EV Digest 2453

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Parallel strings or buddy pairs?
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Charger standards
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: EVLN(GM crunches Voltrod, McCollister eyes RAV4 EV)
        by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: EVLN(GM crunches Voltrod, McCollister eyes RAV4 EV)
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: Electric vehicles are not dead.
        by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: EV List Weirdness
        by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: EV digest 2449
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Evercel MB80
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) ZAP making an offer for Think, needs to hear about Tango
        by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: EVs - how to charge without a private garage
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Potentially incredibly cool device for sale
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Sparrow battery heaters and MKII regulators
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: ZAP making an offer for Think, needs to hear about Tango
        by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Sparrow battery heaters and MKII regulators
        by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Silent Running, an' OT stuff, a bit.
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Silent Running, an' OT stuff, a bit.
        by Adam Kuehn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: EV digest 2451
        by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
        by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: Silent Running, an' OT stuff, a bit.
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 21) Re: Silent Running, an' OT stuff, a bit.
        by "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: EVLN(Repercussions from Ford's EV abandonment)
        by "Prasad" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Evercell MB80 picture
        by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Re: Evercell MB80 picture
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Re: Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Re: Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Dec 2002 at 13:49, Phil Bardsley wrote:

> Should I configure the pack as 2
> parallel strings, or set up one string of 12 pairs?

I say "both."

Connect them in two strings, and parallel the strings.  Then, add small-
gauge wires, possibly fused, to "buddy pair" the equivalent batteries in the 
strings.  This allows the advantages of buddy-pairing, such as lower battery 
regulator count (if you use them), and improves charge balance between the 
strings. 

However, if one battery gets a bad cell, the small-diameter wire paralleling 
it with another one in the other string warns you of the problem because it 
gets warm or hot, or blows the fuse (check them periodically).  

Without the cross-wires, should one of the batteries develop a weak cell, 
the higher voltage string will constantly discharge itself into the other, 
running itself down and overcharging the lower voltage string's good 
batteries.  


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
posted
[ref http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/32848 ]

Alan,

I suggest you see http://geocities.com/evcharging and I that
you look at some factors local to your part of Georgia.

Twist lock connectors like L6-30 should never be used.  If
the vehicle moves (earthquake in CA, or driver forgets to
unplug, etc.), the twist lock stays and the ripped apart
live wires tangle.

Straight blade connectors like the 5-20, and the 14-50 can
be used. But some hosts would be liability concerned of
the 14-50 (208VAC).

A standard 120VAC 20amp built in gfi duplex receptacle
should be part of any public EV charging installation, for
nEVs and conversions to use.

But there are few production EVs available that can charge
on a level 1, 1kw 120VAC 20amp 5-20 outlet. So, a level 2
6kw source will need to be provided.

Installing a regular 14-50 and 5-20 would be the easiest and
least costly. This would similar to using the power at an RV
park. But because of the fore mentioned liability concerns, a
charging head is installed instead of a 14-50 40amp outlet.

Installing a 5-20 and an AVCON would provide power to all
EVS (inductive EVs would carry their charger and AVCON
adaptor).

An AVCON powerpak charging head (link on the above site) is
currently priced about $400. The TAL (small paddle
inductive) costs over $2000. By the way, the TAL's small
paddle work fine with large paddle EVs.

If done correctly the correct charging is installed in a 
contiguous route without wasting installation funds on 
equipment that isn't needed.  I would find out how far 
away is the nearest TAL and AVCON charging heads are.

LA has way too many EV charging spots, too close 
together. In Hollywood, some are across the street
from each other (a big waste of EV installation fund$).

EV charging locations should be in a contiguous route,
the locations should have 24 hour access, and hopefully
there is something to do where there. The SF Costco
only allows access during their business hours. This 
is not good for traveling EV drivers (how are they to
know the hours. Worse they show up and are locked out).

RAV4 EVs with their easy 90 mile range, only need a TAL
charging head every 80 miles. So installing a TAL at 
every EV charging spot is not needed, and would be a
waste of EV charging installation funds.

