EV Digest 2477
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Moving A Rabbit
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) L91-4003, Max RPM's?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT backup battery system
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by "David C. Navas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) OT: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Battery Trailer was: Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: KTA Services
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) NiMH
by "Rhett T. George" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Moving A Rabbit
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Hybrid Rendezvous w/ Ed Begley & UCS Jan 3rd Fri @ LA Auto Show
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Coolant pump choice?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT backup battery system
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Buy one locally.
It would be cheaper to buy a working Rabbit in Missouri than it would be
to move one out from Oregon.
I think a working rabbit in decent shape runs about $500 (unless it's a
convertable)
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 10:46, Don Buckshot wrote:
> Fellow listers,
>
> I am trying to arrange to move a EV Rabbit glider from Oregon to Missouri.
>
> My question is: Does anyone on this list know how to get it here cheap?
>
> Perhaps someone would be planning a trip to the Midwest from that area in
> the next month or two and be willing to tow it in this direction for a small
> fee? I just can't work out driving that far west to pick it up and the
> trucking cost would be $850 or more. Again it is just a glider.
>
> Any suggestions, anyone?
>
> Don Buckshot
> Kansas City, MO
> 816-582-6891
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have tried looking about and can find the max current and voltage specs
for this motor.
L91-4003, 72-120V, dual-shaft, 12 HP, 100/150/500 amps, (6.7")
However I would like to know what the max RPM's of it are? It's in my "new"
rabbit.
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer (selling/parting?)
www.geocities.com/evblazer
'80 EV Rabbit (just dragged in, with lots of help)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 11:23, John Lussmyer wrote:
> At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
> >If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others might
> >be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
>
> heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
> selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
> If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
> starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
>
> Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80 for a
> useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that there are
> people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
<whistle> Wow! where are you seeing them for $172? Even the local auto
parts store sells them for $134 retail here.
FWIW I agree with David, I felt that $80 was way to much for batteries
that are near the end of their service life. Even it they were only 1/2
way used up, you'd have used the better half of their life. As is they
are closer to 2/3-3/4 used up and their remaining life is nowhere near
as useful as the part that has been used up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At your figures (comes to 12.5 amps at 240 volts), you'll need at least
600Ah capacity at 240 volts usable capacity for 48 hours and you can figure
your loads will increase greatly over what you initially figure on. We have
some huge UPS systems at work and mostly use the huge Exide cells. I'm not
directly involved with them so don't know the exact sizes, but we'll have a
rooms full of batteries, usually each string is 480 volts. Generally, the
largest UPS systems we use will have 240 large 2V cells (each cell is weighs
about 300 pounds) mounted in large racks. Looking at the Exide web site,
they have a huge selection of batteries for this type service, some with a
20 year rated life, and up to 12,000Ah or better. I'm sure there are many
other manufacturers with similar products. Don't know anything about the
inverters.
I also recommend you set aside a battery room inside the building so you can
keep the batteries warm. You will need an exhaust vent, but you generally
won't have much hydrogen generated unless you've really discharged them and
are then recharging them. While on float, you'll see very little if any
hydrogen generated. Having said this, there are fire codes and building
codes which will have to be followed and can vary by jurisdiction, so I
suggest you contact an expert in your area for help. Your local Fire
Marshall would probably be a good start.
Hope this gives you a start.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT backup battery system
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:00:54 -0500
Hi All,
Those of you who follow the news/weather will have heard about (or been
caught in) the massive Ice storm that left over 2 million people in NC/SC
without power.
My School was without power for about 5 days. The powers that be here want
us to try and put together a battery backup system that will keep our
Servers, phones, and alarm systems on long term battery backup (say at
least
48 hours).
Right now, we only have "standard" ups power which is generally exhausted
in
anywhere from 7 minutes to 1/2 hour (depending on which battery bank it is
on).
I'm trying to get an estimate of how much power we need to provide and the
other specs, but if any of you folks with off grid systems would be willing
to help me design and purchase a system I'd appreciate it.
Just FYI according to a few back of the envelope calcs I did, we are going
to need a system to provide somewhere between 2 and 3 kw for 48 hours.
