EV Digest 2489

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Prius hacking.
        by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) kids say the darndest things
        by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) RE: OT - Re: hydrogen economy
        by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) RE: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by Don Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) RE: ceramic heater thoughts...
        by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
        by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) RE: Battery Charger for Nickel Zinc
        by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) RE: EV in movie?
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) OT: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: ceramic heater thoughts...
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
        by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) RE: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 16) Re: ceramic heater thoughts...
        by Jeremy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: EV digest 2488
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Best Tires for EV?
        by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) RE: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...
        by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: OT: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Ranger EVs Still Around?
        by Mason Convey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 23) Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
        by "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The electric motor i think is intermittent duty.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 9:38 PM
Subject: Prius hacking.


> According Alec Brooks the Prius is capable of 41mph under pure electric
and
> that is governed.  With the proper batteries it would be the same weight
as
> the orginal Prius and have over 100 miles range.  Anybody else have info
on
> the Prius systems and is it really possible to make it a pure battery
> electric with its stock motor.  Lawrence Rhodes..
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We stopped to look at a VW bug yesterday.  It wasn't in the greatest shape,
and had no back seat, among other things.  This would be a family decision,
so my 3 year old daughter Megan and I were to take the first test drive.  If
I had gone through with the test drive, my wife and other daughter would
have taken one next.

A little background here:  My wife and daughters have been using the escort
as their primary daytime car, while we wait on insurance action for a
damaged vehicle.  The kids are very used to it, and they like the fact they
can "sneak up" on local wildlife.  They even like it so much that they
pestered us into getting them "their own electric car" (a used powerwheels).

Back at the VW, we strapped Megan into her car seat on the passenger side,
and I got in and started the engine.  I decided to not go any farther when I
couldn't get it to shift into reverse.  At that point, being unused to a
clutch that hinged from the floor, rather than from the dash, I accidentally
let it up too far and killed the engine.  At that point, Megan said "Daddy,
it can't work.  It needs batteries!"


David Brandt


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me state up front that I have no interest or intention of 
debating this issue, however...

On Wednesday, December 18, 2002 3:38 AM, Vince 
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:

>
> Peter wrote:

[snip]

> > Currently Sodium Borohydride is rather expensive
> > to make and costs about $50 to $100 per kg.  It is
> > possible to reverse the"Millennium Cell" process
> > however their patented recycling method has be
> > PROVEN to be unworkable.
>
> Unworkable ? That would be news to DaimlerChrysler. As of nine days
> ago, they have announced:
>
> "Last year, DaimlerChrysler became the first automaker to produce a
> vehicle using Millennium Cell's sodium borohydride-based
> Hydrogen on Demand(TM) fuel system.
>
> "The success of the Natrium(TM) Town & Country minivan HAS EXCEEDED
> OUR EXPECTATIONS and we are now focusing on further
> optimizing the fuel system in the areas of heat and water
> management," said Thomas Moore, Vice President, DaimlerChrysler's
> Liberty &
> Technical Affairs research and development group. Millennium Cell
> and DaimlerChrysler were recognized by Popular Science with a 2002
>
> Best of What's New Award for the successful solution of hydrogen
> fuel delivery used in the Natrium."

As a dis-interested bystander to this debate, perhaps it is easier 
for me to see this, but NOTHING in what you have quoted contradicts 
what Peter stated.  NOWHERE is the recycling of the spent borohydride 
mentioned: the success of the fuel cell MINIVAN, not the borohydride 
recycling system is what exceeded DC's expectations (and who knows 
just what those were, but it is not unlikely that they were more 
concered with reliability of the VEHICLE and its power/range than the 
success or efficiency of recycling the spent borohydride).

Likewise, the "Best of What's New Award" (sounds suspiciously like an 
award bestowed by PopSci, not exactly a widely respected journal 
anyway) is for the DELIVERY of hydrogen in the vehicle; it does not 
address the recyling of the spent borohydride solution.

Peter has recognised that the borohydride storage system is a 
workable means for supplying hydrogen, and has merely pointed out 
that generating the hydrogen rich borohydride in the first place is 
energy intensive, and that recycling the spent solution has turned 
out to have some major challenges.

