EV Digest 2478
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) OT backup battery system
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) charging rate
by "Joseph Miller"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: OT backup battery system
by Steve Gaarder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Moving A Rabbit
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Life as a Development Engineer (long)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: charging rate
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) liquid heater tanks
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) How hot a charger is needed?
by "Joseph Miller"<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: charging rate
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: How hot a charger is needed?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: How hot a charger is needed?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Moving A Rabbit
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) New US battery model?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Subject: Battery Trailer was: Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by Peter A VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) cONTROLLER 4 SALE
by "jack gretta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Subject: Battery Trailer was: Re: Beefing up a Neon to convert.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: liquid heater tanks
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Speak for yourself! Everything I do turns to mud - especially
these last couple of weeks when I was finally forced at
knifepoint to finish drywalling the bedroom and bathroom in time
for the kids to come for Christmas.
Easy??? My poor car is freezing in the dark while I'm worrying
about Christmas! Humbug!
And what happens when you don't satisfy only yourself, eh? You
redo it, then you redo it again. Before you know it, you're
driving a "rolling science project". (BTW, just what do you
people have against the RSP?)
On the bright side, Rich said he would have my '50 ready in time
for my son to pick it up and bring it up here. Charging heaven
at last! And I got confirmed holidays next June for the week of
the REV-2003 show in Vancouver.
Mike Hoskinson
No time = No progress = No happy.
(Tongue in cheek at the end of a long busy day at the day job.)
I'll get some pictures of my RSP this weekend and put them on the
web site. Kinda grim looking so far, but I really just have a
whole bunch of body panels and things to bolt on.
Chris Tromley wrote:
(good story cut out)
Life is easy for a hobbyist working by
himself, satisfying only himself.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need a diesal generator. Don't use batteries for this application.
Do what the pros do, get a generator. There is no data center anywhere
that would try to run for 48 hours on battery power. It costs too darn
much.
>> From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: OT backup battery system
>> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:00:54 -0500
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Those of you who follow the news/weather will have heard about (or been
>> caught in) the massive Ice storm that left over 2 million people in
>> NC/SC
>> without power.
>>
>> My School was without power for about 5 days. The powers that be
>> here want
>> us to try and put together a battery backup system that will keep our
>> Servers, phones, and alarm systems on long term battery backup (say
>> at least
>> 48 hours).
>>
>> Right now, we only have "standard" ups power which is generally
>> exhausted in
>> anywhere from 7 minutes to 1/2 hour (depending on which battery bank
>> it is
>> on).
>>
>> I'm trying to get an estimate of how much power we need to provide
>> and the
>> other specs, but if any of you folks with off grid systems would be
>> willing
>> to help me design and purchase a system I'd appreciate it.
>>
>> Just FYI according to a few back of the envelope calcs I did, we are
>> going
>> to need a system to provide somewhere between 2 and 3 kw for 48 hours.
>>
>> Looks like I'll be building a new outbuilding just for the bats...
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>> James F. Jarrett
>> Information Systems Associate
>> Charlotte Country Day School
>> (704)943-4562
>>
>> I haven't lost my mind; it's backed up on tape somewhere.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi: I have a Rabbit with 20 US-125 batteries, and a 30 mile commute,
frequently draining the pack by my return if any side trips added in. The max
charge rate I get out of the Russco charger is 10 amps. The batteries are 225
AH capacity. Is there a long term (bad) consequence to charging at this lower
rate?
Thanks
Joe
"White Rabbit" `81 Rabbit Pickup
www.austinev.org/evalbum/390.html
Joe Miller KI7WV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out the Trace 4024 or 4048 inverter/chargers. They look like just
the thing for making a large UPS at a reasonable cost. Add some solar
panels and you could run indefinitely...
Steve Gaarder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
West coast vehicles are in so much better condition body wise. The motors
are usually not in as good a condition. That doesn't matter when you are
talking glider. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter A VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: Moving A Rabbit
> Buy one locally.
> It would be cheaper to buy a working Rabbit in Missouri than it would be
> to move one out from Oregon.