AVCON users (Rangers, Think Citys, and EVs that adapt to the
AVCON) have a range from 50 to 35 miles. So, AVCON charging
heads should be located every 30 miles for maximum access.

Scenarios:

-Host is liability concerned, there is already TAL chargers
 80 miles apart, and the host will provide only one parking
 spot near a wall.

 Then install an AVCON powerpak and a 5-20 on the wall. The
 EV parking sign is mounted at a 5 foot height, and the
 charger and outlet is just below the sign. A front wheel
 cement block is installed 5 feet from the charger.  (this
 will put the sign in the driver's face, and the block keeps
 the huge SUVs from smashing the charging head).

-The host is liability concerned, there is no TAL chargers
 that meet the 80 mile range, and the host will provide
 three parking spots together in the back of the parkig
 lot.

 Then install an AVCON powerpak on one pole in front of the
 right parking spot. And a TAL charging head with a 5-20
 below it on another pole in front of the left parking spot.
 Each pole is 6 ft tall (2 feet in the ground) with the EV
 parking sign is mounted at a 5 foot height, and the charger
 and outlet is just below the sign. A front wheel cement
 block is installed 5 feet in front of each charger.  Each
 spot's lines are paint green, and the middle spot is
 diagonally marked with green lines to show the three spots
 are connected.

-The host want to go for the lowest cost, is not concerned
 liability, there is already TAL chargers 80 miles apart, and
 the host will provide only one parking spot in the rear
 near the power panel. The location was not marked
 previously as a parking spot, and the space will be
 parallel with the wall. The spot will not be used by
 delivery trucks.

 Then install an AVCON powerpak and a 5-20 on the wall. The
 EV parking sign is mounted at a 5 foot height, and the
 charger and outlet is just below the sign. The spot will
 have green painted lines to denote a special spot.

If you have any other EV charging questions let me know.

 -Bruce




=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Dec 01, 2002 at 09:09:18PM -0800, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> However, the car operates on 26 12-volt lead-acid batteries,
> which cost about $20,000 to replace.

$800 lead-acid batteries?  What, are they buying them from military
suppliers?

-- 
Alan Batie                   ______    alan.batie.org                Me
[EMAIL PROTECTED]               \    /    www.qrd.org         The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A    \  /     www.pgpi.com   The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9     \/      spamassassin.taint.org  NO SPAM!

    We've got all the youth we need, how about a fountain of smart?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alan Batie wrote:

$800 lead-acid batteries?  What, are they buying them from military
suppliers?
Back when my Civic EV was still equipped with 12 volt Delphi batteries from an EV1, I contacted an EV1 dealer in California about replacements. I was quoted $768 each for the Panasonic replacement units. Obviously, I didn't buy them. 26 would have cost me $20,000.

Thanks,


Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neat letter,

Personally, I think that most people who report on cars see electric's as
toys that don't have a prayer, so I don't expect you to get much in the way
of positive respons but let us know if anyone responds.

James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562

One if by LAN, two if by C. - Paul Revere, as told by John Karwoski


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Fw: Electric vehicles are not dead.


This is an email I sent to the Chronicle writer who said EVs were dead.
Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 3:49 PM
Subject: Electric vehicles are not dead.