> > The only workable methods require huge amounts
> > of energy, temperatures above 200 degrees, that
> > sort of thing.
>
> Except the company states that it DOESN'T require high 
temperatures,
> and is a "low cost" and "simple" hydrogen storage system.

Again, Peter is specifically referring to the RECYCLING of the spend 
borohydride into a usable source of hydrogen, while the company is 
referring to the process of extracting hydrogen from the borohydride 
storage.  The borohydride solution itself may well be a low cost, low 
temperature, simple hydrogen storage means, however, the SYSTEM, 
including generation/recycling of the spent borohydride solution is 
not.  This is simple spin doctoring at work, same as how one 
continously hears about how the only exhaust from a fuel cell vehicle 
is water clean enough to drink, completely neglecting that this is 
only the case IF the vehicle is fueled from pure hydrogen and oxygen 
rather than a reformed hydrocarbon.

> In regards to the recycling, they state:
>
> "the borohydride fuel is converted to a borate solution, which is
> collected in a waste tank. This borate solution is recyclable into
> new
> borohydride fuel. Borohydride can be re-used indefinitely in this
> cycle."
>
> Are you contending that those are all misrepresentations ?

Peter did not state that it is IMPOSSIBLE to recycle the spent 
borohydride solution, just that it is inefficient and requires high 
temperatures.  The excerpt you quote merely states that it is 
POSSIBLE to recycle the spent borohydride solution; it does NOT 
comment on the efficiency or requirements of the process.  There does 
not appear to be a conflict between Peter's statements and 'their' 
statements.

Indeed, an excerpt you quoted along the way that stated that 
extraction of the hydrogen from the borohydride results in enough 
heat generation to boil some of the water off such that the hydrogen 
is at 100% relative humidity is a definite clue that Peter is right 
on the money: the heat being released is additional ENERGY, and that 
energy had to have been input to the borohydride solution during its 
generation/recycling.

> BZZZZT.
>
> You're confused. The system doesn't make hydrogen. It merely stores
> hydrogen.

I'm sure Peter is quite well aware of how the system works.  It is 
clear to me that he described the electrolysis system efficiency as 
an example of a MORE efficient hydrogen storage system than Millenium 
Fuel's to ILLUSTRATE how the 85% pumped storage is a more efficient 
mass storage system than EITHER.

> Again, you're confused. It's not a fuel cell. It can potentially be
> mated to a fuel cell, but that's a separate discussion.

Peter's point is that your borohydride solution is NOT an energy 
storage system on its own; it merely stores hydrogen.  You must 
either combust that hydrogen or consume it in a fuel cell to obtain 
usable energy, so you MUST consider the efficiency of the fuel cell 
if you are going to meaningfully compare the efficiency of this 
energy storage system to (for example) pumped storage.  In both cases 
the output is electrical energy.

Now, can we please get back to discussing systems DIRECTLY relevant 
to electric vehicles?  This thread seems to be getting confused 
between MASS storage systems (which as has been pointed out, are not 
appropriate for mobile/vehicular applications), and energy storage 
alternatives to batteries (which MIGHT be relevant to our electric 
vehicles).

Cheers,

Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
> The Ghia is going to use a one controller per motor configuration.
> I did consider a series/parallel configuration but decided
> against it for reasons that had mostly to do with the odd number
> of motors.

This in itself is no problem. You can switch 3 motors in series or
parallel. It would be roughly equivalent to changing between two gears
with a 3:1 ratio (kind of a big jump; like 1st to 3rd).

I'd try something different; like leaving the armatures all in parallel,
but switching the fields either in series or parallel. This would give
you a closer "gear ratio". Series fields gives you the tremendous
starting torque, and parallel fields provides field weakening for more
torque at high rpm.

> As far as I know, there's no one controller on the market with enough
> power to saturate all three motors.

Igor, bring me the knife switch... :-)

> One controller per motor is by far the most resilient configuration
> according to Otmar and Damon, the undisputed controller experts.