Looks like I'll be building a new outbuilding just for the bats...
Thanks in advance,
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of John Lussmyer
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 1:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
>If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others
might
>be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80 for a
useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that there are
people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*.
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Costco has Red tops for low $100s, but still their Blue tops (deep cycle)
are more like $140+. Only know of special distributer deals for deep cycle
Optimas for about $115/ea. Are you aware of any less expensive sources?
Thanks for clearing that up. I had heard (I guess incorrectly) that
the reds and blues were the same price.
I bought my last batch from a dealer for under $110 each. But I had
to buy 50 to get that price.
At 11:31 AM -0800 12/13/02, John Lussmyer wrote:
A Blue top isn't a Yellow top.
True, the terminals are different, the top color is different and
some of them are starting batteries. My understanding is that the
internals of the deep cycle blue tops are the same as the yellow tops.
I've seen some Sparrows that came with blue tops.
Looking at the data sheets, it looks like the D34M part number
8006-006 is the marine starting battery with the darker case and the
D34M part number 8016-103 with the lighter case is the deep cycle one.
Does anyone know which one Costco carries? I've been assuming it was
the deep cycle one but since I'm not a member I haven't checked.
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Four weeks before EVS 14:
[...]
> MG: [averting his eyes] Uh, didn't you hear? The Marketing manager
> thought we'd make a bigger splash by putting the car in the Ride and
> Drive. The public is going to be all over it and driving it for a whole
> day.
Replace four with three, insert the Christmas and New Years holiday,
and you have something remarkably like what's happening to me, right now.
<shrug>
You get used to the idea that the more people find out about a project,
the farther they want to take it, and that there's nothing you can really
do about it, because if you pad your schedule, that just means that people
find out about your project later.
Of course, that's exactly what's going on with the "Sunrise" project.
Each person wants to take the project in a slightly different direction.
I think the project as is is pretty cool, though like others, I wouldn't
pay $50k for 17s 0-60 ($40k for 9s 0-60, yes). I don't doubt that by
the end of this project, some large corporate entity will come in,
promise huge funding, but "only if we're allowed to tweak a few things
here and there." Best of luck ;^/
-Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<rant_on>
Come on now, people, let's be more reasonable here. Paying only $20 for
a $130-150 for a really great battery is almost (if not) insulting. Having
spent a big chunk of change for my 20 Optima YT's, I think that anything
less than $50 each (even for used ones) is unreasonable, if not insulting.
There is still a significant amount of life left in these, and the fact
that they have consistantly delivered what John needed for this long should
tell you that. If I had a use of them, I'd offer at least $50 each.
Let's remember that we're all on the same team, and that we're not trying
to take advantage of each other.
</rant_off>
Mark
>-- Original Message --
>Subject: Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
>From: Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Date: 13 Dec 2002 13:07:09 -0700
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 11:23, John Lussmyer wrote:
>> At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
>> >If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others
might
>> >be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
>>
>> heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
>> selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
>> If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
>> starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
>>
>> Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80
for
>a
>> useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that there
>are
>> people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
>
><whistle> Wow! where are you seeing them for $172? Even the local auto
>parts store sells them for $134 retail here.
>
>FWIW I agree with David, I felt that $80 was way to much for batteries
>that are near the end of their service life. Even it they were only 1/2
>way used up, you'd have used the better half of their life. As is they
>are closer to 2/3-3/4 used up and their remaining life is nowhere near
>as useful as the part that has been used up.
>
Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Friday, December 13, 2002 11:32 AM, John Lussmyer
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> A Blue top isn't a Yellow top.
True... it's better: it is the marine version of a YT and has both
automotive posts for the high current wiring and threaded studs for
easy and neat connection of Rudman Regs or anyone else's
module-by-module monitoring/regulation devices.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chad Peddy wrote:
> I have designed a great battery trailer, with specks that a
> small car can handle. The extra weight is on the trailer and not on the
> car.
>
> Trailer weight 1700lbs.
