EV Digest 2472

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) aha  vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay
        by "mechelaere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Less green for more green
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV (LONG)
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  7) Re: [EV1-CLUB] UNpopular Science
        by William Korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Blue Meanie
        by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Less green for more green
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) re: gobs of 15V 2A p.s. (can work on DC?)
        by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: Amps, Volts, AC, DC, ...
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: aha  vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Blue Meanie
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) open mind? (water fuel cell)
        by "Tom Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) nicad cells on ebay
        by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: nicad cells on ebay
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re:Very OT- Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Hybrid Cars Are Attracting a Broad Range of Americans
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) RE: Hybrid Cars Are Attracting a Broad Range of Americans
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by Matthew Muelver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Amps, Volts, AC, DC, ...
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Little trip to Berkeley.  Range calculation.
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Little trip to Berkeley.  Range calculation.
        by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) Is this really ugly? (was high dollar EV)
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 27) Beefing up a Neon to convert.
        by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 28) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 29) OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 30) from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
        by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 31) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
folks

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874532068&cat
egory=6737

greetings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well now.  Feeling a little stressed, John?

There's so much in your posts on this that begs a response.  Personal
opinions presented as unassailable fact, single examples used to "prove"
broad statements, etc.  I'm not taking the bait.  This will be my last
post on the subject.

I will pose a question, though, based on the following passage:

> > How would you do it better?
> 
> I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts, 
> design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non 
> engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common 
> sense...someone who had the position to oversee everything 
> the engineers tired to push through, someone who is in touch 
> with aesthetics, a sense of style, a sense of art, a sense of 
> practicality, a sense of value, a sense of the competitive 
> spirit, and a feel for what everyday folks want and 
> appreciate. I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded 
> rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and 
> designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free 
> reign...never let them talk to the public :-)

Now John, given the nature of this list, how many people do you think
you might have insulted?  Do you think the little smiley face accounts
for much when it's smack in the middle of a full-Wayland attack rant?
And what are the qualifications that give you any credibility whatsoever
in suggesting what engineers do or how they do it?

No one on this list will dispute that you have a wealth of knowledge and
experience to offer.  You're one of the major players in the EV
community.  Has it occurred to you that you do yourself and the entire
EV community a great disservice when you deliver your expertise in such
an ugly manner?

Chris

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great post, Damon!

We own a Prius as well as an EV, and I must admit, that we also get the
"do you have to plug it in?" question all the time. We answer that we
would *prefer* to plug it in, rather than go to a gas station!

My wife drives the Prius, and I drive the EV. As wonderful as the Prius
is, it is a difficult car to put gas in. First, the fuel filler door
tends to stick closed. It takes one person to pull the lever, and a
second person to pull it open with fingernails or credit card, etc. This
problem is due to a weak door spring and the string on the gas cap that
tends to snag on it and hold the door closed. Second, the gas cap is
recessed and difficult to get a good grip on. And, it must be on very
tight, or you get "loose gas cap" alarms. More often than not, *I* have
to go put gas in the prius. In return, my wife "fuels" the EV, which
just means a 10-second trip to the garage! :-)

damon henry wrote:
> They market this way because it is what their marketing research
> showed would work, and being an owner of one of these 'never have
> to plug it in' cars, I'm not sure that from a purely marketing
> strategy it isn't a good one.

Exactly. It *is* a good marketing strategy to take one of your
negatives, and brag about it as if it were a feature. "Never have to
plug it in" is better than having to admit "you can't plug it in -- even
though it is an electric car, you must burn gasoline."

Of course, the long-term effect is to sour people's minds. They'll
remember the last thing you said in your ads was a lie, and treat all
future statements as lies, too. Actually, haven't most people figured
out that almost *all* advertising is lies? :-)

> OT... If I were going to wage a war against America or some other
> western civiliation I would find a way to destroy their coffee supply
> first. Imagine the headaches and infighting that this would create.