I agree. No particular problems with getting them to share the torque or
power.

> The planned voltage now is still 336v.

Now, *that* will be a challenge!
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, you are failing to see the big picture here. I've heard that big oil
originally funded the Tilley car to prove that electric cars aren't viable.
It's quite obvious that now that they think he really is on to something
they used a front corporation to offer to buy him out and suppress the
technology. That is why they want no further demonstrations. It's just like
the micro-nano technology that was recently suppressed for fuel injectors.
The invention was a screen so fine and so sharp that it literally split
water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen so that an automobile could run on
pure water. No one has heard of this technology since. Bruce is a great guy
and I feel he has unwittingly and unknowingly become a dupe for the big
oilies.

Roderick

Roderick Wilde,  President,  EV Parts Inc.
         Your Online EV Superstore
               www.evparts.com
        1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 425-672-7977  Fax: 425-672-7907
        18908 Highway 99, Suite B
       Lynnwood, WA  98036-5218
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian


> At 04:08 AM 12/17/02, you wrote:
>
> >         I recently got an email from Bruce Meland about his visit
> >to Tilley's, checking his website I found this writeup with lots
> >of pictures that you might enjoy:
> >
> >http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/delorean_ev2.html
> >
> >         Rumor has it that the figure the foreign company is
> >paying for the technology is high 10 figures.
>
>          "Disgruntled former investor" Hmm, this is interesting.
>
> First:
>          "A large foreign corporation approached the Tilley Foundation
> recently about doing extensive tests to verify the unusual claims of
> unusual distances achieved by the Electric DeLorean as well as the self
> generating device that powers their shop. "
>
> Then (in the same article):
>
>          "The foreign corporation asked Carl Tilley and the Tilley
> Foundation that no further demonstrations be made."
>
>          Do they want it tested, or not?
>
>          If you were investing in such a device, wouldn't you want lots of
> folks to know that it works so you can make lots of money selling them? A
> device that is demonstrated to work is worth a lot more than an unproven
> device.
>
>          I guess an EV is to an over-unity scam what a folded newspaper is
> to a three-card Monty scam.
>     _ /|        Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
>    \'o.O'     <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
>         U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> the micro-nano technology that was recently suppressed for 
> fuel injectors.
> The invention was a screen so fine and so sharp that it 
> literally split
> water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen so that an 
> automobile could run on
> pure water.

You *are* being sarcastic, right?  Something capable of physically splitting
molecular bonds, cute.

Don



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roderick Wilde [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:04 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
> 
> 
> Bill, you are failing to see the big picture here. I've heard 
> that big oil
> originally funded the Tilley car to prove that electric cars 
> aren't viable.
> It's quite obvious that now that they think he really is on 
> to something
> they used a front corporation to offer to buy him out and suppress the
> technology. That is why they want no further demonstrations. 
> It's just like
> the micro-nano technology that was recently suppressed for 
> fuel injectors.
> The invention was a screen so fine and so sharp that it 
> literally split
> water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen so that an 
> automobile could run on
> pure water. No one has heard of this technology since. Bruce 
> is a great guy
> and I feel he has unwittingly and unknowingly become a dupe 
> for the big
> oilies.
> 
> Roderick
> 
> Roderick Wilde,  President,  EV Parts Inc.
>          Your Online EV Superstore
>                www.evparts.com
>         1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting test results! If you can't test, it might be good to add a
thermal fuse (or "thermal cutoff") mounted on the core. The conductor
melts when it reaches the set temperature. Off hand I don't know what
temp and volt*amp ranges are readily available. They are also used in
clothes dryers. They might be in house hold ceramic space heaters. I've
used them on silicone heater blankets to prevent them from burning up in
case a thermostat failed.

In my previous testing of disc-type ceramics (not the finned radiator
type) they were very sensitive to imbalance when wired in series. The
hi-R unit hogged the voltage and >2:1 disparity in temperature developed
over time.

