EV Digest 2473

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Hybrid Cars Are Attracting a Broad Range of Americans
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
        by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV 05:28 Subject: RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV
 To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Well now.  Feeling a little stressed,
 John? There's so much in your posts on this that begs a response.  Personal
 opinions presented as unassailable fact,
 single examples used to "prove" broad statements,
 etc.  I'm not taking the bait.  This will be my last post on the subject. I
 will pose a question, though, based on the following passage: > > How would
 you do it better? > > I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's
 concepts, > design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non > engineer
 type, someone with, god forbid, common > sense...someone who had the position
 to oversee everything > the engineers tired to push through,
 someone who is in touch > with aesthetics, a sense of style, a sense of art,
 a sense of > practicality, a sense of value, a sense of the competitive
        by Keith Bierman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) ATV Type EV
        by "Peter Drewes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) RE: aha  vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay
        by "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Ge motor issue (was: Re: Selectria Sunrise? and stuff)
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Less green for more green
        by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Beefing up a Neon P II
        by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: aha  vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: [EV1-CLUB] UNpopular Science
        by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Another EV joins the CT 'Fleet"
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: aha  vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) OT: more substance, tone down the style
        by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by "Vince" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: gobs of 15V 2A p.s. (can work on DC?)
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) temp comp
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 23) RE: GEM driving (was: EVs on TVs)
        by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 24) Caps instead of batts
        by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 25) Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 26) EBEAA December 14 Meeting
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
George wrote:

> Decent article, except we don't buy much oil from Saddam/Iraq (% of US
> oil imports from Iraq fluctuated from 3-9% since 1997, zero from
> 1990-97).

That's merely due to the amount the U.S. purchases from Iraq as part of the 'Food for 
Oil' program. The money is held in escrow by the 
UN, who buys food and medicine which is dispersed to the Iraqi people. None of the 
money goes to the Iraqi government.

 
> About 90% of our oil is imported. 

According to Daniel Yergin, the chairman of Cambridge Energy Research Associates and 
the Pulitzer Prize-winning author of "The Prize: 
The Epic Quest for Oil, Money, and Power", the U.S. is currently importing 51% of it's 
oil, the same proportion of oil as we were importing 
20 years ago.

That's not to say it will not rise in the future, as it surely will if nothing else 
changes.


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- I just have to finally jump in...

I, too, am an engineer, although unlike Wallace, not properly compensated (in my opinion). However, I certainly took no offence as I've seen some engineers who were complete idiots. All professions have their share of idiots, though. Rather, I think most engineers tend to be more concerned with how something works rather than how it looks. There's usually someone else designing the looks, anyway.

Haven't seen a Sunrise in person, but in pictures, I like the looks. Not ugly to me. I think the Pontiac Aztec is the ugliest vehicle on the road today, but GM keeps selling them, so enough folks disagree with me to keep them moving. It will be the same with the Sunrise. Some will love it, some will hate it.

I have also always considered the Sunrise's produced to be at the proof-of-concept stage and not as finished as the production vehicle would be. Does anyone know how many were actually built? Had to be several just for the crash testing.

I'm very interested to see the product Jerry turns out. At about 100 per year, he'll be able to taylor quite a bit to what the customer wants, to make it less expensive or more expensive. I would like to see him able to mass produce these in a couple of years and put lots of them on the road.

Until the automakers put hundreds of thousands of EVs on the road, conversions will always be a viable alternative. Every conversion involves a lot of trade-offs, but the converter can choose whichever alternatives meet his/her needs. Also, conversions are labor intensive. That's one thing that made the Force so expensive. All hand converted. Still, they are much better vehicles than my TEVan, which originally sold for over $100K.

Conversions are only feasible if the driver/owner is doing the labor so it's not a cost, or if the glider is pulled off the line at the factory prior to installing ICE equipment, such is done with the RAV4 EV. As far as a vehicle for general consumption, I believe a ground up EV will always be more practical than a conversion.

Just my two milliwatts worth.

Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland (member EVA/DC)
1993 Dodge TEVan


_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Nope. You also need to understand what "reserve" means. It means the amount of oil we already know where to get it. Oil exploration doesn't just keep going until they've found all of it. They stop once the "reserve" (known fields) is a reasonably large number.
We've had 10-20 years of oil left for the past 40 years.