> 24 6volt batts
> breakaway axle breaks
> breakaway power disconnect (still perfecting)
> relatively small,(pulled similar behind a 914)
I've given some thought to this too, and was thinking about
how the trailer should have regen if the car does not. Most of our cars
don't have regen, and we don't need it for the shorter trips. With
a range extending trailer, many would be lured into those trips over
the mountain and could benefit from the regen, maybe even reqire it
to be safe with the added weight of the trailer. Maybe a modular trailer
design would be nice to operate as:
1. Empty trailer for the value of the regen for a certain situation.
a. There's your generator on the wheel.
2. Extra cargo + regen
3. Extra battery pack for long range EV with regen.
4. Generator for hybrid.
....John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree. Ken's a great guy with loads of knowledge and excellent customer
service.
He mentioned to me a couple years ago he was interested in selling his
business and retiring to pursue other interests. Which includes work on the
Circuit Breaker dragster with Jim Ludiker and possibly building an electric
Ford Focus drag car.
Personally, for selfish reasons, I hope he doesn't retire.
As far as help. We need to get schools more interested in building EVs
again. Alot of the EV parts business is driven by school projects. Ken was
also mentioning a conversion kit for Jr. Dragsters since they are pretty hot
at the moment.
So to help ALL our EV suppliers we need to get the schools involved and get
more people to convert their cars.
***************************************************************
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
144 Volt Ford Escort
GE Elec-Trak E10
Check out the cool electric scooters we have at SkooterCommuter
http://www.skootercommuter.com
on 12/1/02 5:15 PM, Rick at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 7:13 AM
> Subject: Re: Responding to EV Naysayers
>
>
>> on 12/1/02 2:25 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at
on 12/13/02 2:42 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:35:45 -0600
> To: "'Bob Bath'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: KTA Services info.
>
> I have to echo Bob's feelings regarding Ken. Ken helped me a lot during my
> rebuild. His breadth and depth of knowledge of EV's impressed me greatly.
> Every time I called, he took pains not just to sell me a part, but to make
> sure that I got what I really needed. His explanations helped me to figure
> out when I needed something different, or maybe didn't need something at all
> in that instance. He also took care to mention if there was a quality used
> part available instead of a new one, and gave me great deals on them. And
> his suggestions for how to do/build/wire/install things undoubtedly saved me
> a lot of back pains.
>
> Do you know for sure if he is wanting to sell because business has been bad,
> or for other reasons? Is there anything we could do to help?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Bath [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 10:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: KTA Services info.
>
>
> Hi Fellow Evers,
> I was on the horn with Ken Koch a couple of days
> ago. He mentioned that he was quite interested in
> selling his business (KTA Services). Now, I've got a
> real admiration for Ken, because before I got behind
> the wheel of the Rabbit, then again, when I started
> adding things onto the Rabbit, and finally now as I
> prepare the Civic, the guy is just a fine person to
> me. He always explains things, often in layperson's
> terms (a la Lee Hart!) I'm a bit of a novice, and I
> appreciate that.
> My initial reaction was one of concern. Lots of
> people can sell parts. But Ken has experience and
> knowledge. He specifically told me though, "If you
> know of anyone who might be interested in purchasing
> the business, please let them know."
> Well, _you_ are the people I know, some of whom
> might have the qualities that have made Ken successful
> thus far. I must say that he's mentioned that
> business has been down lately.
> Is anyone else nervous?
>
> =====
> Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html
> ____
> /__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 11:57, Bob Rice wrote:
> But the issue EVerybody sidesteps here is, in my book. Pumping all the
> burned oil into the AIR, DAMN it! They don't see that end of it. It isn't
> really that inportant, WHERE it comes from, it is being dumped into that few
> mile thick atmosphere that we NEED to exist on Earth. I have sorta gotten
> used to breathing, hope to be able to enjoy this privilidge as long as I
> need it, in this life. I hope the hell that the oil runs out for that
> reason, more than any other. This would force meaningful research and
> development to other, cleaner things.
I understand your point, but we don't need it to run out. Just have the
gas prices go back up to $2.25+ where it was a while back, and then stay
there for a year or three, and you'll see a LOT of work toward more
"alternative" vehicles. Then the "general" consumers would finally
demand it - even if we had a million years worth of oil left.