>
> I think a working rabbit in decent shape runs about $500 (unless it's a
> convertable)
>
> On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 10:46, Don Buckshot wrote:
> > Fellow listers,
> >
> > I am trying to arrange to move a EV Rabbit glider from Oregon to
Missouri.
> >
> > My question is: Does anyone on this list know how to get it here cheap?
> >
> > Perhaps someone would be planning a trip to the Midwest from that area
in
> > the next month or two and be willing to tow it in this direction for a
small
> > fee? I just can't work out driving that far west to pick it up and the
> > trucking cost would be $850 or more. Again it is just a glider.
> >
> > Any suggestions, anyone?
> >
> > Don Buckshot
> > Kansas City, MO
> > 816-582-6891
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Dec 2002 at 11:14, Chad Peddy wrote:
> Tow a trailer.
Olaf Bleck and Team New England have done this at least twice in the Tour de
Sol, hauling a trailer full of batteries behind a normally-fitted Solectria
Force. They did very well, something over 150 miles range IIRC.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Dec 2002 at 12:11, David C. Navas wrote:
> I don't doubt that by
> the end of this project, some large corporate entity will come in,
> promise huge funding, but "only if we're allowed to tweak a few things
> here and there."
Something similar to that has already happened with the Sunrise. A major
organization was involved. You can read about it in Joe Sherman's book on
James Worden and Solectria, "Charging Ahead."
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
'91 Solectria Force - '91 EVEscort - ''70 Elec-trak
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"Twenty years ago, one out of every six federal tax dollars was generated by
a
corporation. That has now fallen to about one out of every 10."
-- Arianna Huffington, Salon Magazine
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--- Begin Message ---
Joseph Miller wrote:
> I have a Rabbit with 20 US-125 batteries, and a 30 mile commute,
> frequently draining the pack by my return if any side trips added in.
> The max charge rate I get out of the Russco charger is 10 amps. The
> batteries are 225 AH capacity. Is there a long term (bad) consequence
> to charging at this lower rate?
Simple answer: No. They'll be just fine with 10 amps as the max charging
rate, as long as you let them charge long enough to get full.
You're more likely to wear them out from the deep discharges first. And,
you may not have enough time overnight to reach full charge every day if
you're draining them too deeply.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in progress). I
plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V) in a
triangle pattern. Two elements will be DC driven off of the pack, with a
contactor and arc suppression, while the third will be used for pre-heating
while charging (120/240 VAC). (Once you make it large enough for two heater
elements, you can get the third one in without increasing the diameter of
the tank). The pre-heating should help get me off to a fast defrost on these
cold and humid Oregon mornings.
My question is, what materials do folks use for the tank?
I was thinking of 4" diameter ABS PVC pipe with end caps, perhaps with a
metal lining inside.
3/4" OD copper pipes would let the coolant in and out, and I'll be using a
small 12VDC pump rated to 210 degrees F.
Thoughts, concerns, or recommendations?
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it necessary to charge at C/10 rates in order to prevent "Bad Things" from
happening to my battery pack? I am using (20) US-125 batteries and the Russco
charger maxes out at around 10 amps charging rate. These batteries are
nominally rated at 225 AH capacity. I have read in prior postings that the
charge should be delivered in 5 hours, but am not sure if this is to prevent
sulfation, or for some other reason.
Thanks to all, Joe.
"White Rabbit" `81 Rabbit Pickup
www.austinev.org/evalbum/390.html
Joe Miller KI7WV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can say I have not suffered any ill battery effects from
charging at low currents all the way to high (100+ amp)
charging currents. But I use smart chargers that taper the
charging current at the correct SOC (state of charge)
points and that have a multi-stage charging algorythm
design.
I have used a K&W BC-20 to charge my pack. They will
do the job of charging when set according to the
instructions, but they do not do a finishing (over)
charge as described in Kitty Roden's battery report.
You can manually over charge but you have to remember
to reset the charger afterward to the correct settings.