At 04:13 PM 12/11/2002 -0800, Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
According to http://www.msnbc.com/news/IRAQOIL_Front.asp>this (follow the
oil link), the u.s. has a reserve of 22.2 billion barrels of oil, and
consumes 8.1 million barrels a day.

So, if we take 22,200,000,000 (22 billion) and divide it by 8,100,000, we
should get the number of days of oil left.
And, let's see..
2,470 days of oil left.
Let's divide by 365
7.5 years.
Does anyone else find this a little alarming?

--
John G. Lussmyer      mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....		http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris wrote responding to John:
> 
> Well now.  Feeling a little stressed, John?
> 
> There's so much in your posts on this that begs a response.  Personal
> opinions presented as unassailable fact, single examples used to "prove"
> broad statements, etc.  I'm not taking the bait.  This will be my last
> post on the subject.
> 
> I will pose a question, though, based on the following passage:
> 
> > > How would you do it better?
> > 
> > I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts, 
> > design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non 
> > engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common 
> > sense...someone who had the position to oversee everything 
> > the engineers tired to push through, someone who is in touch 
> > with aesthetics, a sense of style, a sense of art, a sense of 
> 

Yes, keeping the engineers away is a great idea. Served the
CorbinMotors group very well with the Sparrow, didn't it?
:>

For an interesting discussion of design engineering vs. "technican"
strengths (and each has a lot to contribute) I suggest folks peek at
www.computer.org/computer/homepage/1002/random for a nice article by
Bob Colwell (formerly of Intel) nominally on debugging.



-- 
Keith H. Bierman    [EMAIL PROTECTED]| 
Sun Microsystems Laboratories            | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15 Network Circle UMPK 15-224            | 650-352-4432 voice+fax 
Menlo Park, California  94025            | sun internal 68207
<speaking for myself, not Sun*> Copyright 2002
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon wrote:

 
> In 7.5 years, our entire economy will be dependant on a foreign
> resource. Entirely.

Since half of our oil consumption is imported, and assuming the stated parameters, 
that number would be doubled to 15 years.  


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am trying to design an EV under the following specifications:

4 wheel drive (yes, probably motor for each wheel).
Top speed < 40 MPH (on dirt roads)
All terrain
Lithium batteries ok
Acceleration is not an issue (0-35 mph ~1 minute is fine)
Design vehicle weight ~1000 lb
Carrying capacity (above vehicle weight 2000 lbs, 3000 lbs desired)
Total range ~ 50 miles

I am looking at
ADVANCED DC #140-01-4005 Series Motor...3.8 HP x 4 geared on each wheel
CURTIS-PMC #1205-201 Motor Controller X 4
Everything under computer control (This part I should have covered)

Anyone had experience with this?
According to the different calculations, standard batteries should work
(pushing the weight boundary), Lithium saves weight (at a hefty cost I
realize). 35 mph > 50 miles.

Estimated weight (motor and controller 50 lbs, tire/rim/gearing 50 lbs) * 4
= 400 lbs
Frame/suspension    400 lbs
Batteries (lithium 200 lbs / standard ~400 lbs)
1000 - 1200 lbs

Motor on each wheel, because the entire wheel will be removed or stored
separately. I guess skid stearing will probably work also.

I am estimating (from kta-ev web site) about $10,000 for motors,
controllers, wiring (not frame/batteries/computers)

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John wrote:

> I have a 98 Dodge Neon that is paid off and have been toying with the
> idea if converting. I've been told that it's not an ideal body to use
> because I can't just stuff it with batteries to give it as long of a
> range as possible.

Yeah, the cab-forward design with the long wheelbase and short nose & rear make it 
difficult.  

Isn't Mike Chancey doing one of these ?


> I would love to use a small truck but I need four seats for the
> rug-rats. 

What about a small extended-cab truck with the small rear seat ?


Vince
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chad Peddy wrote:
> The WB may not like you converting this one.

But wouldn't it be just perfect for Batman to sneak up on villians with a
silent Batmobile?  Really, it OUGHT to have been electric to start with -
converting it would be an improvement.