There is a hilarious science fiction story about World War III starting
when German scientists secretly unleash a microbe that kills grape
plants, rendering all Frenchmen sober. The infuriated French think the
British did it, and create one to destroy tea plants. The British think
it's an Arab plot, and destroy coffee plants. America is brought into
the war when the Arabs in turn wipe out cocoa plants (there goes
chocolate and cocaine!).
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Dec 2002 at 0:51, Doug Martin wrote:

>    As for producing a $40,000 Metro ...

Just to set the record straight, the base price of a Solectria Force was 
around $30-32k for most of the years it was available.  It went a little 
higher, I think about $36k, before Solectria negotiated a glider deal with 
GM.  Prior to that they were buying complete Metros and pulling the 
powertrains.  Maybe at that time you could have added some options to get to 
$40k or more.


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV


>
> I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts, design, and
construction, be
> closely monitored by a non engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common
sense...someone
>
> ????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> John,
> I'll have to take offense to this statement.  I've worked with many
> technicians that thought they
> were much smarter than engineers, and as such should be paid the same
money.
> In some cases they were correct

Rod, you make a good point maybe, but I'll have to support John's statement
here 110% - most engineers think they are God's gift to their particular
specialty, but any good, hands-on techie can do a better job, without all
the hyperbole. In short, most engineers are overpaid idiots!

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/11/2002 10:03:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> In short, most engineers are overpaid idiots!


Being a highly educated and well compensated Engineer, I take great offense to this 
comment.

You always lose when you generalize comments
"All EV Drivers are pocket protector wearing nerds."
See what I mean.

Wallace
How may I assist you?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,

I'm curious as to why the energy use between the EV1
PbA and the EV1 NiMH is so different.  I wouldn't have
expected battery technology to make such a big
difference (48% increase?).

It's also curious that the RAV4-EV appears so
efficient, since it's a much heavier, boxier body and
chassis than the EV1.
It is an interesting comparison. I would point out that
Toyota is substantially more efficient, overall, during
charging than the EV1. The RAV4 basically runs the
the inductive charger flat out, or shuts off. The EV1
on the other hand, runs a less efficient inductive charger
much longer at low power levels (extra loss) during the
final part of the charging cycle. The EV1 also spends
more power overcharging and climatizing the batteries.

The EPA test cycle is also at relatively low driving
speeds, with a fair amount of deceleration where the
RAV4's superior regen braking efficiency helps out.
At the slower EPA certification speeds, aerodynamic
advantages of the EV1 are moot. Finally, I think the
RAV4 tires have lower rolling resistance than those
on the EV1, offsetting the RAV4's extra 400 lbs.
The EPA test cycle is also fairly short (like maybe
15 miles followed by recharge). The short distance
may amplify the end-of-charge-cycle power losses
of the EV1.

At 75 mph, the EV1 certainly compares better,
though as it's induction motor is better suited to
high speeds than the RAV4 motor. And then of
course the aerodynamics. Plus if you recharge
starting at a lower level (eg, 25%), the losses at
the end of the EV1 charge cycle are a smaller
factor.

/wk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Hi John,

A couple of questions for you:

1. As the proud owner of a Chevy Metro, I can say it is possibly one of the worst candidates for conversion. It has no room for batteries, very weak suspension and brakes, and I'm breaking CV joints with the 70 hp ICE. (Plus the total stock loading capacity is less than 700 pounds. Hopefully Solectria did some beefing up somewhere!) Your Datsun would be unobtainium to any converter of scale, so are there any production models out there today that you think would make a Blue Meanie-like conversion possible? Something with a strong transmission (or swappable to a better transmission), room in the engine compartment and rear, where no space would be visibly lost, and reasonably strong brakes and suspension. I'm not planning to get into the conversion business, but I'm intereseted in your opinion on that.

2. Is the Blue Meanie article available on the web? If not, can somebody with that issue of the mag scan and post? I don't get out much, so I probably won't get to see Meanie up close anytime soon, but would love to see the article.

Thanks.