A K&W or a Russco charger is usually seen in older
conversions that went cheap on the charger. I recommend
that people design their EV conversion to use a smart
charger instead of one of these light dimmer chargers.
If you get a PFC charger, with an AVCON adaptor you can
use the public EV charging.
-Bruce
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--- Begin Message ---
There are some indications that periodic high-current charging is
beneficial. And I don't mean just c/10! Nawaz Qureshi posted this comment
a while back:
"Also, 2 to 3C DC pulse for 15 seconds or so at the start of the charge
helps, as it breaks the insulating lead sulfate grid/active material barrier
layer."
There's some experience indicating that something of this nature is just
about essential for Hawker Genesis batteries. It's probably a lot less
important for your US-125s though.
I think the main benefit of high current bulk charging is that it gets you
back on the road sooner.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How hot a charger is needed? I like the higher the
better. Using three 14-50 outlets I like to pump
over 12kw.
But reading your POST further, I sse that isn't your
point.
...
I use pulsers to prevent sulfation
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=acid+battery+pulser
I have found a 5 amp charge current to be a minimum
flow to charge a pack. Any lower and the pack does not
reach a voltage to shut off the charger that is set
for a 10 amp (or higher) charge current.
I assume the Russco current meter is similar to the
K&W BC-20. The meter current reading is not the same
as the actual DC current. I suggest you get a clamp on
DC amp meter to really know what you are getting.
Also, those light dimmer chargers are so wasteful
because their power factor correction (PFC) is so low.
A high PFC rating means the power is going to the pack
and not wasted as heat, cooking plugs, cords, breakers,
etc.
I will assume that you are not going to run out and
buy a better charger that has a higher PFC, and a
multi-stage charging algorithm.
So, the charging current is not what I would be concerned
about when using a light dimmer charger. Their 20 amps
is not a problem. I have charged over 100 amps and have
had no problems.
The problem with using a light dimmer charger is making
sure the charge is to set correctly. If it isn't, it will
cook, overheat, and dry out the pack.
A SJEAA member went over to an EV drivers home to help
find out why the driver was only getting 20 miles out
of a 50 mile pack. Besides bad wiring, connections,
tires, dragging brakes, the biggest problem was the K&W
BC-20 was not set correctly. The guy aged the pack.
If a K&W BC-20 or Russco is set correctly, all is fine.
The problem found, is EV driver do not have them set
correctly, thus killing the pack.
Lastly, never go cheap on water. I use distilled water.
I get it for $1 a gallon plastic containers at grocery
stores. You can kill your pack by buying vendo machine
water.
Wet-cell EV drivers should be doing monthly battery
maintenance. This is more than just watering. You are
neutralizing/cleaning, checking the tightness of
connections, looking for overheated cables and
connections, watering, and then cleaning again.
At one of the Silicon Valley EAA Rallies, a new EV
driver came in and showed us his dirty, corroded,
overheat cooked pack. I explained to him that battery
maintenance just isn't that hard:
-Before the caps are removed, I spray the tops of the
batteries with a blue window cleaner (windex type)
and wipe them down.
This not only cleans the area, but the cleaner is a
mild base that neutralizes acid. This action also
puts you close to the batteries, cables and
connections to check them.
-I wet a paper towel near the batteries to set the caps
on, and remove half the caps from the batteries I am
going water.
-I use a plastic sprayer with the spray tip removed, and
dedicated for watering batteries (distilled water only).
I fill to the ring inside the cell opening.
-I take the other half of the caps off and place them on
the already watered cells.
-After watering the last cells, I replace the caps, and
spray again to clean and neutralize. This gets rid of
the ICE road grime and reduces pack leakage current to
nil.
-Bruce
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Evlist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
> On Fri, 2002-12-13 at 11:57, Bob Rice wrote:
> > But the issue EVerybody sidesteps here is, in my book. Pumping all
the
> > burned oil into the AIR, DAMN it! They don't see that end of it. It
isn't
> > really that inportant, WHERE it comes from, it is being dumped into that
few
> > mile thick atmosphere that we NEED to exist on Earth. I have sorta
gotten
> > used to breathing, hope to be able to enjoy this privilidge as long as I
> > need it, in this life. I hope the hell that the oil runs out for that
> > reason, more than any other. This would force meaningful research and
> > development to other, cleaner things.