-- 
Lesley Walker
Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
     --- James R. Healey, USA Today
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> And for an opposing view:
> 
> http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021223&s=rifkin
> 

from that article:
"Why generate electricity twice, first to produce electricity for the
process of electrolysis and then to produce power, heat and light by way
of a fuel cell? The reason is that electricity doesn't store."

Damn, my truck stopped working as soon as I read that.  And here I
thought that, using todays technology, electricity stores more readily,
safer, and more efficiently than hydrogen does.  Silly me.

Interesting dream, but that article isn't very accurate or realistic. 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
  Well, John did stir up the pot. I guess I should point out that most
  of the people who designed and productionized his Insight were
  Engineers. In my case, as an Engineer, I think I realized before
  getting out of school that I was never going to know it all and later,
  real life means specializing. I hope I was very good at what I did. I
  try not to knock a craftsman who states his opinion a little out of
  his area of expertise.

  For example, John isn't a computer expert, but does demonstrate a very
  high standard of quality in his cars and most of his writing. The
  Solectria tirade is called for given some think it does the EV cause
  any good. Slow and unattractive cars that do get noticed holding
  everyone else up don't do EVs any good even if the owner is happy.

  And claims made that aren't backed up by results hurt the cause. I
  don't mean 7 sec. to 60, I mean 12 sec. to 50 going onto the freeway.
  A vehicle that performs outside the norm by this amount is hazardous
  because its deviation isn't noticed until too late in the population
  mix. Even government minimum standards recognize this.

  While 4 years of concentrated (expensive) study does not give common
  sense to the student, it does provide an intellectual-knowledge base
  needed for thinking. Even John gets caught thinking sometimes. And he
  is good at debating which isn't always a fact based sport. (See EV
  discussion list).

  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

"Practical experience in the chosen field should be a requirement to
obtain a degree, but isn't."

  You misunderstand the difference between education and qualification.
  The Engineering degree qualifies one for an E.I.T. (Eng. in Training)
  After (about) 5 years a further examination obtains a Professional
  Engineering License. This isn't needed at Boeing for example because
  they have their internal mechanisms to deal with competence. A P.E.
  can cause a lot of problems before he commits a prosecutable offense.
  The P.E. license does make him liable for his work though.

  Generally, I don't understand how ugly cars can be sold, but they are.
  I have always liked small, spunky cars and take offense at the SUV
  aggressiveness in the same arena as my old Sprite. But, it should be
  noted; it doesn't cost much more to make an attractive car. And sales
  are tough to make when the product is a strange shape, ugly and slow.
  That's too many strikes.
  ______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
I'm turning it over
slow by hand and I see the brush move up and down at one point .
This sounds like a high comm bar (especially with the heat you also noted). While the comm could be reground for little $$s I would not be inclined to trust this motor over 1/2 its rated rpm unless the comm was rebuilt (not as cheap). Something has likely come loose in the comm binding, not a good thing for an EV with rpm and amp loads (heat) all over the map. A good motor shop can inspect the actual motor (rather than me reading about the motor) and give a more solid answer.

Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't doubling the size of the Prius pack allow an 8 to 10 mile range at
about 25 mph?  Can the electric motor take that speed for that long?
Interesting idea to hack the Prius systems.  So far it is the only Hybrid
that can run on electric only.  It is actually the only candidate for this
treatment.  Lawrence Rhodes....
Due to pack management that allows relatively little of the pack to be used (especially limiting amps at lower SOC) the Prius can do about 2 miles of level road at 35mph before the ICE kicks in (or much sooner if the AC is on). So, unless you plan to totally rewrite battery management SOC controls you need about 4 to 5 times the pack. Then a way to rewrite just the "capacity" part of the code.

Warning, the Prius is dead slow on battery power. We are talking about a 2700lbs car with 33kW of electric power (and dropping when the SOC drops to 1/2 indicated).

Neon

P.S. - I *think* this is on topic because you are trying to make a part time EV out of a gas/electric hybrid
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Listers,
        Sorry about the last message. I didn't realize I was in HTTP mode. 
        I have a 98 Dodge Neon that is paid off and have been toying with
the idea if converting. I've been told that it's not an ideal body to use
because I can't just stuff it with batteries to give it as long of a range
as possible. I would love to use a small truck but I need four seats for the
rug-rats. I would like to try to use more than 120v of 6v golf cart
batteries (my goal is 144v) but I'm not sure(along with others on the list
on the list that have advised me in the past) that my car could handle it.
Does anyone know of beefier suspension components that would readily install
in a Neon? Do I need to beef up the frame too? Thanks for any advice.