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Season's Greetings -
Please, a question for the battery gurus. I find it less expensive to
blow up small items first. In a 6 cell string of AA NiMH, one has become
a 0.25 ohm, nonlinear resistor. With 0.5 VDC across it in the proper
direction, it draws 2 A. I hope someone is willing and able to tell us
all what has happened internally.
I can cut it open, but I do not know how to look at the guts from a
chemical sense and know what has happened.
Rhett George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at it this way. It is cheaper to buy a running car on the west coast
and drive it home. That way you know the running gears work, the assorted
systems work and it will only cost you the gas & the car of course. There
is no way you can get a reasonable deal on a used car in the rust belt. Cars
on the west coast are cheaper because they outlast the owners use and move
down in the food chain. They just aren't junked fast enough. Supply and
demand. If it suits your needs and isn't rusted it is worth the 850 for
shipping. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Buckshot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 9:46 AM
Subject: Moving A Rabbit
> Fellow listers,
>
> I am trying to arrange to move a EV Rabbit glider from Oregon to Missouri.
>
> My question is: Does anyone on this list know how to get it here cheap?
>
> Perhaps someone would be planning a trip to the Midwest from that area in
> the next month or two and be willing to tow it in this direction for a
small
> fee? I just can't work out driving that far west to pick it up and the
> trucking cost would be $850 or more. Again it is just a glider.
>
> Any suggestions, anyone?
>
> Don Buckshot
> Kansas City, MO
> 816-582-6891
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hybrid Rendezvous w/ Ed Begley & UCS Jan 3rd Fri @ LA Auto Show
[This message is broadcast hybrid & EV discussion areas,
and EAA eaaev.org chapter contacts near S. Calif.
*** To RSVP: Kelly Hayes-Raitt at (310) 581-4421
Location: 1201 S. Figueroa St, Los Angeles, CA 90015
Directions: The Los Angeles Convention Center is located at
the junction of the I-10-Santa Monica and the 110-Harbor
Freeways. http://laautoshow.com/directions.asp
EV Recharging: a Convention Center parking attendant will
direct you. Onsite: 1 AVCON & 1 LPI (SPI within 1.5 mi) ]
-[Edited]-----Original Message-----
From: Transpo Intern [[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: [ The Electric Auto Association http://eaaev.org ]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 11:23 AM
Subject: Looking Down the Road Toward a Greener Auto Show
I received this letter from Ed Begley who is going to be at
the Hybrid Event in LA. We're trying to spread the word
about the event. Thanks, Gabriela Silvani
-
-
Dear Fellow Hybrid Car Owner,
Please join me at a Hybrid Car Rendezvous outside the Los
Angeles Auto Show on Friday, January 3rd from 6:00 am to
11:00 am.
This exciting, first-ever hybrid car rendezvous in downtown
Los Angeles will:
o Challenge automakers to adopt hybrid technology
throughout their fleets.
o Unveil a new report by the Union of Concerned Scientists
that details how hybrid cars can benefit both the
environment and consumers.
o Allow media reporters, elected officials and others to
ride and rate hybrid cars for their smooth ride,
parkability, fuel efficiency and all the other benefits we
know hybrid cars provide. This lighthearted event will be
broadcast by the news media to educate the public about
our environmentally friendly vehicles.
For more information or to R.S.V.P., please call Kelly
Hayes-Raitt at (310) 581-4421.
You (and your hybrid!) can participate in this great event
any time between 6:00 am and 11:00 am, but you must R.S.V.P.
by Friday, December 27th to participate.
Please join me and other forward-thinking Southern
Californians in showing our city how to drive clean!
Please forward this to interested people.
Hope to see you there!
Sincerely, Ed Begley
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 13:16, Mark Dodrill wrote:
> <rant_on>
> Come on now, people, let's be more reasonable here. Paying only $20 for
> a $130-150 for a really great battery is almost (if not) insulting. Having
> spent a big chunk of change for my 20 Optima YT's, I think that anything
> less than $50 each (even for used ones) is unreasonable, if not insulting.