- GT

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Otmar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 12:27 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ceramic heater thoughts...
> 
> 
> At 12:13 AM -0500 12/18/02, Jeremy Green wrote:
> ....
> 
> >What's our thought on putting too much voltage through these?  I had
> >always thought that it would just make them run a little hotter but 
> >that they are pretty self limiting so it wouldn't be a problem. 
> >They never drew that much current from the pack  I think I probably 
> >got a maximum of about a 5 amp draw once it is heated up (from one 
> >core).
> >
> >So, do folks think?
> >
> >                             -Jeremy
> 
> Hello Jeremy,
> 
> The concern I have is this: what happens if the air flow is too small 
> and they get too hot?
> 
> One of the primary reasons for using these in EVs is that they are 
> self limiting and therefore provide some inherent safety in case the 
> blower fan should fail.
> 
> I've been studying ceramic PTC thermistors (not the heaters, just the 
> discs) lately since I use them in the Zilla precharger. I believe the 
> materials used are essentially the same though the values and 
> thresholds are sure to be different.
> 
> When a PTC thermistor gets hot, its resistance rises rapidly, but 
> only to a point. As it gets hotter still the resistance drops 
> severely. The units are designed never to reach this temperature when 
> used with rated voltage. If the applied voltage is too high and the 
> cooling (airflow) is not sufficient the unit may continue to heat 
> beyond the point at which the resistance starts to drop again and go 
> into a runaway mode. This can cause the unit to get hot enough to 
> melt steel. In my tests the discs would flame up briefly before 
> melting themselves away from the rest of the test fixture.
> 
> The discs I have are rated for 3 minutes at 50% overvoltage. I tried 
> to run them at 75% overvoltage with catastrophic failure. Other parts 
> which are UL listed are rated for 100% overvoltage and some others 
> from Europe actually are built for 300% overvoltage. I have no idea 
> if the heaters are required to meet the same standards. The voltage 
> ratings are AC RMS and so should be compared to the peak voltages you 
> expect to see on your system in DC.
> 
> If you want to test how safe it is, you could try running the unit at 
> max voltage with no airflow and see if it burns up. This may be 
> unpleasant.
> 
> Another option would be to contact the manufacturer and find out what 
> they can take.
> 
> As for wiring two modules in series, that is unlikely to help your 
> fault voltage issue (I tried it). One gets very hot while the other 
> stays cool, the hot one goes into runaway too quickly for the other 
> to save it.
> 
> It may be possible to series the multiple elements in each heater 
> itself for higher voltage ratings. The effectiveness of this depends 
> on the thermal connection between neighboring elements. Here is a 
> simple way to test if elements in series share voltage in a fault 
> condition: Wire them in series (such as by skipping every other 
> connection on the element) and then with no airflow and a safe 
> voltage on them (like 120V) check the voltage of the center terminal 
> when it is hot. If it is anywhere close to 1/2 the applied voltage 
> then they are sharing the voltage well.
> 
> The simpler way may be to inquire of the manufacturer as to the safe 
> voltage limits of the units.
> 
> I myself have some very nice units from 
> http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/Components/Heater.htm> l which I 
> am 
> planning to put in my high voltage 914. 
> Unfortunately I bought them a 
> long time ago and so they are rated for 144V. I'll have to see if 
> they hold 288V when the elements are in series.
> 
> -Otmar-
> 
http://www.CafeElectric.com/  Home of the Zilla. http://www.evcl.com/914
My electric 914 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A little slip there, I think that should be fields in parallel for
huge torque and in series for field weakening.

I'd vote for a fourth controller, powering all the fields separately
from the armatures. The "control algorithm" wouldn't have to be too
sophisticated:

0 to 5% of pedal brings fields to max allowed voltage
5% to 75% of pedal brings armatures to full voltage
75% to 100% of pedal weakens fields by 50% (or whatever doesn't arc)

This could be done by using three potboxes, with clever linkage and
adjustment. Downside is you'd be charting new territory -- a bigger
comfort and "safety" zone would be to do series setups like Berube,
Dube, Wilde, Otmar, Rudman, et al. I think the only sepex NEDRA racer
has been a Dodge TEV? It did win its class :) .