John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Batmobile should be electric. Silent as a Bat, with the proper
controller whine.

Chad

----- Original Message -----
From: "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 4:53 PM
Subject: RE: aha vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay


> Chad Peddy wrote:
> > The WB may not like you converting this one.
>
> But wouldn't it be just perfect for Batman to sneak up on villians with a
> silent Batmobile?  Really, it OUGHT to have been electric to start with -
> converting it would be an improvement.
>
> --
> Lesley Walker
> Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
> as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
>      --- James R. Healey, USA Today
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I talked with some EV-1 people tonight at the EV Club of the South meeting
in Atlanta.  The difference in energy use between PbA and NiMH EV-1s came
up.  They attributed the difference in energy used to recharge the two
vehicles to the difference in battery cooling required.  The NiMH equipped
vehicles apparently operate their air conditioners during charging to
control pack temperatures.  While the A/C is powered by the charger while
the vehicle is being charged, the added energy to operate the cooling system
would be recorded on a charging circuit meter.  The PbA vehicles don't
require this much cooling during recharge.  Their experience suggests that
the PbA vehicles also charge faster.  One owner routinely got 100+
miles/charge on the PbA pack.  Also, they said the RAV-4's batteries are
arranged in a single-layer deep tray that allows better ventilation -
adequate cooling during charging can be provided by operating fans rather
than an air conditioner.

-Alan

Alan C. Shedd, P.E.
Advisor to Georgia's Electric Vehicle Education Program
(cell) 770-654-0027
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Korthof" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Mike Kane" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Michael J. Kobb"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "ev1-club" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [EV1-CLUB] UNpopular Science


> Mike,
>
> >I'm curious as to why the energy use between the EV1
> >PbA and the EV1 NiMH is so different.  I wouldn't have
> >expected battery technology to make such a big
> >difference (48% increase?).
> >
> >It's also curious that the RAV4-EV appears so
> >efficient, since it's a much heavier, boxier body and
> >chassis than the EV1.
>
> It is an interesting comparison. I would point out that
> Toyota is substantially more efficient, overall, during
> charging than the EV1. The RAV4 basically runs the
> the inductive charger flat out, or shuts off. The EV1
> on the other hand, runs a less efficient inductive charger
> much longer at low power levels (extra loss) during the
> final part of the charging cycle. The EV1 also spends
> more power overcharging and climatizing the batteries.
>
> The EPA test cycle is also at relatively low driving
> speeds, with a fair amount of deceleration where the
> RAV4's superior regen braking efficiency helps out.
> At the slower EPA certification speeds, aerodynamic
> advantages of the EV1 are moot. Finally, I think the
> RAV4 tires have lower rolling resistance than those
> on the EV1, offsetting the RAV4's extra 400 lbs.
> The EPA test cycle is also fairly short (like maybe
> 15 miles followed by recharge). The short distance
> may amplify the end-of-charge-cycle power losses
> of the EV1.
>
> At 75 mph, the EV1 certainly compares better,
> though as it's induction motor is better suited to
> high speeds than the RAV4 motor. And then of
> course the aerodynamics. Plus if you recharge
> starting at a lower level (eg, 25%), the losses at
> the end of the EV1 charge cycle are a smaller
> factor.
>
> /wk
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:36 PM
Subject: Fw: EV


Hey Bob,
Well this is it.. I'm hoping it's really 5 hundred and it wasn't a misprint
and is really 5k. But I got the go from my wife so keep your fingers
crossed. If the MTA goes on strike I might have a week off to drive down and
pick up the rabbit.
Thanks for the offering of help.
Mark Hastings
----- Original Message -----
From: scotty moyer
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 7:42 PM
Subject: EV


    Dear "blazer"

    the Rabbit is ready to roll - push or tow.

    running gear is in good shape, damage is to two batteries, back of rear
seat and rear of headliner.

    Reason for damage is unknown - unit was on charge when I left home and
was damaged when I returned

    For more info, call or write.