> Electric vehicles are all but dead. Complicated and expensive fuel-cell
> technology is still a decade or two away from viability. So, for the
nonce,
> automakers see hybrids as the best way to meet tightening emissions
> regulations and consumer demands for improved fuel economy.
>
> I am sorry to disagree hybrids still run on gas and still pollute.
> I just finished the conversion of a 1997 Ford Aspire.  It has batteries
> below the floor and in the engine compartment.  Not a single inch of space
> was lost in the interior.  This is a conversion and not a ground up
design.
> If designed from the ground up it would be better.
> In 1998 a vehicle called the Sunrise went almost 400 miles in a Trip from
> Boston to New York City.  It was a ground up design and ran on Nickle
Metal
> Hydride batteries.
> A year later  Chrysler ran their Minivan (EPIC)  1200 miles in one day
> demonstrating quick charge technology.  That vehicle only had an 80 mile
> range.  The quick charge made the difference.
> Today you can buy a two seat Gem for 3700 dollars.  Great for around town.
> Costs about a penny per mile to run.
> I don't see anyone complaining about their Lithium ion powered cell phones
> or power books.  If us EVers had that technology ranges of 3 to 400 miles
> could  be had with those batteries in a car.  Even more with flywheel
> batteries or certain refillable batteries like Zinc air.  A small cart
like
> vehicle traveled 1000 miles in three days going 25mph around Alameda Naval
> airstation to demonstrate Zinc Air batteries. (1998)
> There is only one reason this propaganda about electric vehicles is
tauted.
> These vehicles are low maintainance.  Uncomplicated.  Durable.
Dependable.
> Worst of all these things make them unprofitable.  Look at the 20 systems
> that are needed to make an internal combustion vehicle work.  They all
> generate money for the car companies because they need to be replaced.
> The thing the car companies and oil companies fear most is Electric
vehicles
> and Photovotaic cells on the roof of your house.  Basically free energy.
> Lawrence Rhodes.....  San Francisco Home owner and electric vehicle
driver.
> 1997 Ford Aspire electric conversion.  Lectra Motorcycle, Laher cart and
and
> electric bicycle.
>

---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,

It seems that the list, at least from my end, is fixed, as I was bombarded with all the
emails I had not recieved, all at the same time, this morning. I also finally got the
original messages I had seen others repsonding to, that had me scratching my head.

My aplogies for my repeated 'sends'.

See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sunday, December 1, 2002 10:04 AM
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
> 
> 
> :
>> 
>> Well, the charger's installed and certified. At some point Toyota will be
>> releasing our new RAV4. Woo Hoo!
> 
> certified ?
> 
Yeah, certified. Before Toyota will even release your car you have to have
the charger installed, with proper permits from Building and Safety. If you
or you electrician install it, a subcontractor from Clean Fuel (Toyota's
charger contractor/installer) has to come and fondle your leads, say
something like, "Mmmm, hmm...mmm hmm...looks good to me", sign the paperwork
and you are thereby CERTIFIED by Clean Fuel/Toyota. (Is this a good
thing?...)

But where's m'damn car?!?

By the way- from my experience, Toyota is NOT trying very hard to sell this
car. Many, MANY hoops to jump through. At the same time they're practically
giving their ICE vehicles away (rebates, 0% financing, etc.)
> 

>> Anyone know of a source of anti-EV mythbusting info? I'm looking for a
>> point-by-point refutation of the most common anti-EV myths that we all
> know
>> so well.

I found one paper by Chip Gibbens from DC area EVAA- Debunking the Myths of
EV's and Smokestacks. Nice job. Very informative.
>> 
>> The oil companies may run our government, but we don't have to buy their
>> product , go Electric .
>> 
> How about that for the title ?
> Steve Clunn

Yeah, yeah. Since I came up with the first part it sounds PERFECT...to me:-0

J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City
1992 Soleq EVcort
2002 RAV4 EV (...but where's m'damn car?!?)

Looking up, the sun warming my face,
I smile at the power which moves me through space.
Clean rolling machine- no gasses I pass.
George Bush? Dick Cheney? You can BOTH kiss my *ss!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I actually received a description of the posts for the Evercel MB80, along with a picture of the battery. It looks like all intercell connections are accessible!
The terminal post is an 11 mm threaded stud with a 6mm thread in the center.
The stud gets epoxied almost flush with the top.An intercell connected is
secured from cell to cell with the 6mm screw.