The pedal would have to be released carefully, because regen could be
very powerful (OK for a race car, maybe not for a street machine). It
would give you a small head start on charging the batteries for the
next run. You might have to have additional diodes that bypass the
controllers to allow the regen current to flow.

--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I'd try something different; like leaving the armatures all in
> parallel,
> but switching the fields either in series or parallel. This would
> give
> you a closer "gear ratio". Series fields gives you the tremendous
> starting torque, and parallel fields provides field weakening for
> more
> torque at high rpm.
> ...


=====


__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:

> Yes, I had looked at that charger [PFC 20] earlier.  But while it 
> looks very capable 
> of being de-tuned to the smaller amp requirements, it is 
> still too larger 
> for on-board use on a Motorcycle.

Hi Gordon,

An on-board charger for a motorcycle is a challenge, even if it's a big
bike.  Throw in the special requirements of charging Evercels, and you
have a very tall order.

The advantage of the PFC 20 is that Manzanita Micro (and friends) is
developing a system specifically for Evercels right now.  You're not
likely to find a charger that gives you less headaches.  Contact Rich
Rudman for details.

The only other option I can think of would rely on a level of design
capability that is way beyond my reach (OK, that doesn't take much).
Vicor makes the BatMod specifically for charging batteries.

http://www.vicr.com/products/datasheets/ds_batmod.pdf

They're small, light, powerful for their size, can be master/slaved for
higher output, and Vicor has a number of application notes that tell you
how to make your own smart charger.  As you would expect, they aren't
cheap - around $160 per module?

Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sharkey,

In "The One", alternate universe, it was a whole fleet of EVs - several
Corbin Sparrow, a Honda EV+, some others (can't remember) and some hybrid
Honda Insights. Looks like Honda and Corbin may have sponsored some by
placing their vehicles, but absent were GM, Ford, Chrysler, Nisson and
Toyota. I guess they didn't want to publicise the success of EVs.

-Ed T

-----Original Message-----
From: Sharkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 5:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: EV in movie?


Is this a "sightings" thread?

How about the small flock of Sparrows in the last scene of "The One" with
Jet Li? The producer was going for a parallel "dimension look", so cute,
curvy little motor bike cars were the choice. Uninitiated viewers wouldn't
have had a clue that they were electric.

-S
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Dec 2002 at 8:04, Roderick Wilde wrote:

> The invention was
> a screen so fine and so sharp that it literally split water molecules into
> hydrogen and oxygen 

Something's missing here: the energy input.  

Perhaps I'm too constrained by classical physics <g>, but I don't see how 
one can break down water into hydrogen and oxygen without an input of energy 
at least equal to the energy that will be produced by recombining the H2 and 
O2.  


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
Jeremy Green wrote:
> I wasn't satisfied with the output of the heater in my crx so I
> decided to upgrade to 2 ceramic units instead of one... should I
> put the two cores in series... Or, should I have them wired
> separately so that I can switch one or the other off to have a
> high/low setting?

It is important to recognize that these ceramic elements are NOT
resistors. Ohm's law doesn't work, because their resistance is not
constant. You don't apply more voltage to get more heat; instead, you
want to push more air through it.

Before you go to the trouble of adding a second element, can you try
increasing the airflow? Remove restrictions in the air passages (there
may be sticks, leaves, mouse nests, a clogged filter, padding stuck in
the ducts to make it quieter, dirty fan blades, etc.). Change the wiring
to get more voltage to the fan motor (measure it; don't be surprised if
the stock wiring has a 2 volt drop between fan and your battery or DC/DC
voltage).

If you want to use two elements, I'd wire each of them for 240v, and put
them in parallel. Again, you can't control the heat output with voltage;
you do it with airflow.

I would not use a 120v element at 192v. Take a close look at the
elements. Notice that the actual ceramic, between the finned metal, is
only about 1/16" thick. You are expecting a 1/16" air gap to hold off
192vdc. If a bug or leaf ever bridges that gap and strikes an arc, it
will NOT extinguish itself. With the two elements in series, it would
have to simultaneously bridge it in two places.