Tim

_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't doubling the size of the Prius pack allow an 8 to 10 mile range at
about 25 mph?  Can the electric motor take that speed for that long?
Interesting idea to hack the Prius systems.  So far it is the only Hybrid
that can run on electric only.  It is actually the only candidate for this
treatment.  Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Vaughn-Perling" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 5:53 PM
Subject: RE: Less green for more green


> My counter argument to the "and you never have to plug it in" is the
> quip, "but wouldn't it be nice to be able to if you wanted to?"
>
> The plug-in hybrid is the car for the everyman.  "you never have to plug
> it in, but you can if you wan't to".
>
> That's ultimate freedom, just my humble opinion of course.
>
> My prediction?  The fellow who makes the aftermarket portable charger for
> the Prius that can handle 110 or 220 will make the next fortune in the EV
> marketplace.  The one after that will be the lady who figures out how to
> hack the chip to change the metrics of when and how the ICE kicks in.
>
> With 100K of em on the road already, there's a built in market.
>
> > Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:11:44 +0000
> > From: damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: Less green for more green
> >
> > >But I don't understand why they highlight 'that you
> > >never need to plug in' as a feature...
>
> > They market this way because it is what their marketing research showed
> > would work, and being an owner of one of these 'never have to plug it
> > in' cars, I'm not sure that from a purely marketing strategy it isn't a
good
> > one.  I have been asked the "do you have to plug it in" question many
> > times and people generally see not having to plug it in as a pleasant
> > surprise.  I then have to try to convince them how much nicer it would
> > be to have a plug-in hybrid.  This is usually when their eyes start to
> > gloss over and they start to have a hard time comprehending.  Perhaps it
> > is all the gas fumes they have inhaled over the years.  I tend to think
> > it is just the fact that for all their lives they have been going to the
> > gas station and can't comprehend something else.
>
> --
>       ' ____
>       ~/__|o\__
>  =)---'@----- @'
> http://www.SoCalEV.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if this is a duplicate; I think I origionally mailed it from the 
wrong email account.    

>
>>Steven Ciciora wrote:
><snip>
>
>>> There is a 0.33uF, 250V ac cap across the lines.
>>
>>If that capacitor is marked "X", "X1, or "X2" type and has the UL and CE
>>marks, then it is certified as being able to withstand some pretty
>>extreme overvoltage without shorting, exploding, catching fire, or doing
>>anything else dangerous no matter what the AC line voltage does. This
>>typically means it will withstand 1000 volts DC or more.
>
>They are X2 rated.  Good there.
>
>>
>>> Then through three inductors, some more caps, and a diode
>>> bridge. Then a 400VDC, 100uF cap.
>>
>>If the capacitor is 400vdc, then it's wired as a voltage doubler, not a
>>bridge. It won't work on DC. You won't hurt anything to try it, though.
>>
>
>Nope, it's wired as a bridge.  The filtered lines go directly to the 
>AC in side (squggly lines), and the 400V cap + goes to the + of the 
>bridge, etc.  
>
>>To have any chance of working on DC, set the supply for 240vac
>>operation. There is probably a jumper or switch or something. Now it
>>will work on DC, but it may require 200vdc or more to start, and 300vdc
>>for full output.
>
>No switch to select voltage.  Sticker says 100Vac to 240Vac in.
>
>>
>>> Also, I don't think I'd trust those fuses at DC, either.
>>
>>No, but there are ceramic fuses in the same size case that are DC rated.
>
>These internal fuses are soldered in.  I'd propose an external DC rated
>fuse, so there would be no need to crack open the case.
>
>>
>>> There are some small caps that I can only assume are for line
>>> filtering. For my own education (which is why I take things apart)
>>> I'd like to know what they do.
>>
>>Probably "Y", "Y1" or "Y2" type capacitors, from each side of the AC
>>input to ground. Their purpose is to filter out RF interference from the
>>switching supply, so it won't interfere with radios or TVs. They have
>>even higher voltage ratings that the X caps, since they have to
>>withstand as much as 6000 volts during a lightning strike on the AC
>>line.
>
>These say both X1 and Y2 on them.  It seems that you have seen power supplies
>before :-)
>
>Thanks for your comments.  Like I said, I opened this up to learn a few
>things.  Learn something new every day, that leaves 365 things a year, 
>minus the things I forget...
>
>Thanks again,
>
>- Steven Ciciora
>
>>
>>Thanks for the additional information!
>>-- 
>>Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
>>814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
>>Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
>>leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not side stepping the clutch and applying the Juice smoothly will allow rather
rapid transit with low drive train stresses.
When can I try???