>
> I understand your point, but we don't need it to run out. Just have the
> gas prices go back up to $2.25+ where it was a while back, and then stay
> there for a year or three, and you'll see a LOT of work toward more
> "alternative" vehicles. Then the "general" consumers would finally
> demand it - even if we had a million years worth of oil left.
>
> Lonnie
>
Hi All;
Well, Lonnie, go higher<g>! Gas in Europe is double that, now,. and I
don't think the roads are swarming with EV's.?! Well, France, maybe? But
I'l;l bet there arent as many @#$% SUV's there, except as commercial
vehicles. I believe gas would be about the same there as here,pricewise, if
the taxes were the same?. Maybe gas tax money goes to fund Europe's superb
RR system. I know a 5 sense a gal tax could go along way toward upgrading
Amtrak At least get it back to 1950's speeds. I mean the lines not in
Northeast Corridor.Acela electric country.Chi-PDX SF-chicago Chi-LaxOld
Super Chief country.
Off trak on trak, again.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I was eye-balling a vehicle to be brought from the
East to the West, the seller said the added cost was $800.
The best way to get a quote is to talk the the transporter.
http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=ship+car+across
I have rented a flat bed and tow vehicle from Uhaul. It is
hard to get one scheduled in this SF area. It was not cheap.
I was was only hauling a short distance and a couple days.
The cost exceeded $1000. The drive was slow and wild (the
tow vehicle steering was loose).
For your needs, I recommend you look at the link I provides
to find a a shipper. Let us know how it goes, and the costs.
-Bruce
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod;
Gee! Thanks. I use it as a expression, but the thought has crossed my
mind. Btw what's a PDF? I've been missing something?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
> Bob,
> "in my book",
> Do you have something published or on PDF?
> I would like to read it.
> Rod
>
> Bob Rice wrote:
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: Evlist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:08 PM
> >Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 21:35, Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
> >>>hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Correct. And only the government can authorize releasing oil from the
> >>reserve in times of crisis.
> >>
> >> Hi All;
> >>
> >>
> >
> > But the issue EVerybody sidesteps here is, in my book. Pumping all
the
> >burned oil into the AIR, DAMN it! They don't see that end of it. It isn't
> >really that inportant, WHERE it comes from, it is being dumped into that
few
> >mile thick atmosphere that we NEED to exist on Earth. I have sorta gotten
> >used to breathing, hope to be able to enjoy this privilidge as long as I
> >need it, in this life. I hope the hell that the oil runs out for that
> >reason, more than any other. This would force meaningful research and
> >development to other, cleaner things.
> >
> > INHO
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Heres a crankshaft shot for a new hybrid car. Wonder where they got all
the cute little guyz to inspect it?<g>! Was forwarded to me by a guy at work
that knew that I like Big machinery. I think it is an engine for the Big
Inch pipeline to pump. Guess What? Oil for EVerybody elses cars.Would likwe
to see the rest of it before they put it together.
Diseaseling along
Bob
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was wondering about 'what if' I bought a 120VDC truck
conversion. It would likely need upgrading (charger,
controller, etc). I would like to move the pack voltage
up to improve efficiency (less IR loss) and performance
(acceleration).
My blazer was a 120VAC design. I got 45 miles range on
flat at a constant 55 mph. Acceleration in stop and go
is sluggish.
So I looked at the USbattery product page
http://www.usbattery.com/6vglfcr.htm
If I took the battery pack weight
120 VDC = 20 US125 batteries
20 x 67lbs = 1340
If I bumped the pack voltage up to 144 VDC (22 6v batts)
but tried to keep the same pack weight
1340 / 24 = 55.83
I would need a battery that weighs 56 lbs.
That page shows a US battery model I had not seen before
model ahs mins L W H lbs
US-1800 201 100 10 1/4 7 1/8 11 1/8 56
If the truck had the room, an addition battery rack could
be added to hold four more batteries.
