ...but, she know 
knows better.

Today, the Wayland EV Juice Bar (so named by Geoff Shepherd) regularly charges up the
Wayland EVs, but more importantly, it  is routinely visited by  all sorts of 
EVs....multiple Sparrows, three different electric Datsun pickups, an electrified 
Fiat, an
electric Prism, electric motorcycles, electric Vegi-vans, electric scooters, and too 
electric drag machines to list! The place really gets interesting when ragged EV drag
racers from all parts of the country show up for the Woodburn drags with the coolest
machines on the planet, and they're all 'sucking amps'.

>> I'm slowly converting my Porsche to electric power. I want to be able to throw as 
>> power as 20 to 28 Optimas can dish out at the motor, if I can...regular Waylandesque
>> posts to the EVDL about surprising gassers.

Yeah, now you're talking! It really is great sport.

> I hear the stock Kostov is not very robust.

Well, it is, and it isn't. If you run it under 'normal' EV loads, they're really just
fine. In fact, an 11 inch  Kostov requires less amperage to make the same torque as a
stock 9 inch ADC, so you end up hitting it with less current on average. Using a large
Kostov with a tranny and a regular 400-600 amp type of controller, I doubt you'd have 
reliability problems.

> Randy Holmquist sells a
> rewound, banded, and rebrushed Kostov for $1600.

Randy doesn't do anything in a less than robust and quality way...his craftsman-like
workmanship and the pride he takes in what he does is impressive. I'd think you'd be 
served by a motor he has either worked on himself, or had made to his specs.

> Warp sells what sounds like an indestructible "Kostov" (in quotes, it is so rebuilt
> it should probably be called something different), modified to go
> ~8500 rpm, with big GE brushes, rewound, etc. They put 1400 Amps
> through them in their dragster. They also have a racing warranty for
> 1 rebuild, no questions asked.

The good folks at NetGain and I had a good relationship and worked together as a team 
a while. I certainly won't try to take all the credit here, but I will say that I was
directly involved with the concept of hot-rodded Kostovs and other Warp motors made to
specs I outlined originally. I had toured the Warfield facility in Illinois and hand
picked coms., brush riggings, armature configurations, etc. and worked with them to 
up my Kostov. After all of our mods, my supped up Kosty made some serious power, and
running without a transmission and spinning directly into a Ford nine inch rear end 
at that time, 4:11 gears, it pushed White Zombie to a world record best ET of 13.1 
at 99+ mph for the 1/4 mile (with friend Rich Brown at the wheel as his birthday 
The Kosty held up for another year after that, but finally gave up the ghost at the
Woodburn drags when I melted the armature windings...damn, that 'Zilla can crank out 

I now run with two Warp 8 inch motors, models that I had helped to create. Even these
motors have been updated, so contacting NetGain might be a good idea to see how they've
tweaked them since when I was around.

I am no longer part of NetGain, but they have done much more in regards to further 
to the Kostov. I know they monitor this list, so hopefully they can send an email and 
details. Their current Warp version of the Kostov would make a killer street EV motor, 

> I like the interpoles on the Kostov, seems they handle high voltage
> and regen better than Advanced DC from what I've heard.

When my pack of Hawkers were at full power, I saw 260V at the motor terminals at speeds
just over 100 mph (after I had crossed the finish line and had kept my foot into a bit
longer)...absolutely no evidence of arcing at all.

> OK, so for the big question, do you racers think Randy's motor is up to 1000 Amps for
> maybe 13 seconds? How many amps could it handle for 60 seconds?

Ask Randy, and take his word, it's as good as gold, in my opinion.

> So the basic question is, is Randy's motor up to the punishment of
> racing? Or should I bite the bullet and get the Warp?

Both motors would probably work fine, the Warp version probably has more beefed up 
but Randy has more experience, I believe, when it comes to running it as a sep ex type.

 >Am I missing any alternatives?