    Scotty Moyer

    302-798-8447

        Hi All;

   An East Coast EV adventure, coming up here. Mark Hastings eka EV blazer,
called me with the idea that this Rabbit could find a happy home in CT. He
could use a bit more range than the Blazer. After looking at the pix; Wow!
Shiny Rabbit, 500 bux? Can't go wrong. I said "CALL THE GUY NOW! it's about
2pm, if I pull the bumper off MY Rabbit, which has nice welded towbar
brackets, and the homebrew towbar, we could flat tow it home."" Throw it in
my trusty, rusty, Beast of Burden " Ford Econoline van, and I'll pick ya up
at 6th ave and 42 st in NYC We'll go from there. Where's there? OH
!Wilmington DE. Tell him we'll get there about 8-9 pm". Plan went sorta as
planned, hitting NYC traffic about 5pm was a bit of a bummer, but we inched
out to the Holland Tunnel and onto the Jersey turnpike, ran that to the end,
and over the Deleware memorial bridge to Wilmington, arriving at his house
about 9PM.

   Car had had a fire in the "Trunk" area, where the power cables went
through the wooden battery box to the conduit to the front of the car. Lucky
that the car didn't all go up in smoke! This could happen to YOU! THINK,
guyz when running those hipower cables! Keep then separated, and away from
stuff that can chafe holes in the insulation, this almost killed THIS Bunny!
Car was coated with black soot inside, melted the cheezy plastic frames that
the trunk lid cover rests on, as well as scorching the hell out of the
headliner in back. Must have been a rather robust fire when he put it out.
Not of Wayland "Plasma Boy" proportions, but damaging for sure. Coulda
turned the whole car intro a smoking ruin. Damn Fast!

   Details: car has a cute little 6' motor by ADV, clutch, an' 4 speed, a
Cursit 48-72 volt controller, a little one, hadn't seen any that small, but
supposed to be a 400 amp. A 72 volt system, so no tire smoke.4 in front and
8 in back, a K'an' W charger, no DC to dc, yet. Car had been sitting, lots
of tree debris in engine room, needs a good hosing and scrubbing out. Just
talked to Jack Gretta, can work on it in his nice, big, EVer's dream, drive
in basement, heated, a nice thing in this 20 degree weather we have had here
in CT of late. I will be welding brackets on Marks bumper to be able to tow
the Rabbit, over there to work on with MY rabbit, which has a trailer hitch,
from it's Diseasel daze. I HAVE used the EV to tow borrowed woodsplitters
and a lite trailer move. What's a few more amps among friends? Duz fine,
though.

   We plan to repair burn damagre and see if Mark an' his wife can be happy
in a 72 volt Rabbit World, try it, and if it isn't enough snort, go to more
power. Anybody else have a Mike Brown Rabbit conversion out West, 72 volts?
Like it? Tell us about what we can expect. I feel that it will have perky
performance, but not a hellova lot of range?

   Back to the story: OK swap the bumpers, pulled it off and found that the
bolts are BIGGER on mine. Fortunately had throewn MY bolts in the ashtrey in
the van, just in case. So end of problem, hads old rug I had picked up at
the dump, to ly on while doing the bumper acrobatics. COLD, about 20
degrees, joys of doing car work out doors, in the dark, by flashlite, no
less. Finally got everything bolted up, hooked towbar to Rabbit, hitched it
to Ford, and wrapped the safety chain around EVerything so nobody would get
any surprises if vehicles parted company. It DUZ happen! It was after
midnite and our Bunny hadn't turned into a pumpkin, we were on the way, up
I-95, toward Sillydelphia. NO gas stations, for MILES, on a major road,
through a major metropolitan AREA? Don't people use gas in cities? Yeah, I
KNOW Philly has a Electric transportation system, subways, trains, trolley
cars and, OH Joy! trackless trolleys. When we FINALLY found a gas station,
saw the twin trolley wires overhead, in the street. Never saw WHAT was using
them, but a few bamboo poles with hooks and leads, and a nice BIG ass
dropping resistor, those wires run 600 volts, or so, to get it down to EV
volumes. Was a cold nite the resistor could keep ya warm, while yu were
Quick Charging, with NO worry about tripping the breaker.Of course ya hafta
keep a sharp eye for the trolley bus when it comes along<g>! So yu won't get
yelled at!