Otmar had an excellent point about PTCs and high voltage. Above some
voltage, they cease to be self-limiting. Since almost all of these
ceramic heaters are made in China, I'd guess they have a negligible
safety margin. Do the test Otmar recommended; put 192vdc on it and block
the airflow. See what happens. Have a fire extinguisher handy!
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it would take a lot of energy to push the water thru the screen.
More then you will get back by oxidizing the hydrogen.

Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:49 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian

On 18 Dec 2002 at 8:04, Roderick Wilde wrote:

> The invention was
> a screen so fine and so sharp that it literally split water molecules into
> hydrogen and oxygen

Something's missing here: the energy input.

Perhaps I'm too constrained by classical physics <g>, but I don't see how
one can break down water into hydrogen and oxygen without an input of energy
at least equal to the energy that will be produced by recombining the H2 and
O2.


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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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The fields in series, would have all the current from all three armatures
running thru each field, so very strong fields, lot of torque.  Fields in
parallel, the current would be divided between the three fields, so weaker
fields, less torque more speed.

Would just paralleling the fields be OK?  I am thinking something would need
to be done so that the current was divided equally, like putting the fields
back in series with the individual armatures and paralleling the resulting
motors.

Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: GhiaMonster Electrical Subsystem...

A little slip there, I think that should be fields in parallel for
huge torque and in series for field weakening.

I'd vote for a fourth controller, powering all the fields separately
from the armatures. The "control algorithm" wouldn't have to be too
sophisticated:

0 to 5% of pedal brings fields to max allowed voltage
5% to 75% of pedal brings armatures to full voltage
75% to 100% of pedal weakens fields by 50% (or whatever doesn't arc)

This could be done by using three potboxes, with clever linkage and
adjustment. Downside is you'd be charting new territory -- a bigger
comfort and "safety" zone would be to do series setups like Berube,
Dube, Wilde, Otmar, Rudman, et al. I think the only sepex NEDRA racer
has been a Dodge TEV? It did win its class :) .

The pedal would have to be released carefully, because regen could be
very powerful (OK for a race car, maybe not for a street machine). It
would give you a small head start on charging the batteries for the
next run. You might have to have additional diodes that bypass the
controllers to allow the regen current to flow.

--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I'd try something different; like leaving the armatures all in
> parallel,
> but switching the fields either in series or parallel. This would
> give
> you a closer "gear ratio". Series fields gives you the tremendous
> starting torque, and parallel fields provides field weakening for
> more
> torque at high rpm.
> ...


=====


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Also, how can a screen be created that's tight enough to split atoms? What
would it be made out of? Has to be constructed of some type of materials,
which consists of atoms itself.
-Ed T

-----Original Message-----
From: Andre Blanchard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:23 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian


I think it would take a lot of energy to push the water thru the screen.
More then you will get back by oxidizing the hydrogen.

Andre' B.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton

-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of David Roden (Akron OH USA)
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:49 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT: Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian

On 18 Dec 2002 at 8:04, Roderick Wilde wrote:

> The invention was
> a screen so fine and so sharp that it literally split water molecules into
> hydrogen and oxygen

Something's missing here: the energy input.

Perhaps I'm too constrained by classical physics <g>, but I don't see how
one can break down water into hydrogen and oxygen without an input of energy
at least equal to the energy that will be produced by recombining the H2 and
O2.


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode?  See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest."  Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Well, I've already done most of the work for adding the second element. I have already made a frame to hold them that slides into my air box. I was never overly happy with my previous setup any way so I was looking for an excuse to redo it.

Stupidly, I never even thought of wiring the elements for 240 instead of 120. So, I just rewired them so that the center tab is positive and the two outside tabs are negative. Putting two pairs of the ceramic in series but this shouldn't be a problem because they are closely coupled thermally, right?

I'm going to finish the wiring in a minute and then do Otmar's smoke test to see how they work with no airflow. Of course that would be a worst case scenario but there is always the chance that the fan will burn out (when I got the car one of the fan resistors was burnt out so it didn't work on some of the speeds).

So, now, in theory there should only be 96-110 volts of potential across the layers of ceramic (assuming they stay pretty much the same temperature) which should hopefully be safe.