> There is still a significant amount of life left in these, and the fact
> that they have consistantly delivered what John needed for this long should
> tell you that. If I had a use of them, I'd offer at least $50 each.
>
> Let's remember that we're all on the same team, and that we're not trying
> to take advantage of each other.
> </rant_off>
>
First of all neither David or myself is trying to take advantage of
John. Neither of us are interested in his batteries even at $20 each
(it would cost $40-$50 each just to ship them).
We were just stating what we believed was a fair price for batteries
that are nearly used up.
As an example, several years back David sold me some Deka Dominators
that were only lightly used for $35 each...delivered. While Dekas can't
produce the same amount of raw power as YTs, they do have a slightly
higher 1 hour rating. I believe the new price for DEKAs is higher than
YTs.
$20 for new YTs would be insulting, but these are far from new YTs.
Under the right circumstances you can buy brand new Blems for $80.
A "significant amount of life left" is debatable.
They have zero life left at 100% of their rated capacity.
They have zero life left at 90% of their rated capacity.
They have very little life left at 80% of their rated capacity.
They have perhaps 150(?) cycles left at ~50% of their rated capacity.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Chris for posting that, as a Design Engineer
( perhaps more of a "Technician" and general
"give it to him, he can fix anything" guy)
I can say you hit the nail right on the head, that
story summed up just what I've been through this
week with one client
( think of glass jars, marketing/advertising company execs
and picky GPS electronics... ugh! )
Design is a difficult business - get any part of it wrong,
and *someone* will want your blood. Even if the part that
doesn't work isn't something you designed or chose.
And (of course) they'll want it before yesterday.....
Regards
Richard Bebbington
Electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
"in my book",
Do you have something published or on PDF?
I would like to read it.
Rod
Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Evlist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 21:35, Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.
Correct. And only the government can authorize releasing oil from the
reserve in times of crisis.
Hi All;
But the issue EVerybody sidesteps here is, in my book. Pumping all the
burned oil into the AIR, DAMN it! They don't see that end of it. It isn't
really that inportant, WHERE it comes from, it is being dumped into that few
mile thick atmosphere that we NEED to exist on Earth. I have sorta gotten
used to breathing, hope to be able to enjoy this privilidge as long as I
need it, in this life. I hope the hell that the oil runs out for that
reason, more than any other. This would force meaningful research and
development to other, cleaner things.
INHO
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeremy Green wrote:
>
> What about this pump:
> http://www.autoperformanceengineering.com/html/jabsco.html
>
> I was thinking of getting one of these for the coolant pump for my
> t-rex...
> They are used as a coolant pump for the heat for a mercedes (I think)
>
> -Jeremy
I use two of these Jabsco pumps in ACRX, one to cool inverter and
motor, and one to cool the charger. They are very quiet and I have
no issues with them, On the street I can barely hear the pump with
my ear next to it, and absolutely cannot hear it from the driver's
seat. BTW, I sell these: http://www.metricmind.com/water.htm
The only issue with brushed motor is the life time - 2,500 hrs.
For the drive train working may be 2 hours/day it is guaranteed for
about 3.4 years, but for charger (say, 6-7 hrs/day) it may wear
out in less than a year. If you plan to cool off the NiCds during
long charges, keep that in mind, and have a means to shut off the
charger if the pump fails.
I'm also importing better alternative - Bosch (specifically
automotive) water pump, it's not on the web yet. It's is smaller
than Jabsco (55mm dia and 60 mm long without fitting) and the main
advantage - it uses brushless DC motor, which exceeds 6000 hrs of
life. Samples that I have are a bit noisier, it's actually
a high pitch whine from the motor coils I believe.
I can hear it from the seat, but of course as soon as the car
starts moving, tire noise masks it off entirely. Also it puts
out impressive for its size water flow, about 5 GPM.
I've replaced my inverter's Jabsco pump for Bosch one and
evaluating it now.
One certainly can use aquarium pumps or $29.95 ones Bill mentioned
in his post, I'd be concerned about reliability and life, as
they are not magnetic drive and most likely made in Far East.