I can email the picture to anyone who asks, I just don't have access to FTP right now, so I can't put it up on my site.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hi all,

According to a press release, ZAP/Voltage Vehicles is making a $13 million offer for Think from Ford. I'm thinking that money could be put to better use, such as, say, making the Tango a mass-produced reality? Rick?

http://www.zapworld.com/news/zapthink2.htm

Tim





_________________________________________________________________
Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing I used to do was to extend an extension cord to the car parked on
the street.  I had a system to keep the cord above pedestrian heads.
Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: EVs - how to charge without a private garage


> This can be a challenge, especially as rumor holds that private parking
> spaces in NYC rent for what houses rent for elsewhere.
>
> If you are a standardized worker with a defined work place, maybe could
> turn the scenario around and charge at work easier than at home? This
> would of course require negotiations with your employer to have an
> outdoor outlet installed for you and to work out payment for the
> electricity.
>
> It could also drive up the cost of the EV as might need to look at
> something like NiCads to get the needed range and to survive being
> parked at your house for a long weekend without being charged. Of course
> this also limits you ability to go much of anywhere on the weekends.
> Definitely a challenge.
>
>
> Randy Stern wrote:
> > I live in New York City in an apartment building. I do not own a
> > home with a garage, meaning I would have no means of plugging in
> > the EV as I'd be parking on the street.
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might this run a small go cart.  Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 9:35 PM
Subject: Potentially incredibly cool device for sale


> I quote from the ad:
>
> 'AeroViornment Inc AV SPC-2000 Solar Pump Controller (DC/AC inverter) for
> 1.5HP (1100W) 1 phase or 2.5HP (2000W) three phase motors'
>
> The SPC-2000 is capable of controlling 115, 208, or 230VAC single or three
> phase motors. It continuously monitors system performance and incorperats
a
> number of features for pump system protection including LEDs to indicate
> type of fault. It consists of a heavy duty 18"x12"x4.5" metal cabinet with
> internal plastic protection cover. These are rated 13A peak current and
> 9.5amp RMS current with a min speed of 30hz and a max speed of 69hz. It
has
> underload auto shutoff, overload auto shutff, and auto shutoff for full
> reservior. Input voltage 150V up to a max of 600VDC. Current input maximum
> is 8 amps. These are new with installation manuals, no warantee. 23 lbs.
>
> $149 each from Electronic Goldmine (www.goldmine-elec.com)
>
>
> Thought someone might be able to find something clever to do with this.
Not
> sure what, but something.
>
> S.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> It does seem to me that we are talking out of both sides of our
> mouths though if we claim that EV's decrease noise polution, but
> fail to mention this really only applies in parking lots, yet when
> it comes to safety issues we are quick to point out that in most
> everyday use the noise is about the same.

In general, new cars are all getting quieter. EVs are just on the quiet
side of normal. People will have to get used to quieter cars no matter
what.

EVs are quieter than the average car; but they are not quieter than the
quietest gasoline cars already being sold. Mainly, it's because the
quietest luxury cars have enormous amounts of padding, muffling, sound
absorbers, etc. to make them quiet. Most EVs do not have all this sound
deadening material (to save weight).

As for urban noise pollution, this is determined mainly by the noisiest
vehicles, not the quietest ones. A single loud truck, motorcycle, or car
will drown out a thousand regular cars. Who has not been disturbed when
trying to fall asleep by just one ultra-loud motorcycle, sports car, or
worn-out wreck with a bad muffler being raced through the deserted
streets at 2am?
--
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> 
> I've had several people ask for descriptions and pictures of how I
> installed the MKII regs and the battery heaters, so I've updated my Web
> page with the info:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/EV/MySparrow.htm

John,

I see what you mean about tight battery boxes. Awkwardly shaped, too!

Don't feel too bad about the wiring mess. It always sounds easy to run
"just a few wires" to each battery. And it always develops into a
tangled mess. (Been there, done that! :-)

However, one thing to watch out for; you've got full pack voltage
between these various wires. For your 156vdc system, you want to wire it
as if you would be connecting it to the 120vac line (which peaks at
170v). 

Things like normal automotive wire, speaker wire, telephone wire etc. do
not have sufficient insulation. If there is no UL (or equivalent safety
agency) marking on the wire, it usually means it has never been tested
for insulation voltage breakdown, temperature limits, abrasion
resistance, flammability, etc.