Thanks for all of the input!

-Jeremy


On Wednesday, December 18, 2002, at 01:53 PM, Lee Hart wrote:

Jeremy Green wrote:
I wasn't satisfied with the output of the heater in my crx so I
decided to upgrade to 2 ceramic units instead of one... should I
put the two cores in series... Or, should I have them wired
separately so that I can switch one or the other off to have a
high/low setting?
It is important to recognize that these ceramic elements are NOT
resistors. Ohm's law doesn't work, because their resistance is not
constant. You don't apply more voltage to get more heat; instead, you
want to push more air through it.

Before you go to the trouble of adding a second element, can you try
increasing the airflow? Remove restrictions in the air passages (there
may be sticks, leaves, mouse nests, a clogged filter, padding stuck in
the ducts to make it quieter, dirty fan blades, etc.). Change the wiring
to get more voltage to the fan motor (measure it; don't be surprised if
the stock wiring has a 2 volt drop between fan and your battery or DC/DC
voltage).

If you want to use two elements, I'd wire each of them for 240v, and put
them in parallel. Again, you can't control the heat output with voltage;
you do it with airflow.

I would not use a 120v element at 192v. Take a close look at the
elements. Notice that the actual ceramic, between the finned metal, is
only about 1/16" thick. You are expecting a 1/16" air gap to hold off
192vdc. If a bug or leaf ever bridges that gap and strikes an arc, it
will NOT extinguish itself. With the two elements in series, it would
have to simultaneously bridge it in two places.

Otmar had an excellent point about PTCs and high voltage. Above some
voltage, they cease to be self-limiting. Since almost all of these
ceramic heaters are made in China, I'd guess they have a negligible
safety margin. Do the test Otmar recommended; put 192vdc on it and block
the airflow. See what happens. Have a fire extinguisher handy!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Joe:

My EVcort 110v charger is switchable: 16/20/30A.
The second idea would work too.
Tom Dowling has the same situation as I do, so I'm probably going to copycat
his set-up when he sends me the details. It just staggers the start times by
an hour or so.
I'm just trying to figure out the easiest/cheapest/most expedient means by
which, if you know what I mean.
Looking into load-sensing relays as well.
Thanks a lot and Merry Christmas!
Marv


on 12/18/02 5:25 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List at
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 23:52:38 -0800
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Load-Sensing Transfer Switch for 2 Chargers
> 
> Idea 1:
> Is it possible to turn down the current on the chargers so that they will be
> under the 60 amps limit.
> 
> Idea 2:
> Can you use a 240 to 120 step down transformer to convert the 120 volt 30
> amp load into a 240 volt 15 amp load to the breaker. That way the 15 plus 40
> amp loads are under the 60 amp breaker limit.
> 
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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What kind of tires are people using? My Goodyear guy says they don't make
the Invicta anymore? Or maybe he just can't find them?
The EVcort needs 195/60R 15.
Any ideas?
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, in view of that I understand, thanks. I thought it was relative
to the battery.

--- Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The fields in series, would have all the current from all three
> armatures
> running thru each field, so very strong fields, lot of torque. 
> Fields in
> parallel, the current would be divided between the three fields, so
> weaker
> fields, less torque more speed.


=====


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Gravitational potential energy. You have to have the water tank
higher than the screen, and lift or pump the water up to the tank
when you fill it. :) Or you could reroute a waterfall.

--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2002 at 8:04, Roderick Wilde wrote:
> 
> > The invention was
> > a screen so fine and so sharp that it literally split water
> molecules into
> > hydrogen and oxygen 
> 
> Something's missing here: the energy input.  
> 
> Perhaps I'm too constrained by classical physics <g>, but I don't
> see how 
> one can break down water into hydrogen and oxygen without an input
> of energy 
> at least equal to the energy that will be produced by recombining
> the H2 and 
> O2.  


=====


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A few questions regarding the production Ford Ranger EVs...

1. Is there still an interest in them? Are they worth anything, or
have they been known for major problems recently? I've lost touch with
the Ranger scene in the last year or two.