  We Quick charged the Ford, 20 gal it took, was running on Empty! Continued
on our way. Car had the Goodyear Invicta glr low rolling tires. It pulled
like a feather! Rolled and ROLLED along. Wanna try those wheels on MY Rabbit
to see if Tires make a big differance, if Nokean's are in the park, low
rolling wise. I got my chance! If it EVer stops raining here so I wanna
shleppe around in the slush to do it, put my bumper on and front batteries
back in MY Rabbbit, so I can drive it again. Dropped Mark off at Stamford,
and dragged home about 520 AM, so glad to get into a house with HEAT! A warm
warm, in catching a bunny, and giving it a loving home. Coming through the
NYC metropolitan area about 3 am was a piece of cake. Crashed and banged
along the godawful condition roads at a brisk pace, Cross Bronx X-pressway,
should be a testing ground for that new Sunrise. If it can live in NYC
streets and stay together, it's a keeper! That's why yu never see any OLD
NYC cabs!

  Stay tuned, we may have a half dozen working EV's in CT soon. Going
electric, one car at a time.

  Seeya?

  Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Chad Peddy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 9:17 PM
Subject: Re: aha vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay


> The Batmobile should be electric. Silent as a Bat, with the proper
> controller whine.
>   What! The Curtis whine!

    Bob
> Chad
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Walker, Lesley R" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 4:53 PM
> Subject: RE: aha vehicle for EV conversion on Ebay
>
>
> > Chad Peddy wrote:
> > > The WB may not like you converting this one.
> >
> > But wouldn't it be just perfect for Batman to sneak up on villians with
a
> > silent Batmobile?  Really, it OUGHT to have been electric to start
with -
> > converting it would be an improvement.
> >
> > --
> > Lesley Walker
> > Unix Engineering, EDS New Zealand
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > "[Hybrid electric vehicles] are self-sustaining,
> > as long as you keep putting gas in the tank."
> >      --- James R. Healey, USA Today
> >
>
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I'll second that, David.

You can't stereotype an entire class of people based on your experience with
a few of them.  

I've worked on products that would create fairly spectacular results if they
failed (especially the anfo-slurry pumps), and they have not.  And yes, I am
an engineer.

By the way, the only letters after my name are those I worked to put there,
and they do not reflect any sort of degree.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Roden (Akron OH USA) [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 2:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Perfect High-Dollar EV


On 11 Dec 2002 at 7:03, Joseph H. Strubhar wrote:

> In short, most engineers are overpaid idiots!

With all due respect to Joseph and his experience -- I'm not in the same  
business -- I know several engineers, and not a one of them would meet this 
description. 

We've had some posts the last few days which I fear edge a little too close
to 
flame bait, and I'm sorry to say this one just might.  Endless personal 
attacks and counterattacks have trashed the signal-to-noise ratio of many 
other internet mailing lists, and I don't want that to happen here. 

May I suggest that posters please take care not to "shoot from the hip"? 
Most already do, but if ^everyone^ did, the list would be more readable.
Just 
a little thought about how others might respond to the one's words, before 
hitting the "send" button, often leads one to tone things down a bit.

I find it's helpful to write what my emotions ^want^ to say, but not send it
right 
away.  I usually save the finished post for an hour or two -- even
overnight.  
By the time I come back to the computer, my reason has usually taken over. 
 I invariably edit the post extensively, usually turning down the heat 
considerably.

David Roden
Akron OH USA


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I might as well jump in here.
My name is Andrew and I'm an engineer. 
I'm also an excellent technician (they are not mutually exclusive).

When I read John's post (I always read John's stuff) on the Sunrise I
had mixed reactions. I have to take Johns comments about the car
seriously, John certainly knows more about electric cars than I do and
he's actually seen the car which I have not.

I do take exception to John's remarks about engineers. I can only
imagine he must have had some bad experiences (I myself had to explain
tapered pipe threads to a junior engineer once) but that does not
justify making broad generalizations.
I've had technicians mess up parts for me because they couldn't convert
metric to inches but I don't go around suggesting that technicians are
morons that don't understand basic math. 

