EV Digest 2462

Topics covered in this issue include:

        by "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995
        by "Tony McCormick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Victor's PowerCheq Mystery SOLVED!!!!
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Hybrid HandyMan's Special
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: 1kW Hydrogen Fuel Cell $5995
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Victor's PowerCheq Mystery SOLVED!!!!
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) EVs on TVs
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) EVs on TVs
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: EVs on TVs
        by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) RE: bats "best power"
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: EVs on TVs
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) tranny removal in conversion
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: OT (But Energy and Beer Related)
        by josh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) RE: tranny removal in conversion
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 17) Re: tranny removal in conversion
        by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: tranny removal in conversion
        by "tgleeman2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Ok, I wasn't clear- RE: tranny removal in conversion
        by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: EVs on TVs
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Most of these new electronic meters are programmable.  They can "spin"
backwards, but this feature can be easily turned off (or set so that power
flow in or out both cause the meter to spin forwards!!)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 8:45 PM

> The PV spins the house meter back.
> I think- but I'm not sure and God knows I'm not going to ask any more
> questions of Edison- that the TOU is separate unto itself.
> If you charge after 9pm and before 12noon you get  .4 cents per kwh.
> Don't know what the rate is during peak. Probably about a dollar/kwh.
> I'm praying it doesn't affect the house baseline because we're already in
> the .23 cents per kwh  tier.
> But the Edison billing lady said, "Would you like that billed separately
> just add onto your present bill", so I'm assuming it remains separate.
> Regarding backing the TOU with PV- the TOU is one of those new electronic
> meters they can read from their truck out in the street. I've heard them
> cursed so I'm pretty sure they don't spin back.
> J. Marvin Campbell
> Culver City, CA
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:39:54 -0800
> >
> > Do you get credit on that line for the PV or do they just give you
credit on
> > the house line?  Can you back the TOU with your PV.  What I am looking
> > is getting credit at the 22 cent per kwh day rate and using at the .04
> > at night.  Lawrence Rhode
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>the TOU is one of those new electronic
>meters they can read from their truck out in the street. I've heard them
>cursed so I'm pretty sure they don't spin back.

Well, actually, they do spin backwards, but they don't ~count~ backwards.
These meters still use the spinning aluminum disc to tally power consumed,
but instead of being geared to dials, they use an optical sensor that
counts spots on the spinning disc. The counter doesn't care which direction
the disc is spinning, so, even worse than not counting down, the new meters
will actually cause your bill to be higher on a grid inertied system. PV
systems feeding the grid through these meters increase the bill by the
amount of power fed back into the utility as the meter spins "backwards".
You're getting charged for producing and feeding power to the utility!!!

Ain't modern technology wonderful?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence wrote:

> Sorry but after compressing the hydrogen it will be a very expensive
> fuel. Energy wise that is.  Might as well just compress air and run on
> that. 

Right. They're using 5000 PSI holding tanks for the compressed hydrogen, and the 
French are operating compressed air vehicles on 300 
Bar, which is slightly less.  

> The oil companies are just itching to get another hight profit
> fuel and hydrogen is very much like gasoline.

Yep. They choked that technology back in an attempt to first achieve full vertical 
integration. They want to keep people on the other 
side of a meter.

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--- Begin Message ---
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 11:51:23 -0500
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Subject: Re: EVs on TVs
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On 6 Dec 2002 at 22:46, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:

> So, is that 20 miles is really 15 miles if you want to
> retain what short cycle life a deep-cycle pack has ...

Nothing new here.  Almost every commercial EV offered in the US in any 
quantity, certainly from the Citicars on and probably back in the Detroit 
Electric days too, has advertised its absolute maximum range -- a figure 
that's essentially unobtainable by normal humans using the vehicle in normal 

Back in the early 1980s, before the Reagan administration cut their legs out 
from under them, the DOE promulgated rules that specified driving cycles to 
use for range testing.  These may not have been perfect, but at least were 
an attempt to provide a standard that would allow for realistic, repeatable 
figures to be quoted in advertising for an EV.

But unlike the fuel efficiency ratings for gassers, these rules were never 
given the force of law.  They remain optional, and they're almost entirely 

That's a pity, because part of the reason for users' repeated disappointment 
in many EVs has been that they consistently fail to live up to their 
manufacturers' claims for range. 

To succeed in the marketplace, EVs need, at minimum: 

        - Useful ^real^ range (50 miles minimum, I think)

        - Realistic statements to allow the user realistic expectations

        - Accurate "fuel gauge"

        - Reliable battery management that keeps the user from damaging the battery 
Otherwise it'll just be another verse of the old "EV Blues":  

        1. Person buys EV in a fit of green enthusiasm.

        2.  Finds he can't quite make his commute that's 2 miles short of its 
advertised range.

        3.  Finds other things to do with the car, not so sure now this was a smart 

        4.  Runs the pack dead repeatedly and ruins it.

        5.  Replaces it to the tune of $1000 or more.

        6.  Repeats steps 4 & 5 at least once.

        7.  Unwilling to spend yet another $1000 on batteries, puts the car up for 
sale, possibly after letting it sit in the garage for several years.  The ad 
reads  "Electric car for sale cheap, needs batteries."

The good news is that in recent years I've noticed that a few European EV 
prototypes are quoting "autonomy" figures - the radius from home that an EV 
can realistically negotiate. I don't know whether these reflect a standard, 
but I think they're a good idea.  They probably give rise to more modest 
user expectations.  IMO, it's better to promise a little and deliver a 
little more, than to promise the world and deliver a 7 mile radius of it.

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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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