Victor Tikhonov wrote:

> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> >         Then again you hanging onto the panic strap while sitting on 28 Yts
> > with no seatbelt, and just some pink poly insulation under your Butt
> > While I have the Tach over 8000 and still in first DOES qualify you for
> > some kinda Certification....
> >
> > I look forward to Wayland's Blue Meany with a real clutch....It's been a
> > while since I broke it.
>
> Hmmm, may be I should reconsider my certification...
>
> My racing clutch with double spring pressure plate will be OK, but
> CVs will probably go...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The WB may not like you converting this one.

----- Original Message -----
From: "mechelaere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 3:43 PM
Subject: aha vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay


> folks
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874532068&cat
> egory=6737
>
> greetings
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[ref http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/33284 ]

Tim,

I hope you cc'd John directly as he does get busy and may need 
a heads up. Until John POSTs on this, a simple web search 
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=Blue+Meanie+electric 
gives plenty of items.



=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now boys; play nice. It has always been easy to make fun of and pick on
those who didn't fit in and or agree with what we believe.
Just remember what your dear old Daddy told ya; if it looks like s@#t and
smells like s#@t chances are it is S@#T.
Until we get to see it and smell it perhaps we should not presume it to be
S%$T.
I don't have a lot of faith in this either but I would certainly buy one if
it were available. Wouldn't you?
Happy Holidays to all.
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quanity 100: 1.2v 34Ah flooded nicad cells
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1944316427

Don't claim to be a battery expert, so I have no idea if these are what
John? was looking for.

Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:29 PM 12/11/2002 -0600, Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
Quanity 100: 1.2v 34Ah flooded nicad cells
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1944316427

Don't claim to be a battery expert, so I have no idea if these are what
John? was looking for.
Nope, they are too tall to fit where a YT was. I was looking at the 24AH ones, and the SG Photo guy is about as responsive as a dead puppy.

--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV


> In a message dated 12/11/2002 10:03:22 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> > In short, most engineers are overpaid idiots!
>
>
> Being a highly educated and well compensated Engineer, I take great
offense to this comment.

Sorry, Wallace, no offense intended to you or anyone else. I should have
qualified my statement with the phrase
"that I have worked with".

In my line of work (electrical contracting), I see a lot of designs by
people with letters after their names that are over-priced and totally
unnecessary, and in some cases, won't even work correctly. Practical
experience in the chosen field should be a requirement to obtain a degree,
but isn't. Want examples? E-mail me off-list.

Joseph H. Strubhar

E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Web: http://www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/11/business/11PRIU.html 

Decent article, except we don't buy much oil from Saddam/Iraq (% of US
oil imports from Iraq fluctuated from 3-9% since 1997, zero from
1990-97).

Of course I'm not advocating wasting oil or any other resource
(bandwidth?). Just trying to set the record straight as far as equating
gasoline consumption with oil profits in Iraq. About 25% of our imports
are from the Persian Gulf currently. About 90% of our oil is imported.

- GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Dec 2002 at 7:03, Joseph H. Strubhar wrote:

> In short, most engineers are overpaid idiots!

With all due respect to Joseph and his experience -- I'm not in the same  
business -- I know several engineers, and not a one of them would meet this 
description. 

We've had some posts the last few days which I fear edge a little too close to 
flame bait, and I'm sorry to say this one just might.  Endless personal 
attacks and counterattacks have trashed the signal-to-noise ratio of many 
other internet mailing lists, and I don't want that to happen here. 