I wouldn't want John to stop posting, he has a lot to offer the list. I
wouldn't even want to edit his style but I wish he could write without
describing whole groups of people as being unfit to be let out in
public.

He starts out well enough:

> I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts, 
> design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non 
> engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common sense...
> someone who had the position to oversee everything 
> the engineers tired to push through, 

OK so far, common sense is not prohibited by having an engineering
degree but it's not necessarily required either....
Usually there IS a person who oversees everything the engineers try to
push through, they are called managers. If the manager doesn't ask the
right questions it's almost impossible for the engineer to come up with
the right answers.

> someone who is in touch  with aesthetics, a sense of style, 
> a sense of art, a sense of  practicality, a sense of value, 
> a sense of the competitive  spirit, and a feel for what everyday 
> folks want and appreciate. 

All laudable values which should be incorporated into every product. But
if management doesn't include them in the job description then the
engineer will be criticized if he attempts to sneak them in. Very few
engineers have the luxury of doing things the way they want to.
I should point out that the better engineers do have a sense of
aesthetics and craftsmanship just as the better technicians have an
understanding of stresses and mechanics.

> I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded 
> rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and 
> designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free 
> reign...never let them talk to the public :-)

This is the part that really bothers me. If the engineers are not in
touch with what the outside world requires the last thing they need is
to be shut off from the rest of the world. 
I would suggest that John should require his engineers to go to NEDRA
events, custom car shows and high end sound system competitions. Give
bonuses for those who come to work in tricked out custom creations.

-- 
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
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Peter wrote:

> from that article:
> "Why generate electricity twice, first to produce electricity for the
> process of electrolysis and then to produce power, heat and light by
> way of a fuel cell? The reason is that electricity doesn't store."
> 
> Damn, my truck stopped working as soon as I read that.  And here I
> thought that, using todays technology, electricity stores more
> readily, safer, and more efficiently than hydrogen does.  Silly me.

I assume he meant on a mass scale. You have someplace you can store a few hundred 
kilowatts of electricity for an extended period of 
time ?

Besides, the thrust of his article is to decentralize the production of hydrogen AND 
electricity.


Vince
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Lee Hart wrote:
>> If the capacitor is 400vdc, then it's wired as a voltage doubler,
>> not a bridge. It won't work on DC. You won't hurt anything to try
>> it, though.

Steven Ciciora wrote:
> Nope, it's wired as a bridge. The filtered lines go directly to the
> AC in side (squggly lines), and the 400V cap + goes to the + of the
> bridge, etc.

Oops; I mis-wrote. if it has only one 400vdc capacitor, it must be a
bridge. It should work OK on DC. It would have TWO equal-value 200vdc
capacitors if it was a voltage doubler, which only works on AC.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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I don't seem to be able to get as much of a charge as I had been a month or 2 ago. The 
charger is not temperature compensated. It had been warm for this time of year but 
it's now in the mid 40's in the early morning. I'm guessing the batteries are 20 
degrees colder than they were. The US Battery web site says to adjust the charging 
voltage .028v / cell / 10 degrees. Is this for both bulk and finish charge? It sounds 
like I need to turn up my charger by about 2 volts (72volt pack). 

I'm still puting together my new charger controller. It will be looking at delta v / 
delta t which should improve on my situation.

thanks,
Steve
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On Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:

> Just think of it, since a GEM cannot exceed 25mph, it would take
> almost 1.5 hours at full speed before to drive full range. That's
> a lot of driving at slow speeds.
>
> BTW - great writeup in the latest EV News evaluating NEVs. All of
> them had a top speed just under 25mph and most of there ranges
> were more like 1/2-3/4 of advertised range.

Interesting.  Someone at work showed me a copy of 'official' test 
results for a variety of NEVs (some of which I hadn't heard of 
before), and as I recall, the ranges were measured to the point that 
the vehicle would not maintain at something like at least 18-19mph. 
 In this instance (official tests), it seems to me that at least some 
of them attained ranges pretty close to the stated range.  Perhaps EV 
News quoted results for real-world stop-and-go type operation?

BTW, the 'full' range of a current production GEM is considerably 
more than 35miles, I have heard.

> Still, the minimum EV I'd consider would be a City EV.
> Might consider a NEV when I'm 80 years old, but otherwise they're a
> waste.