The charger, controller, and DC2DC would need to be
matched to the 144VDC pack voltage.
The T105 is not acid (electrolyte) starved (compared to
the T125 and even more so to the T145). The US-2000 is
the T105 equivalent. Kitty Roden had very good performance
in her 144VDC Porche using T105s.
If the US-1800 is not acid starved, this could offer a
144VDC solution to those that have the room for four
more batteries but don't want the weight.
Its something to consider.
-Bruce
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2002-12-14 at 01:23, Bob Rice wrote:
> From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > I understand your point, but we don't need it to run out.
> > Just have the gas prices go back up to $2.25+ where it was
> > a while back, and then stay there for a year or three, and
> > you'll see a LOT of work toward more "alternative"
> > vehicles. Then the "general" consumers would finally
> > demand it - even if we had a million years worth of oil
> > left.
>
> Well, Lonnie, go higher<g>! Gas in Europe is double that, now,. and
> I don't think the roads are swarming with EV's.?!
Two differences. We Americans start complaining a lot earlier, and we
travel more miles (bigger country). Basically, it would cramp our
lifestyle, and we don't like somebody cramping our lifestyle. It makes
us want to bomb somebody. ;-)
That last time when it went $2.25 around here, I heard a LOT of
complaining within a week. Some was even coming from MY mouth (and I
don't use a lot of gas). :-)
Notice that I didn't mention EVs directly (well now that I did, does
that make this thread back on topic? ;), I said "alternative".
Anyway.... back to the "on-topic" discussions......
Lonnie
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--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
PDF is Portable Document Format. A very high percentage of documents use
this format on the web since the reader is free.
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep.html
Rod
Bob Rice wrote:
Hi Rod;
Gee! Thanks. I use it as a expression, but the thought has crossed my
mind. Btw what's a PDF? I've been missing something?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
Bob,
"in my book",
Do you have something published or on PDF?
I would like to read it.
Rod
Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Evlist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 21:35, Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
Unless I'm entirely mistaken, the reserve is how much oil we have on
hand that has already been pumped out of the ground.
Correct. And only the government can authorize releasing oil from the
reserve in times of crisis.
Hi All;
But the issue EVerybody sidesteps here is, in my book. Pumping all
the
burned oil into the AIR, DAMN it! They don't see that end of it. It isn't
really that inportant, WHERE it comes from, it is being dumped into that
few
mile thick atmosphere that we NEED to exist on Earth. I have sorta gotten
used to breathing, hope to be able to enjoy this privilidge as long as I
need it, in this life. I hope the hell that the oil runs out for that
reason, more than any other. This would force meaningful research and
development to other, cleaner things.
INHO
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, meant to send this to the entire list
I've thought about this too. What about battery balancing? What if you just
used it once a week? I would of course keep it fully charged but what would
happen if after a few months when the trailer pack is in better shape than
the pack internal to the car? Instead of a trailer that is the same size as
and run in parralel to the pack internal to the car, what about, for
example, a 72volt pack made up of batteries that are differnt than the
internals (maybe 8 volters to keep the trailer small) run in series behind
what you have in the car. Thanks for the info guys.
John David
-----Original Message-----
From: John Bryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, December 13, 2002 8:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chad Peddy wrote:
> I have designed a great battery trailer, with specks that a
> small car can handle. The extra weight is on the trailer and not on the
> car.
>
> Trailer weight 1700lbs.
> 24 6volt batts
> breakaway axle breaks
> breakaway power disconnect (still perfecting)
> relatively small,(pulled similar behind a 914)
I've given some thought to this too, and was thinking about
how the trailer should have regen if the car does not. Most of our cars
don't have regen, and we don't need it for the shorter trips. With
a range extending trailer, many would be lured into those trips over
the mountain and could benefit from the regen, maybe even reqire it
to be safe with the added weight of the trailer. Maybe a modular trailer
design would be nice to operate as:
1. Empty trailer for the value of the regen for a certain situation.
a. There's your generator on the wheel.