My preference is pay one time 4-5 times of that and not to worry,
rather than keep replacing it every so often (spreading the same
money over time), but this is rather matter of philosophy.
Victor
> On Thursday, December 12, 2002, at 11:28 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to pick out a silent, reliable coolant pump for my EV. I
> > plan to install water-cooled NiCads in the Wabbit, so I need a pump to
> > circulate the coolant. A 12 volt pump seemed most logical. Bait well
> > pumps seemed to be the right pressure and flow rate. I would think
> > that they would also have reasonable life and would be able to handle
> > coolant.
> >
> > The following two pumps seemed to be good candidates:
> >
> > http://www.tbympl.com/body_attwood03.html
> >
> > http://www.outfittersparadise.com/b/Bait_Well_Pumps/
> > Rule_Straight_1_Log_Pick_Up_Tube_for_Mounting_to_Seacock_500_GPH_326177
> > .htm
> >
> > Does anyone have experience with either of these pumps or
> > brands? Silent operation is important to me.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> > \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > =(___)=
> > U
> > Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
This sounds familiar. Just before Mitsubishi took 80% control of
Caterpillar forklift they
had a visit scheduled (the president of Mitsubishi forklift no less).
My boss said, "they'll
be here next week, but the chief engineer thought it would be nice to
put a Cat drive
on the Mitsubishi forklift in the service area, I know it's impossible,
but see what you can do"
On a Sunday late afternoon I had the drive installed (ripped out the GE
drive, dash display
and rewired all of the interface circuitry). I was surprised the
forklift would even drive.
I had a CAT control (that I designed) along with a thrown together dash
display that actually
worked!. Anyhow, the Mitsubishi executives where very impressed and it
was a big success.
I'm sure if they looked closely behind the panels and dash display they
may have questioned
the 'professional look' of this conversion. Thankfully they did not and
walked away happy.
This is a typical situation that many engineers are presented with,
especially in the EV corporate
community. Mitsubishi closed the deal but wanted to concentrate
engineering in Japan.
Of the 11 EE's, technicians and draftsman in the department that were
offered jobs in Houston, TX
to do clean up work for the Japanese engineers in Japan to make it a
'US' forklift, 10 guys turned
down the job when offered on the same day!
Much of the work I did to make this happen was really technician stuff,
wiring, interface etc.
Currently at Ametek I give many design engineering projects to the
technicians. They do
a great job and enjoy the break from routine work. I think the key to
this monologue is that
the technicians and engineers I work with do so as equals (although I do
get paid more:-).
Is this fair? I don't know, but the management sets the pay scale, not
me. Should I be envious of
the marketing manager that makes more than me? The answer is no, I
wouldn't want his job and
would be unhappy and less productive than him doing it. You can be
happy with your job and if
not, aspire to something you want, regardless of the monetary value.
Rod
Chris Tromley wrote:
Now that the dust has settled a bit, it occurred to me that some of the
flap over engineers and what they do might have come from a simple lack
of understanding. Most of us can relate to putting our own cars
together in our own garages for our own satisfaction. Most of us want
to do a good job at it.
But only those who work as development engineers can fully appreciate
how a manufactured product gets from concept to reality. Many different
non-engineers are involved, from providing necessary input to approving
the final result, but it is the development engineers who make it
happen.
Commercially available products are like laws and sausage. Everybody
wants them, but the process that makes them isn't pretty. As a
development engineer myself (not in the automotive industry), I hope I
can offer some insight. I think it's important since, with any luck,
EVs will eventually leave the realm of the home builder and become
readily available to the public at large. That will require engineers,
with skills different from most hobbyists. Note that the definition of
"engineer" relies more on mindset and approach than education.
If you think we're a bunch of nerds in crisp white lab coats holding
clipboards, and that we spend our days debating which are the proper
equations to use, please read on. I've put together some pure
speculation on how the Sunrise project might have progressed. It's
based on unrelated but relevant experience. I've made little attempt to
be true to actual facts, dates or events. I use the Sunrise project as
a basis for this fictional tale only because it's fresh in our minds.
Even though it's fiction, as a whole I think it's a far more plausible
description of what happened than others we've seen recently.