May I suggest that posters please take care not to "shoot from the hip"? 
Most already do, but if ^everyone^ did, the list would be more readable.  Just 
a little thought about how others might respond to the one's words, before 
hitting the "send" button, often leads one to tone things down a bit.

I find it's helpful to write what my emotions ^want^ to say, but not send it right 
away.  I usually save the finished post for an hour or two -- even overnight.  
By the time I come back to the computer, my reason has usually taken over. 
 I invariably edit the post extensively, usually turning down the heat 
considerably.

David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George Tylinski wrote:

> Of course I'm not advocating wasting oil or any other 
> resource (bandwidth?). Just trying to set the record straight 
> as far as equating gasoline consumption with oil profits in 
> Iraq. About 25% of our imports are from the Persian Gulf 
> currently. About 90% of our oil is imported.

Hi George,

Here's my take on this.  It's not about the profits Iraq makes on their
oil now, whether sold to us or anyone else.  It's about who gets a cut
of those profits in the future.

I'm thinking Dubya will pull any stunt to justify invading Iraq.  Once
Sadam is gone, what do you think are the chances that the new government
will be friendly to the US?  How do you think that friendly government
will treat US oil companies who want to "help" Iraq profit from their
substantial resources?  In that scenario, oil prices should stabilize or
even drop a bit, removing incentive to conserve.  And EVs will be a
harder sell.

It's well known in the oil industry that a US invasion could result in a
huge windfall.  Follow the money.

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wednesday, December 11, 2002, at 07:28 AM, Chris Tromley wrote:
Well now.  Feeling a little stressed, John?
Knowing John, I doubt he's stressed at all. From what I can see he's taking this topic light-heartedly, while many of the responders act as if the entire future of EVs hinges on this one discussion.

Now John, given the nature of this list, how many people do you think
you might have insulted? Do you think the little smiley face accounts
for much when it's smack in the middle of a full-Wayland attack rant?
And what are the qualifications that give you any credibility whatsoever
in suggesting what engineers do or how they do it?
Now Chris, given the nature of this list, how many people do you think YOU may have just insulted? What a hypocrite!

John laid out his qualifications, COMMON SENSE! Something that seems to have been severely lacking in the design of the Sunrise, the primary EV of this discussion. That thing is butt ugly. More power to anyone who can make a buck building them, but you'll never see such a monstrosity in my driveway. Nor in the mainstream driveways of America, even if it weren't so painfully slow its just too darn ugly.

No one on this list will dispute that you have a wealth of knowledge and
experience to offer. You're one of the major players in the EV
community. Has it occurred to you that you do yourself and the entire
EV community a great disservice when you deliver your expertise in such
an ugly manner?

Chris
It sounds to me like many here, including you Chris, resent John's role in the EV community, and only give him props because he is such a force unto himself. I see what John has been saying as insightful and constructive for those who would attempt to take an EV to any kind of production of scale.

Though I have my own ideas on the matter, I won't speculate on the list as to why John's opinions are so disliked. I will say however, that in my opinion there won't be an EV that's accepted by the common man until common sense is an integral part of its design and construction.

Later,

Matt
--
If you're reading this, chances are your either:
A. A Honda freak, just like me.
'01 M.C. Blue Insight 5 spd. #1898, 57.1 LMPG @ 24,900 mi.
B. A Mac Addict, just like me.
Dual-1GHz PowerMac G4, iBook 800MHz 12.1"
or
C. An EV freak, just like me!
:-)
<http://www.thewbstreetteam.com/click.php?id=5&memberID=387>
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When I'll replace my pack. Now due to that Powercheqs story, causing 
chronic undercharge, 8 Optimas are not allowing normal drive: 1 was 4V,
one - 6V (both replaced now), and 6 are still at 10 volts after 
discharge (one cell reversed in each battery).

I don't want to buy 6 new Optimas to fix this, so when I'm done with
my pack replacement, I'll let you know. For now this pack gets me
to work and back up hill where I live, so I'll leave it at that.