Some of your comments worried me (telephone wire, LEDs just held by the
leads). The LED wiring is a significant shock hazard, and if a short
occurs, the wiring could catch fire before a fuse in the Rudman
Regulators blows. Since almost everything around these wires burns, you
could have a serious fire if something goes wrong.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>According to a press release, ZAP/Voltage Vehicles is making a $13 million 
>offer for Think from Ford. I'm thinking that money could be put to better 
>use, such as, say, making the Tango a mass-produced reality? 

How do you figure that is a better use of their money?

The Think is almost ready for mass production with only a few bugs to be
worked out (if they haven't already).

It has been designed for mass production and I believe it's already
completed federal testing (could be wrong here).  

The Tango is an impressive vehicle but it is still basically a concept car.
It hasn't been designed to be economically mass produced.
Unless they are willing to sell-out(doubtfull) on some of the Tango's best
features (like the full roll cage) the Tango will cost 3-4 times as much to
produce as the Think(possibly even more).  

This means the final vehicle will cost 4 times as much, or more.  This will
cost you the vast majority of your potential market.

The Think is a low end EV which fits well with ZAP's apparent philosophy
(ZAP bikes are definitely low end).  The Tango is a high-end EV which would
probably cost as much produce as the EV-1 and will likely sell for a similar
price (current price for the Tango is about twice the hypothetical price of
the first generation EV-1)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- A) All the MKII's have 2A fuses. Any short in the LED wiring will blow the fuse before the wire overheats. (If the Green LED line gets opened, the fuse also blows.) The LED leads are coated with silicon caulk pretty thickly.
B) My use of standard 4 conductor phone wire, there are no conductors in a bundle with over 24v between them. Any higher differentials have to pass through 2 wire walls, and 2 4cond jackets. If any of these wires ever shorts, the wire is small enough to vaporize pretty much instantly. Being hot enough, long enough, to light something on fire is pretty unlikely.

At 10:39 AM 12/3/2002 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
However, one thing to watch out for; you've got full pack voltage
between these various wires. For your 156vdc system, you want to wire it
as if you would be connecting it to the 120vac line (which peaks at
170v).

Things like normal automotive wire, speaker wire, telephone wire etc. do
not have sufficient insulation. If there is no UL (or equivalent safety
agency) marking on the wire, it usually means it has never been tested
for insulation voltage breakdown, temperature limits, abrasion
resistance, flammability, etc.
--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
>> So... do you get pedestrians unexpectedly walking out in front of you?
>> Do you find you have to look out for them more than you would in an
>> ICE car?

[Warning, this post is likely to light John's fuse]

We have both a Toyota Prius and my Renault LeCar EV. The Prius is
absolutely silent when in "stealth" mode (i.e. when the gasoline engine
is off). We really do have to watch very carefully in parking lots when
starting off. People are accustomed to hearing the engine idle as a hint
that a car may move. With no engine noise, they will walk or stand right
in front of the car.

My LeCar EV has a Curtis 1231C controller. This model produces a faint
"eeeee" when you first start out at low current. It is such an unusual
noise for a car to make that people will look around, see the car move,
and then get out of the way. So, I actually like this sound -- I
consider it as my "pedestrian alert."

-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:

We have both a Toyota Prius and my Renault LeCar EV. The Prius is
absolutely silent when in "stealth" mode (i.e. when the gasoline engine
is off). We really do have to watch very carefully in parking lots when
starting off. People are accustomed to hearing the engine idle as a hint
that a car may move. With no engine noise, they will walk or stand right
in front of the car.
A good practice is to use your lights, even in the day. Most people respond to visual cues in a parking lot, as well as to the noise. Turning your lights on before moving tells most people what you're up to. If you are worried about the extra current draw, you can shut the lights off again when you are underway.

--

-Adam Kuehn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a "lack of noise issue" with my EV one time.

I was pulling into a parking space and the fellow who had just parked swung
his door open as I was pulling into the space next to him. I stopped the car
just in time. He was very apologetic and said he didn't hear the car coming.