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Our story begins many months before EVS 14:
Project Engineer: You know this thing is going to be really slow with
that puny drive in it, don't you?
Engineering Manager: Yeah, I know. But it'll be fast enough for the
distance run and the efficiency is about the same. It won't matter at
all at EVS as long as it looks OK. I'm not confident the bigger drive
has all its bugs worked out yet, and XYZ Foundries still hasn't fixed
the casting for the larger motor. I think we're better off avoiding
surprises by using the smaller drive.
PE: Well, I can't argue with that. The body guys are driving me nuts
with all the changes coming out of the crash testing. We've had to move
the inverter four times so far! It's a damn good thing the inverter for
the larger drive uses the same enclosure. By the way, are they ever
going to make the body look better than a squashed grape?
EM: Right now they only care about what works in the wind tunnel. And
yes, I know the molds look worse every time they hack them up, but those
molds are all we have for aero mock-ups. Once they've settled on a
final shape, I'll try to have the molds re-done by an outside vendor.
You have to remember though, that we aren't going to manufacture this
car. The stylists at whatever manufacturer picks it up are certainly
not going to keep their hands off the shape. Why put any effort into it
if they're just going to change it?
***** Fast Forward *****
Four weeks before EVS 14:
Marketing Guy: Hey, how's the project coming? Are you guys going to be
ready for the big show?
EM: I think so. There are a few minor things to straighten out, but we
should be OK. We never got a chance to install the larger drive, but
that shouldn't be an issue for you. We still need to clean up the
interior. It's a good thing no one will be able to get too close to it
at the show.
MG: [averting his eyes] Uh, didn't you hear? The Marketing manager
thought we'd make a bigger splash by putting the car in the Ride and
Drive. The public is going to be all over it and driving it for a whole
day.
EM: WHAT!?!?! The last WE heard, it was going to be roped off in a
static display! HAVE YOU SEEN THE CAR!?!?! Half the interior is bare
fiberglass! The other half is covered with foam, vinyl and glue! We
can't show it like that! As far as driving is concerned, it's slow as
molasses and rides like a truck. The chassis guys never got a chance to
isolate the suspension because the body guys are STILL playing with the
supporting structure. I'm telling you, putting the car in the Ride and
Drive is a Big Mistake!
MG: Ummm, sorry, but it's a done deal. The president approved it and
we just made the deadline for submission. It's already in the show
program. Uh, gotta go. Let me know how it turns out, OK?
*** Short interlude while EM suppresses the urge to kill ***
Calls PE into his office.
EM: We've had a fairly major change in plans. The car is entered in
the Ride and Drive at the show.
PE: [deadpan expression] You're not kidding, are you?
EM: I wish I was.
PE: [eyes glaze as he quickly estimates what this means] Oh, man.
This won't be easy. [thinks some more] Actually, I can sum it up
pretty easily. Remember how we painted the car with spray cans to get
the press release photos out in time?
EM: Yeah, the art department wasn't happy with all the retouching they
needed. And I was thinking the same thing - we won't have time to get
it painted now, will we?.
PE: Nope. We still have lots of wiring to finish and the heater to
install, which weren't needed for the show before. Now they are. And a
presentable interior as well. Here's what I'm thinking. We have a tech
who can make spray paint look surprisingly good. I can get him to clean
up the outside while two more guys dress up the interior. (That will be
the tougher job.) We'll have a lot of people getting in each others'
way, but I think we can pull it off. Of course you do realize what this
will do to the project schedule? It sure would be nice to get back to
doing real engineering work.
EM: I know, but we have no choice at this point. Let's get moving.
***** Fast Forward *****
EVS 14 Ride and Drive
Junior Engineer 1: I'm amazed. This thing looks like a real car!
JE2: Well, yeah, if you don't get too close. But you're right, it's
better than I would have expected.
JE1: Has anybody said anything about the finish?
JE2: A few minor comments. Most are more interested in the overall
concept.
JE1: [looking up at the next driver approaching] Hey, check out the
dude with the beard. Do you think he's Somebody?