2. Extra cargo + regen
3. Extra battery pack for long range EV with regen.
4. Generator for hybrid.
....John
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To me it would seem that if we funned the "war on T" with a gas tax this
would kill 2 birds with one stone . The pres comes out and say " this war
is costing a lot we got to raise money and ,,,,,," as the price goes up
less is used and more EV's ... When I talk to people after the tell me how
we should bomb them to H and I say ya and maybe even stop buying oil from
them to I get a "ya we should do that to" so there is some thinking going on
..
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: from a sheer livejournal entry - kinda OT, about oil
> On Sat, 2002-12-14 at 01:23, Bob Rice wrote:
> > From: Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > I understand your point, but we don't need it to run out.
> > > Just have the gas prices go back up to $2.25+ where it was
> > > a while back, and then stay there for a year or three, and
> > > you'll see a LOT of work toward more "alternative"
> > > vehicles. Then the "general" consumers would finally
> > > demand it - even if we had a million years worth of oil
> > > left.
> >
> > Well, Lonnie, go higher<g>! Gas in Europe is double that, now,. and
> > I don't think the roads are swarming with EV's.?!
>
> Two differences. We Americans start complaining a lot earlier, and we
> travel more miles (bigger country). Basically, it would cramp our
> lifestyle, and we don't like somebody cramping our lifestyle. It makes
> us want to bomb somebody. ;-)
>
> That last time when it went $2.25 around here, I heard a LOT of
> complaining within a week. Some was even coming from MY mouth (and I
> don't use a lot of gas). :-)
>
> Notice that I didn't mention EVs directly (well now that I did, does
> that make this thread back on topic? ;), I said "alternative".
>
> Anyway.... back to the "on-topic" discussions......
>
> Lonnie
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2002-12-11 at 19:08, Vince wrote:
>
> Peter wrote:
>
> > from that article:
> > "Why generate electricity twice, first to produce electricity for the
> > process of electrolysis and then to produce power, heat and light by
> > way of a fuel cell? The reason is that electricity doesn't store."
> >
> > Damn, my truck stopped working as soon as I read that. And here I
> > thought that, using todays technology, electricity stores more
> > readily, safer, and more efficiently than hydrogen does. Silly me.
>
> I assume he meant on a mass scale. You have someplace you can store a few hundred
>kilowatts of electricity for an extended period of
> time ?
>
> Besides, the thrust of his article is to decentralize the production of hydrogen AND
>electricity.
>
Even on a mass scale batteries are a better solution than hydrogen
(using current technology). However if you want truly massive storage
there are other even better solutions. Pumped Hydro, huge gyros, etc.
And I agree the thrust was on decentralization, another (generally) bad
idea. Decentralization increases costs and reduces production
efficiency. It's true that this would reduce distribution losses, but
these are more than made up by the efficiency of scale.
If we had high efficiency solar power, and high efficiency electrolysis
and high efficiency fuel cells then this idea might be workable. My
impression is that were are AT LEAST 50 years away from this technology.
50 years from now we will probably have better battery technology which
would likely make it still better than hydrogen storage in a distributed
setup.
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--- Begin Message ---
I have 1 curtis 1221c 72 to 120 400 amp controller. just rebuilt by
Golftech industries 1 year garantee, 1 curtis PB-6 speed control pot,
and 1 Westberg/mfg.Inc state of charge meter. $850.00 FOB Chester Ct
06412.
Call Jack Gretta 860 526 9085 Phone or FAX.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
send me the pic Bob - I've got some web space to host it on... Post a link here
as soon as it's up...
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:08 AM
Subject: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
Hi All;
Heres a crankshaft shot for a new hybrid car. Wonder where they got all
the cute little guyz to inspect it?<g>! Was forwarded to me by a guy at work
that knew that I like Big machinery. I think it is an engine for the Big
Inch pipeline to pump. Guess What? Oil for EVerybody elses cars.Would likwe
to see the rest of it before they put it together.