Of course he should have looked before opening the door but it shows that
people have been conditioned to listen to ICEs running around and people use
the noise as a cue when they are taking in their surroundings.

Also in our neighborhood there are tons of kids running around. I've found
myself behind kids playing in the street who are completely oblivious to the
EV approaching. They maybe completely oblivious to gas cars as well. I use
my horn quite often in the neighborhood.

But some people do have a point about some of the newer gas cars being
quiet.  


*************************************************
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

144 Volt Ford Escort
GE Elec-Trak E10

Check out the cool electric scooters we have at
SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com



on 12/2/02 3:01 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

> From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 06:42:11 -0600
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Silent Running was(Re: Responding to EV Naysayers)
> 
> John Wrote:
> 
>> I believe Mike took a turn without signaling on this one.
> 
> 
> Sorry John, but it was your wrong turn this time.  I was indeed referring
> to outside noise not cabin noise.  I clearly remember this subject coming
> up on the EVDL several years ago, and someone referring to a test in which
> a number of cars were tested for overall noise in drive past testing, both
> at low speed and high speed.  Despite the inclusion of an electric vehicle
> in the test, the quietest car was not the EV, but a high dollar luxury
> sedan, (Lexus, Infinity, Mercedes, or some such.)  As I recall there was
> considerable disbelief on the list at the time.  I can't recall what EV was
> used in the test, but I would have expected something like an EV1 or
> Solectria.  Can anyone else recall this thread?  I have been trying to find
> it, but so far no luck.
> 
> FWIW, my Dodge TEVan was much noisier than my ICE Honda due to the large
> collection of fans it was equipped with.  (Two on the motor, one on the
> batteries, and one on the oil cooler.)
> 
> I will agree most conversions are very very quiet, but so far every OEM EV
> I have seen has been significantly louder.  When you also consider that
> much of the noise produced by a car these days is actually tire noise I
> really doubt this lack of an exhaust note is much of an issue.  I know when
> I am in a parking lot I can seldom hear any car beyond a few feet due to
> background noise, passing street traffic and so forth.
> 
> Thanks,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My neighborhood has had a crime wave, so I have been doing mobile
neighborhood watch, patrolling my neighborhood from 2 to 4 a.m. once
a week.

I was thinking how cool it would be to do this someday in my EV
conversion. I could cruise around in total silence, maybe even catch
some of the bad guys in the act...

I was trying to use my Jeep more, as it is pretty quiet, but have
evolved to using the 300 horsepower, 100+ dB Camaro! An algorithm has
evolved: less than 2000 rpm, neighbors rest assured; 3000 to 5000 rpm
full throttle, time to look at the windows and see what is going on!
One night we had 15 people and 5 cars surrounding the perps by the
time the police showed up -- many came out because of the roaring
exhaust.

What I'm thinking would be fun (probably won't get around to doing)
is to have a sound card play an engine sound, frequency proportional
to engine rpm, volume as a function of amps, and maybe some waveform
clipping as a function of temperature. Then I could fight noise, or
fight crime, with the twist of a knob.

--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As for urban noise pollution, this is determined mainly by the
> noisiest
> vehicles, not the quietest ones. A single loud truck, motorcycle,
> or car
> will drown out a thousand regular cars. Who has not been disturbed
> when
> trying to fall asleep by just one ultra-loud motorcycle, sports
> car, or
> worn-out wreck with a bad muffler being raced through the deserted
> streets at 2am?



=====


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm glad to hear someone else say this. I've always liked the Curtis whine. It sounds 
different than an ICE vehicle and people notice. My Tropcia has a whine although I 
believe it's the belts not the controllers. I like it. My daughter says is sounds like 
Rocket Rods in Disneyland. Lets hope the Tropcia is more reliable ;) I have to admit 
I'm guilty of hitting the throttle a bit when I pass people just attract attention. I 
do have to watch when backing out of parking spaces however. At a crawl it doesn't 
make any sound and I have had people startled seeing it move. I don't see it as a 
problem. A noisy car is not a substitute for paying attention while driving.