BTW, inverter has current change rate limitier, I should activate it
and call this parameter set "Rudman set" :-)

Victor

Rich Rudman wrote:
> 
> Not side stepping the clutch and applying the Juice smoothly will allow rather
> rapid transit with low drive train stresses.
> When can I try???
> 
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > >         Then again you hanging onto the panic strap while sitting on 28 Yts
> > > with no seatbelt, and just some pink poly insulation under your Butt
> > > While I have the Tach over 8000 and still in first DOES qualify you for
> > > some kinda Certification....
> > >
> > > I look forward to Wayland's Blue Meany with a real clutch....It's been a
> > > while since I broke it.
> >
> > Hmmm, may be I should reconsider my certification...
> >
> > My racing clutch with double spring pressure plate will be OK, but
> > CVs will probably go...
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--- Begin Message --- Since nobody seems to be interested in buying 13 Optima YT's for $1000, I'm going to break the pack up and sell individual batteries.
$80 each. Since shipping is way too expensive, I'll arrange to meet buyers in the Everett/Seattle area.
These are from my Sparrow and will no longer quite get me to work. Probably around 85% capacity left in them.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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The Aspire just got its first freeway trip of any distance.  San Francisco
to Berkeley.  The 120v pack was down to 124.6.  This is after 30.9 miles of
driving.  I kept the speed to no more than 55mph.  Mostly 45 due to traffic
and on the way back the Bay Bridge was jammed up.  Temperature around 60
with sun.  That seems like good numbers.  If I had been driving around the
city with hops onto the freeway I would have had a lower battery voltage for
sure.  These are 30 Delphi 8v batteries that charge on finish to around
132v.  After a half hour of rest the voltage was back to 125.3.  At this
rate If you consider a 120v pack having a range from 128 fully charged.  108
Dead and 118v being half full.  It seems that I used about 1/8th of the
pack.  At the same rate that makes 240 miles range.  Since that is obviously
wrong.  How would I use voltage to figure range?  Lawrence Rhodes....
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On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 14:17, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The Aspire just got its first freeway trip of any distance.  San Francisco
> to Berkeley.  The 120v pack was down to 124.6.  This is after 30.9 miles of
> driving.  I kept the speed to no more than 55mph.  Mostly 45 due to traffic
> and on the way back the Bay Bridge was jammed up.  Temperature around 60
> with sun.  That seems like good numbers.  If I had been driving around the
> city with hops onto the freeway I would have had a lower battery voltage for
> sure.  These are 30 Delphi 8v batteries that charge on finish to around
> 132v.  After a half hour of rest the voltage was back to 125.3.  At this
> rate If you consider a 120v pack having a range from 128 fully charged.  108
> Dead and 118v being half full.  It seems that I used about 1/8th of the
> pack.  At the same rate that makes 240 miles range.  Since that is obviously
> wrong.  How would I use voltage to figure range?  Lawrence Rhodes....
> 

That's easy, you don't.

A pack's voltage fluctuates due to a wide variety of reasons,
temperature, amp draw, SOC, etc.  The only way you could accurately
guess range (remaining capacity) would be to hold all factors except SOC
steady.  Pretty much impossible to do in an EV.

P.S. If your 120V pack only hits 132 on charge then you are not fully
charging it.  Should probably be up in the 140s somewhere. 
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I wanted to reply on this

Matthew Muelver wrote:
> 
> John laid out his qualifications, COMMON SENSE!  Something that seems
> to have been severely lacking in the design of the Sunrise, the primary

Until you see the car and decide for yourself, all you have is an 
opinion of a particular person and so his sense of beauty, ugliness 
and such. Doesn't matter how respected the person is, it is subjective
opinion by definition.

If each statement in John's email was started with "I think...", there
will be no flames. Many were stated as facts, so were a turnoff,
valid or not.
...