This is a bit strong, although it may certainly be true for your 
locale and situation.  I had the pleasure of using a NEV to drive 
around for several weeks and found it quite adequate (enjoyable, 
actually) for urban commuting here in Vancouver (which, although not 
SF, is not flat by any means).  Now, I have to be honest and admit 
that my sample was actually capable of exceeding the 25mph 'official' 
limit, but I'll also state that about the only time I took advantage 
of that capability was when regenning down long, steep hills.  The 
vast majority of the time 25mph was all I needed or could use due to 
traffic conditions.

I would certainly consider a NEV for my daily commuter/second car, 
expecially if I could get one for less than the cost of converting an 
ICE.

Cheers,

Roger.
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[ref http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/EVList/message/33259 ]

Did anyone read that one? 
(is anyone reading any of them? Or am I wasting my time 
 on this new OT interested EV List membership?)

If Caps became affordable, think of their weight to capacity
ratio, their nil maintenance, ... what else.

...
One of the biggest arguments the automakers state is the range
to cost. Even if Cap were used, the limiting factor would be the
pubic charging.

I know from personal experience that 6 kw is not as nice as
12 kw or higher.

If caps were used, one would not have to be concerned with 
boiling electrolyte, or other battery chemistry issues.

Watt do you think?

=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above EV ascci art)
=====

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Ugly.  Never.  After being exposed to the Wayland garage I know better.
(  How would you do it better?)
If you remember he is the one that suggested a 150 mile range Insight.  I
believe that would be at least cheaper than and probably better performance
wise than the proposed Sunrise.  I hope it suceeds.  If however I had the
bucks.  It would be an Insight conversion.  Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 5:28 AM
Subject: RE: Perfect High-Dollar EV


> Well now.  Feeling a little stressed, John?
>
> There's so much in your posts on this that begs a response.  Personal
> opinions presented as unassailable fact, single examples used to "prove"
> broad statements, etc.  I'm not taking the bait.  This will be my last
> post on the subject.
>
> I will pose a question, though, based on the following passage:
>
> > > How would you do it better?
> >
> > I'd start, by making sure each and every engineer's concepts,
> > design, and construction, be closely monitored by a non
> > engineer type, someone with, god forbid, common
> > sense...someone who had the position to oversee everything
> > the engineers tired to push through, someone who is in touch
> > with aesthetics, a sense of style, a sense of art, a sense of
> > practicality, a sense of value, a sense of the competitive
> > spirit, and a feel for what everyday folks want and
> > appreciate. I'd probably keep the engineers in small guarded
> > rooms with a slot in the locked door where food goes in and
> > designs come out, and never, ever, let them roam with a free
> > reign...never let them talk to the public :-)
>
> Now John, given the nature of this list, how many people do you think
> you might have insulted?  Do you think the little smiley face accounts
> for much when it's smack in the middle of a full-Wayland attack rant?
> And what are the qualifications that give you any credibility whatsoever
> in suggesting what engineers do or how they do it?
>
> No one on this list will dispute that you have a wealth of knowledge and
> experience to offer.  You're one of the major players in the EV
> community.  Has it occurred to you that you do yourself and the entire
> EV community a great disservice when you deliver your expertise in such
> an ugly manner?
>
> Chris
>
>
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Sorry that we are coinciding with the North Bay, but this is our last
meeting of 2002.

*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
'An Analysis for the TH!NK [City] Electric Car'
by Warren Winovich, SVEAA Member
Saturday, December 14, 2002
>From 10 to 12 noon
Meeting Location: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.

Warren Winovich will be providing his research on efficiency 
of Ford TH!NK City EV based on having lead-acid batteries. 
Currently, all of the TH!NK Citys have NiCad batteries, which 
afford them a 40-60 mile range. Lead-acid packs don't provide 
as much capacity nor range.

Warren will describe his technique for performance simulation 
and how this can be applied to other EVs. Lots of detailed 
information.

EAA Chapter Elections for 2003

We will also discuss activities for 2003 and have election of 
next year's offices. Please consider an active role in our 
Chapter - more hands make lighter work.

Directions: Church is on North side of street, at the corner 
of Santa Clara Ave and Stanton St in Alameda. Turn North on 
Stanton St. and left into the parking lot.

**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
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