Steve


In a message dated 12/3/2002 2:36:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lee Hart 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>John Wayland wrote:
>>> So... do you get pedestrians unexpectedly walking out in front of you?
>>> Do you find you have to look out for them more than you would in an
>>> ICE car?
>
>[Warning, this post is likely to light John's fuse]
>
>We have both a Toyota Prius and my Renault LeCar EV. The Prius is
>absolutely silent when in "stealth" mode (i.e. when the gasoline engine
>is off). We really do have to watch very carefully in parking lots when
>starting off. People are accustomed to hearing the engine idle as a hint
>that a car may move. With no engine noise, they will walk or stand right
>in front of the car.
>
>My LeCar EV has a Curtis 1231C controller. This model produces a faint
>"eeeee" when you first start out at low current. It is such an unusual
>noise for a car to make that people will look around, see the car move,
>and then get out of the way. So, I actually like this sound -- I
>consider it as my "pedestrian alert."
>
>-- 
>Lee A. Hart        Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave. N.      Forget your perfect offering
>Sartell, MN 56377 USA   There is a crack in everything
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would consider the Dodge TEVan the 'Harley Davidson' of EV's.
The 4khz PWM frequency (2khz during regen) is so load that people actually
turn
their heads to see the 'spaceship' landing.
If I'm not loudly PWMing the motor, the battery box fans, controller/motor
fans are
so load it definitely gets people to notice something strange is coming
their way.
Most people look to confirm a car is coming their way, when I pass people
look
to see what passed them.
No beepers/chimes or reverse alarms required.....
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hmmm....not surprising that REVA will be available in the UK from next year. I heard a 
few cars have already been sent
to UK to elaborate testing. Should be interesting to see the results of the tests!!

Prasad

http://www.geocities.com/aquariangenius
http://members.fortunecity.com/aquariangenius
_____________________________________________________________________


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:08 AM
Subject: EVLN(Repercussions from Ford's EV abandonment)


EVLN(Repercussions from Ford's EV abandonment)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
 informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
 --- {EVangel}
http://www.news.scotsman.com/scotland.cfm?id=1271612002
City spends 60,000 on 'dead duck' cars
By SAM HALSTEAD

TRANSPORT chiefs are to spend 60,000 testing an electric
car in Edinburgh despite motor giants Ford pulling the plug
on the "green" vehicle.

Trials of the battery-powered Th!nk car are set to continue
in the Capital for nearly three years even though Ford has
abandoned the technology.

Critics today urged the city council to ditch the "dead
duck" car which will now never be produced on a mass scale.

But city transport chief Andrew Burns defended the trials as
worthwhile, insisting they would still provide valuable
lessons about how green technology could be used to help
clean up the Capital.

Ford, the world?s second-largest car manufacturer, recently
abandoned production of the Th!nk car after selling just
1000 vehicles worldwide.

Today, Councillor Allan Jackson, the city?s Tory transport
spokesman, said: "What is the point of throwing 60,000 at
something which has been abandoned? There are better ways to
spend 60,000. This is a dead duck. I think this is
ridiculous when production has stopped and the car factory
is for sale. This is an irresponsible use of taxpayers?
money."

The Capital was chosen along with London and European
centres such as Amsterdam and Rome to carry out trials of
the two-seater vehicles.

Edinburgh City Council was one of nine groups which agreed
to lease a total of ten cars in the city as part of the
trials which began in April. The Caledonian Brewery and the
Royal Bank of Scotland were among the other organisations to
support the scheme.

But in August, Ford announced it had ditched the car, and
instead had turned its attention to developing alternative
green motoring technology, including hybrid petrol-electric
vehicles and fuel cell cars.

Today the city?s transport leader, Councillor Andrew Burns,
said: "This is not a waste of money. Ford has decided to
focus on low-emission cars, hybrids which will use battery
and fuel-powered cells. These trials of the technology are
not going to be for nothing. The same technology will still
be used in the hybrid car.

"The question is: ?Do the Tories think low-emission cars are
not the answer??. We have taken a pragmatic approach. The
same technology will be used, but in a different body
shell."