Diseaseling along
Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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Hi James;
Gees! I thought there was a link to click on? Duh! I think the Listserv
shucks them from the message? i'll try again
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: James Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
> send me the pic Bob - I've got some web space to host it on... Post a link
here
> as soon as it's up...
>
> James
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 8:08 AM
> Subject: crank.jpg.jpg OT a bit
>
>
> Hi All;
>
> Heres a crankshaft shot for a new hybrid car. Wonder where they got
all
> the cute little guyz to inspect it?<g>! Was forwarded to me by a guy at
work
> that knew that I like Big machinery. I think it is an engine for the Big
> Inch pipeline to pump. Guess What? Oil for EVerybody elses cars.Would
likwe
> to see the rest of it before they put it together.
>
> Diseaseling along
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
>
>
> * LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
>
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Shelton, John D. AW2 wrote:
> What about battery balancing?
If you have two different battery packs, you have in effect created a
hybrid. There are two sources of power for propulsion. That means you
can draw power from one, or the other, or both. If batteries, you even
have the option of charging one with power from the other pack.
On the one hand, this creates lots of opportunities to do clever things.
For example, have different voltage packs, or use small high-peak-power
batteries for accelleration, and large high-capacity batteries for
range.
But it also adds complexity, since you now need two chargers, and two
controllers, and some control system to decide when to use each pack.
The simplest scheme (two identical packs) lets you simply parallel them.
This avoids the need for two chargers and two controllers, but you also
lose most of the advantages. As you pointed out, if one pack is in a
trailer that's not always used, it will age differently and you will
have balance problems. You can deal with it manually (monitor each pack
and charge them separately with the one charger), or set up an automatic
system that monitors them all and controls charging/discharging
accordingly.
But once you decide to have an automatic system, it opens the door to
deliberately having two different kinds of pack, each optimized for a
different purpose. You might have a "performance" pack in the car, and a
"range" pack in the trailer. The range pack provides roughly constant
current while driving, and the accelleration pack provides the high peak
current for accelleration, and then gets recharged while stopped or
coasting. This requires an additional charger and/or controller.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter A VanDerWal wrote:
> Even on a mass scale batteries are a better solution than hydrogen
> (using current technology).
It's been said that the Perfect is the enemy of the Good. People fail to
adopt a Good solution because they are waiting for a Perfect one to come
along. While they wait, they keep using a Bad solution.
This is what I see wrong with hydrogen-fuelled cars. It isn't perfected,
so we can't actually implement it. The auto companies are using hydrogen
as a Perfect solution to steer us away from EVs, which are a Good
solution we can use now.
> And I agree the thrust was on decentralization, another (generally)
> bad idea. Decentralization increases costs and reduces production
> efficiency.
Some kinds of generation work best when decentralized. Wind and solar
require large area collectors, which are really lots of small collectors
anyway. They depend on local weather conditions, so it smooths out the
peaks and valleys in power production to spread them out geographically.
Efficiency is not a big factor, since there is an excess of wind and
solar energy available at most sites. So they can be located close to
where the power is actually needed, to minimize transportation losses.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary Graunke wrote:
> I'm working on adding a heater to my insight conversion (in progress).
> I plan on using 3 commodity water heater elements (240V at 1500V)...
> My question is, what materials do folks use for the tank?... I was
> thinking of 4" diameter ABS PVC pipe with end caps, perhaps with a
> metal lining inside. 3/4" OD copper pipes would let the coolant in
> and out, and I'll be using a small 12VDC pump rated to 210 degrees F.
> Thoughts, concerns, or recommendations?
My first thought is that 4500w of heat in one small space is a LOT. I
would never put this much heat in anything but a metal container!
Plastics will melt and burn!
Second, even running only two elements (3000w), it will be easy for it
to boil water. Your 210 deg.F rated pump is not going to be adequate.
Look for pumps rated for automotive engine coolant, which can easily hit
230 deg.F.
Third, give a LOT of thought to safety. What if it runs low on water?
What if a hose kinks, restricting the flow? What if a switch fails and
the heating element is stuck "on"? You need fail-safe shutoff systems
for all of these, PLUS a backup system in case the primary system fails.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