Saying "this or that car is ugly or beautiful" is the same as 
saying "this woman is ugly or beautiful" - it has no meaning because
both answers are right depending on personal taste and sense of
priorities. If you cannot _define_ or quantify something,
like ugliness, it will remain just an opinion you can't prove or
disprove. You don't have to agree with it, just respect it as any 
other opinion, no more no less. Let's leave it at that please.

> I will say however, that in
> my opinion there won't be an EV that's accepted by the common man until
> common sense is an integral part of its design and construction.
> 
> Later,
> 
> Matt

Don't hold your breath about common sense - it never paid bills.
If common sense, not next quarter profits, would rule designs, or
at least would be applied to some decent degree, we wouldn't have
so many empty SUVs on the roads.

Victor
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Listers,
        I have a 98 Dodge Neon that is paid off and have been toying with
the idea if converting. I've been told that it's not an ideal body to use
because I can't just stuff it with batteries to give it as long of a range
as possible. I would love to use a small truck but I need four seats for the
rug-rats. I would like to try to use more than 120v of 6v golf cart
batteries (my goal is 144v) but I'm not sure(along with others on the list
on the list that have advised me in the past) that my car could handle it.
Does anyone know of beefier suspension components that would readily install
in a Neon? Do I need to beef up the frame too? Thanks for any advice.

John David
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Matthew Muelver wrote:

> > Now John, given the nature of this list, how many people do 
> you think 
> > you might have insulted?  Do you think the little smiley 
> face accounts 
> > for much when it's smack in the middle of a full-Wayland 
> attack rant? 
> > And what are the qualifications that give you any credibility 
> > whatsoever in suggesting what engineers do or how they do it?
> 
> Now Chris, given the nature of this list, how many people do 
> you think 
> YOU may have just insulted?  What a hypocrite!

[Groan]

I really didn't want to continue this, but now you've suggested I've
insulted people.  If I have, I apologize, but I honestly don't know how.

The passage I excerpted was a ridiculous depiction of engineers who are
totally incapable of relating to the real world (as John defines it).
Taken only on its own, anyone would have dismissed it as an outrageous
joke, if rather politically incorrect.  But scattered elsewhere
throughout John's post were various comments about the Solectria
engineers specifically, and how they made idiotic (my term) decisions.
These comments fed seamlessly into the ridiculous depiction.

It's the application of an outrageous joke to real people that I find
insulting.  All we know is that Solectria's engineers displayed a work
in process that was pretty crude.  For all we know that may have been a
Marketing decision (and probably a good one - look at the press they
got).  John leapt to the conclusion that they were idiots based on what
he saw (in very degrading manner) and I called him on it.

One of the things that distinguishes a good engineer from other
professions is being able to separate fact from appearances and
assumptions.  John went ballistic based on appearances and his
assumptions, without knowing all the facts.

So that's why I said what I said.  I'm still mystified how that might
insult people.  Or how my statements amount to hypocrisy.  If you wish,
please contact me off-list to explain what I don't understand.

Again, if anyone was offended by my comments, I apologize.

> John laid out his qualifications, COMMON SENSE!  Something that seems 
> to have been severely lacking in the design of the Sunrise, 
> the primary 
> EV of this discussion.  That thing is butt ugly.  More power 
> to anyone 
> who can make a buck building them, but you'll never see such a 
> monstrosity in my driveway.  Nor in the mainstream driveways of 
> America, even if it weren't so painfully slow its just too darn ugly.

"Butt ugly", and "COMMON SENSE" are reflections of personal opinions,
not fact.  Do you not understand the difference?  There are plenty of
people who would call John's Insight "butt ugly".  Does that make it
true?  An engineer doesn't care what you or John want, only what the
project's target market wants.  Any engineer that rigidly asserts his
own opinions will not likely be an engineer for long.

In the case of the Sunrise, the target market is probably a small subset
of the Ford Taurus or upscale sedan market.  If you don't like it, don't
buy it.  Others will.  Is a Taurus a bad car because you don't like it?
Try to broaden your view a little.