2. Can batteries still be acquired? If so, for how much? Is it
reasonably feasible to change a pack on your own?

3. Will Ford service them at all, or do they refuse to service the
truck unless they can crush it afterwards?

I realize there is a Ranger list as well, but thought I'd post this
here since I'm already subscribed. ;)

Thanks for the info.



     -~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-

     website.           http://www.1opossum.com
     pager.voicemail.   602.422.7996.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
     email.             [EMAIL PROTECTED]
     AOL Messenger.     mtnbikeAZ
     Yahoo! Messenger.  mtnbike_az
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--- Begin Message ---
      Ford Ranger EV

      The Ford Ranger EV is available only in selected locations. There are
approximately 50 Ford EV certified dealers across the U.S. and Canada.

      a.. Special re-lease opportunity in California. California based NiMH
battery equipped vehicles coming off of lease will be refurbished and
remarketed to new lease customers for a 36-month lease term at $449 per
month. Click here for a list of available vehicles.
        b.. Lease extensions are now available for EV Ranger lessees.
        c.. Ranger EV Lease Limited warranty will cover both re-leased and
lease extension vehicles.
        d.. For more information contact Connie Huff at 1-800-344-6706 or by
email at [EMAIL PROTECTED]


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mason Convey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:23 AM
Subject: Ranger EVs Still Around?


>
> A few questions regarding the production Ford Ranger EVs...
>
> 1. Is there still an interest in them? Are they worth anything, or
> have they been known for major problems recently? I've lost touch with
> the Ranger scene in the last year or two.
>
> 2. Can batteries still be acquired? If so, for how much? Is it
> reasonably feasible to change a pack on your own?
>
> 3. Will Ford service them at all, or do they refuse to service the
> truck unless they can crush it afterwards?
>
> I realize there is a Ranger list as well, but thought I'd post this
> here since I'm already subscribed. ;)
>
> Thanks for the info.
>
>
>
>      -~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
>
>      website. http://www.1opossum.com
>      pager.voicemail. 602.422.7996.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>      email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>      AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
>      Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
>
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More info:
the USPS Truck

      Ford Motor Company is helping the mail get through -- in a way that's
cleaner and safer for the environment.

      USPS EV trucks are being tested in a number of U.S. neighborhoods. For
more information this program, please contact us toll-free at 1-877-ALT-FUEL
Based off the Ford EV Ranger Platform, the USPS electric truck is efficient,
quiet, and produces zero emissions
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chad Peddy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:30 AM
Subject: Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?


>
>       Ford Ranger EV
>
>       The Ford Ranger EV is available only in selected locations. There
are
> approximately 50 Ford EV certified dealers across the U.S. and Canada.
>
>       a.. Special re-lease opportunity in California. California based
NiMH
> battery equipped vehicles coming off of lease will be refurbished and
> remarketed to new lease customers for a 36-month lease term at $449 per
> month. Click here for a list of available vehicles.
>         b.. Lease extensions are now available for EV Ranger lessees.
>         c.. Ranger EV Lease Limited warranty will cover both re-leased and
> lease extension vehicles.
>         d.. For more information contact Connie Huff at 1-800-344-6706 or
by
> email at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mason Convey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:23 AM
> Subject: Ranger EVs Still Around?
>
>
> >
> > A few questions regarding the production Ford Ranger EVs...
> >
> > 1. Is there still an interest in them? Are they worth anything, or
> > have they been known for major problems recently? I've lost touch with
> > the Ranger scene in the last year or two.
> >
> > 2. Can batteries still be acquired? If so, for how much? Is it
> > reasonably feasible to change a pack on your own?
> >
> > 3. Will Ford service them at all, or do they refuse to service the
> > truck unless they can crush it afterwards?
> >
> > I realize there is a Ranger list as well, but thought I'd post this
> > here since I'm already subscribed. ;)
> >
> > Thanks for the info.
> >
> >
> >
> >      -~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
> >
> >      website. http://www.1opossum.com
> >      pager.voicemail. 602.422.7996.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >      email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >      AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
> >      Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
> >
>
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