JE2: You never know. Any one of these guys could decide to produce the
car.
JE1: Good luck! [walks off]
[driver walks up]
JW: Hi, I'm John Wayland ....
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Again, the story above is pure fiction. Based loosely on fact - similar
events have happened to me over and over again. It is not intended as a
rebuttal to John, only to give a feel for what it takes to get a product
released, and what a royal pain it is to have a show interrupt a
project. Note that the Marketing guys are seemingly portrayed here as
the bad guys, but their decision might very well have been the best one
for the company.
One thing that I hope leaps out at everyone is the fact that if you're
dealing with an organization, even a small one, coordination of efforts
is a monumental task. This is extremely important for small-time
operators to understand. Life is easy for a hobbyist working by
himself, satisfying only himself. Rick Woodbury's organization is tiny,
and I'll bet he has some tales to tell that would curl your hair.
What you see is not necessarily the whole story.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hydrogen gas?
My CO detector went off while charging the TEVan with equalization.
My wife called the fire department at 2AM. They didn't know if the
charging van
would cause it to signal (although it was the primary suspect). I sent
an email to a
CO detector mfg. the next day and they confirmed it was most likely
caused by
the van charging.
Anyhow, this may be a cheap hydrogen detector for EV charging.
Rod
Dave Davidson wrote:
At your figures (comes to 12.5 amps at 240 volts), you'll need at
least 600Ah capacity at 240 volts usable capacity for 48 hours and you
can figure your loads will increase greatly over what you initially
figure on. We have some huge UPS systems at work and mostly use the
huge Exide cells. I'm not directly involved with them so don't know
the exact sizes, but we'll have a rooms full of batteries, usually
each string is 480 volts. Generally, the largest UPS systems we use
will have 240 large 2V cells (each cell is weighs about 300 pounds)
mounted in large racks. Looking at the Exide web site, they have a
huge selection of batteries for this type service, some with a 20 year
rated life, and up to 12,000Ah or better. I'm sure there are many
other manufacturers with similar products. Don't know anything about
the inverters.
I also recommend you set aside a battery room inside the building so
you can keep the batteries warm. You will need an exhaust vent, but
you generally won't have much hydrogen generated unless you've really
discharged them and are then recharging them. While on float, you'll
see very little if any hydrogen generated. Having said this, there
are fire codes and building codes which will have to be followed and
can vary by jurisdiction, so I suggest you contact an expert in your
area for help. Your local Fire Marshall would probably be a good start.
Hope this gives you a start.
Dave Davidson
Laurel, Maryland
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: OT backup battery system
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:00:54 -0500
Hi All,
Those of you who follow the news/weather will have heard about (or been
caught in) the massive Ice storm that left over 2 million people in
NC/SC
without power.
My School was without power for about 5 days. The powers that be
here want
us to try and put together a battery backup system that will keep our
Servers, phones, and alarm systems on long term battery backup (say
at least
48 hours).
Right now, we only have "standard" ups power which is generally
exhausted in
anywhere from 7 minutes to 1/2 hour (depending on which battery bank
it is
on).
I'm trying to get an estimate of how much power we need to provide
and the
other specs, but if any of you folks with off grid systems would be
willing
to help me design and purchase a system I'd appreciate it.
Just FYI according to a few back of the envelope calcs I did, we are
going
to need a system to provide somewhere between 2 and 3 kw for 48 hours.
Looks like I'll be building a new outbuilding just for the bats...
Thanks in advance,
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of John Lussmyer
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 1:24 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Used Optima YT's for sale - breaking up my pack
At 01:14 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) stated:
>If I lived nearby, I might pay $20 each for these. Of course others
might
>be willing to pay more, but that's what they'd be worth to me.
heck, if that's all they are worth, then there won't be any point in
selling them. Not even worth my labor to carry them out of the shop.
If I can't sell them for something worthwhile, I'll just use them as
starting batteries, or as UPS batteries since they are still quite good.
Sure seems like somebody with a damaged/dead YT would rather pay $80
for a
useable replacement rather than $172 for a new one. I know that
there are
people who use them long after they've dropped below 80% capacity!
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
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