As for performance, it may not be apparent to people who aren't
development engineers that a prototype, test mule, what-have-you can
have *many* configurations.  I can't tell you how many times a sales guy
has had a near stroke when seeing a prototype I'm working on.  They're
meant to prove concepts, to learn from, to try things out.  They're
frequently quite ugly and crude - there's no time to make them pretty.

To assume that Solectria would attempt to market the Sunrise in a form
similar to what John described is ridiculous.  They're not that stupid.
They're smart enough to know they didn't have the resources to bring all
the non-drive systems up to speed, so they made a proof-of-concept car
that a major automaker could run with.

> It sounds to me like many here, including you Chris, resent 
> John's role 
> in the EV community, and only give him props because he is 
> such a force 
> unto himself.  I see what John has been saying as insightful and 
> constructive for those who would attempt to take an EV to any kind of 
> production of scale.

No, overall I'd say John is a positive force in the EV community.  It's
his demeanor that makes an impression, sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Some (many?) people need to be beaten over the head before they'll see
the light and accept that EVs are an alternative.  I'm grateful John has
made so many converts.  But after a while the beating gets a little old.

John's abusive, sarcastic tirade against Jerry was completely
unwarranted, as were his comments about Solectria's engineers.  I'd like
to think EVers are better than that.  I can only imagine what John could
offer if he was less confrontational.  And FWIW, I'm not the only one
who feels this way about him.  I really don't mean this as a personal
attack, only as a reminder that John's position in the EV community
means his actions reflect on all of us.

> Though I have my own ideas on the matter, I won't speculate 
> on the list 
> as to why John's opinions are so disliked.

Another subtle distinction you apparently missed: for me personally,
it's not the opinions I dislike.  It's the coarse, self-serving manner
in which they're delivered.  Life's too short.

> I will say however, that in 
> my opinion there won't be an EV that's accepted by the common 
> man until 
> common sense is an integral part of its design and construction.

I agree completely, as long as we define "common sense" as satisfying
the needs of the target market.  Just don't pass judgment on it until
it's done.

Chris
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Andrew wrote:

> Here is a good article on the nuts and bolts of the new hydrogen
> economy.
> <http://www.sciencenews.org/20021012/bob11.asp>

And for an opposing view:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021223&s=rifkin


Vince
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According to http://www.msnbc.com/news/IRAQOIL_Front.asp>this (follow the
oil link), the u.s. has a reserve of 22.2 billion barrels of oil, and
consumes 8.1 million barrels a day.

So, if we take 22,200,000,000 (22 billion) and divide it by 8,100,000, we
should get the number of days of oil left.

And, let's see..

2,470 days of oil left.

Let's divide by 365

7.5 years.

Does anyone else find this a little alarming?

In 7.5 years, our entire economy will be dependant on a foreign resource.
Entirely.

Does anyone really think we will have a working hydrogen economy by then? EV
technology is ready to step in and fill the void now. Fuel cells still, last
I looked, require platinum, which is kind of rare.. not to mention all the
headaches involved with storing hydrogen, generating hydrogen, etc...

Okay, preaching to the choir again..

S.


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Hi to all,

I have been away from the list for a while, so I am sorry
I'm a little late on this.

Many, including myself, were enamoured by the **idea** of the 
Solectria Sunrise.  We "salivated" at the promise and the marketing 
material from Solectria. A dream come true...a ground up EV, made 
from sleek composites and advanced batteries with a immense range.

However, the reality is far more disappointing.  John has simply 
knocked an idea off its pedestal. He had an opinion based on actual experience with 
the car and...he expressed it. Anyone who took it as 
a personal insult, that just shows how internalized the *idea* of 
the Sunrise was...how personal it was.

I'll tell you something about John Wayland. I've rarely met anyone 
who is as esthetically aware, creative and inventive as this guy. 
When it comes to electric vehicles, his engineering abilities are 
top notch. It is not by accident that he has won acclaim for his 
cars and their sound systems. 

John's appraisal of the Solectria Sunrise was right on...as usual.

BFN,

Rich Brown
San Jose, CA
Dualin'7  NEDRA SC/E and SC/F record holder

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