A spokesman for Ford said today that the Th!nk ultimately
failed because it could not travel long distances, there was
not a short enough recharge time and there were not enough
recharge outlets established.

Now the company has decided to focus on developing fuel cell
and hybrid petrol-electric vehicles.

"We made the decision to invest in different technology. The
Th!nk was not the future of environmentally-friendly
motoring," said the spokesman.

The continuing trials won the support of the city?s Liberal
Democrats. Edinburgh?s Lib Dem transport spokesman
Councillor Fred Mackintosh said: "I think the trial should
be continued. 60,000 could fill a lot of potholes, but I
think we need to be a bit adventurous."

A spokesman for the Th!nk scheme said feedback from all ten
city-based groups involved had been very positive. He added:
"It is such a great car, very economical and easy to use."
-





=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I put the picture of the MB80 that John had with it's connections on
yahoo photos.

http://photos.yahoo.com/epenne

It should be in the lower right hand corner.

Eric

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a link to your personal photos.  I looked for the MB80, except in
"honeymoon", did not want pry to much :)
Chad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Penne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 10:25 AM
Subject: Evercell MB80 picture


> I put the picture of the MB80 that John had with it's connections on
> yahoo photos.
>
> http://photos.yahoo.com/epenne
>
> It should be in the lower right hand corner.
>
> Eric
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
  Hi All;

   Warning! There is a virus going on AGAIN. I just deloused the computer,
for the kletz, or whatever. If you got a attachment , from me. DON'T OPEN
IT! Trash it!! I'm sorry, if it crapped up your computer. Heads up on this
one. They are out there.Delete it. Can somebody recommend a system, short of
trashing the PC and going Mac, program that kills this shit, BEFORE it gets
into your computer?? I haven't sent out any attachments to the list!! Can't,
but it COULD, be me.

    Seeya

    Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 12:45, Bob Rice wrote:
>   Hi All;
> 
>    Warning! There is a virus going on AGAIN. I just deloused the
> computer, for the kletz, or whatever. If you got a attachment , from
> me. DON'T OPEN IT! Trash it!! I'm sorry, if it crapped up your
> computer. Heads up on this one. They are out there.Delete it. Can
> somebody recommend a system, short of trashing the PC and going Mac,

Linux  ;-) ;-)


>  program that kills this shit, BEFORE it gets into your computer?? I
> haven't sent out any attachments to the list!! Can't, but it COULD, be
> me.

When I was using Windows, and on my wife's Windows computer, I use(d)
McAffee.  It can be set to scan incoming email.  Works real good with
Outlook, and it can be set to automatically update its virus definition
files.  Never had a complaint - or virus.

Lonnie Borntreger
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use Norton Antivirus from McAffee.  It will automatically update your
virus definitions, and regularly warns me of  viral messages that come up on
the list.  I have been "healthy" for a long time.

Next time Norton warns me I will send along the message, usually I just
delete the email.

Chad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 10:51 AM
Subject: Re: Here we go AGAIN! WARNING!


> On Tue, 2002-12-03 at 12:45, Bob Rice wrote:
> >   Hi All;
> >
> >    Warning! There is a virus going on AGAIN. I just deloused the
> > computer, for the kletz, or whatever. If you got a attachment , from
> > me. DON'T OPEN IT! Trash it!! I'm sorry, if it crapped up your
> > computer. Heads up on this one. They are out there.Delete it. Can
> > somebody recommend a system, short of trashing the PC and going Mac,
>
> Linux  ;-) ;-)
>
>
> >  program that kills this shit, BEFORE it gets into your computer?? I
> > haven't sent out any attachments to the list!! Can't, but it COULD, be
> > me.
>
> When I was using Windows, and on my wife's Windows computer, I use(d)
> McAffee.  It can be set to scan incoming email.  Works real good with
> Outlook, and it can be set to automatically update its virus definition
> files.  Never had a complaint - or virus.
>
> Lonnie Borntreger
>
--- End Message ---

Reply via email to