Yes. You could also run twin motors, such as twin 8's or 9's. Running them in series 
give you huge off the line torque, and running them in series will also keep them very
happy at high voltages, as each motor sees half the delivered motor circuit voltage.
Though my car hasn't quite matched the best time it ran with the big single Kostov, the
real reason is because its now 5 year old battery pack has lost most of its power. 
its record run and after that day where Rich and I really baked the batteries, they 
made that kind of power again, it was all down hill. Just before the Kosty's armature
melted, the best ET's were slipping towards high 13's again. When I went to the twin 
but with everything else the same, the car ran mid 13s even with sagging batteries. I
later went to a lower rear end ratio of 4:54 and the launch was terrific, but the
batteries had continued to loose stamina, so the ET's never really improved. I feel 
with a fresh battery pack, or maybe even a heftier pack with more guts, the twin 8 
and other improvements will eventually get the car into the 12's. I ran 408V at the 
Woodburn, but that increase only helped keep the car in the 13's with the pack all but
done for these days...it's amazing to me, that I've been able to keep the times pretty
consistent with such a pooped-out pack...time for something new in the way of 

Otmar's 914 with twin 8's, 240V worth of Optimas, and the new killer 'Zilla runs low 
Rich Brown's  RX7 with twin 8's, contactor bypass, and a hefty pack of paralleled 
at  just 144V runs impressive mid-high 14's!  There's three cars that run twin 8 set 
all three in muscle car territory, so this is an alternative to a single big Kostov.

In any Event, it sounds like you're going to have a fun EV! Keep us all posted on which
way you go.

See Ya.......John Wayland
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From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:07:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: OT: RE: Other Rices' on List, from the Colonies
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On 3 Dec 2002 at 21:52, Peter Howell wrote:

> I grew up in a family of two adults and three children with a beetle.  Oh
> yes, and at 6'3" I'm the runt of the litter.

Yeah, this puzzles me too.  The family up the street from me had 8 kids, and 
they all managed somehow to ride in a normal-size Pontiac station wagon.  Of 
course this was in the days long before car seats were required for little 
kids; usually the smallest one rode on mom's lap (a practice I do NOT 

When I was in Italy a few years ago I saw much the same thing -- whole 
families -- ^big^ families -- stuffed into little Fiat Puntos and Pandas.  
If they needed more room for gear, they put it on the roof.  But unlike 
Americans they didn't seem to feel the need to take half the house along on 
a Sunday afternoon outing.

When I was in high school, I was on the speech team.  The parents drove us 
in bunches to competitions.  Usually they packed 4 kids across the back seat 
of their sedans and 2 more in the front, and drove for 45 minutes or so.  I 
rode like that quite often with a mom who drove a Rambler Classic.  (Don't 
yell at me about "not enough seat belts for 4 kids."  That car didn't have 
^any^ seat belts in the back seat.)

These days some people seem to think that they're mistreating the kids, and 
themselves, if they don't ride in a 3-ton box the size of a small mobile 
home for a 10-minute trip to baseball practice.  C'mon, what's a little 
discomfort for a few minutes, even an hour or two?  I think lots of 
Americans, especially the kids, are just spoiled.  

That said, some of the blame has to go to the automakers.  First, they 
created this sense of "need" in consumers with their advertising 

There's also the fact that laws now require child seats (don't get me wrong, 
these are good laws), which don't allow much flexibility in placement.  This 
has been and will continue to be a problem for 2-place EVs.  Several people 
have mentioned the Honda EV+ as much superior to the EV1 in this regard.  
(Too bad one can't get either vehicle any more.)

If the automakers were sensible, they could design in much better 
accomodations for little kids and their special restraints.  Look at the 
Fiat Multipla for an example of a quirky but efficient and interesting 
design for families.  But don't look for anything of the sort from Detroit --
 that might cut into their sales of highly profitable big vehicles.  

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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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