EV Digest 2494

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) DC fan (OT)
        by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Oops, Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Crowbar switch?
        by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) RE: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
        by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: DC fan (OT)
        by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: DC fan (OT) answer
        by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Re: Really High Voltage Drive
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: Prius hacking.  Alec Brooks AC Propulsion
        by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: EV data acquisition systems
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 11) Re: Really High Voltage Drive an' Stuff
        by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Rudman PFC charger efficiency vs others
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: DC fan (OT)
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: Oops, Re: Update on Tilley's Delorian
        by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) OT mileage computers Re: Water drag eats ahs
        by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) Re: Crowbar switch?
        by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re: Really High Voltage Drive an' Stuff
        by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 19) Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Best EVishes to all!
        by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) Re: DC fan (OT) answer
        by "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Now if you do the math that's %95.57 efficient.

> Lee Hart, do the Vicors do this or better from the plug to the battery
> post?

No; their HAM module is spec'd at 92%. But, they run at 500 KHz to get
the size down.

> This is another clear reason for going as high a Battery voltage as
> possible.

Not really. The highest efficiency with a boost converter will occur
when the output voltage is just above the peak of the AC line. The peak
for your design may be at a higher voltage because it reduces IR losses.
-- 
Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the off topic post, but I am in a bind.  I just had a Proxima
Ultralight projector blow a fan.  I don't have a way to scan/photo the fan
right now, (i'll keep trying) but I copied all the data off the fan and it's
below.

I have searched all over the web and I have NO idea where I can get another
one of these.  I called proxima but they won't sell me a part, they want me
to ship the projector to them and allow 4/6 weeks for them to put in a 10
dollar fan and charge me $100 for working on it.

Can any of you engineer types decypher what any of this means and tell me
where I can get one of these?

Size ~ 1 7/8 "
Markings on fan:
        12v .12A 1.5w
        8K16    LR108118
        DC elfin 13 III
        EVDC12B4S-909

Three wires coming out of.

If ANYONE knows what this is and where I can get one (fast) I'd be in  your
debt

Thanks

James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562

Years of development: We finally got one to work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops, in my last post on this subject I neglected to include my standard
disclaimer:  "The statements and opinions represented in this post may or
may not be factual and definitely may or may not be exactly like and
entirely different from those of my employer" You all have a Merry
Christmas!

Roderick

Roderick Wilde,  President,  EV Parts Inc.
         Your Online EV Superstore
               www.evparts.com
        1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
Phone: 425-672-7977  Fax: 425-672-7907
        18908 Highway 99, Suite B
       Lynnwood, WA  98036-5218
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich brown (I think?) had exactly that happen to him like a year ago or
less.  It was posted about on the list.  He was using I think SW-200's in
parallel to bypass a DCP.  They welded during a drag racing run.  Luckily,
he had several paralleled heinnemann circuit breakers to use as an emergency
disconnect, and they worked well.

My apologies to Rich if this was not him.  It's been a while since that was
posted.

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Coughlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 9:20 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Crowbar switch?


I'd be curious about this as well.... seems like a good way to have a
"turbo" button. Instead of a NOS boost, you just hit this switch.

Something similar was talked about a bit last month for use with a set of
Evercell batteries (that are a bit "softer" under high load) for the normal
pack, and a set of 14AH hawkers for occassional Waylanding (the use of
electric motors to create tire smoking fun) - with more discussion on ways
to isolate one system from the other, or recharge one from the other. Don't
know if anybody actually TRIED something like this, but it seems that it
might work. I'm not quite in that realm yet (my EV restoration is a very
slow process right now) so I may have missed the rest, but it should be in
the archives from a month or more ago.

The drag racers might have more information on what could stand up to that
much juice. The first disadvantage I would think of would be the possibility
of welding your contactor closed at full throttle. Exciting, but I don't
need quite that much excitement. Next would be something that won't burn or
pit too badly.

Also, got to make sure the current doesn't come back through the controller
the other way.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Daisley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 10:35 PM
Subject: Crowbar switch?


> *Prestolite motor
> *16 x 8-volt US Flooded batteries
> * Curtis 1221 controller
>
> What might be the benefits/disadvantages of using a set of relays that
would
> bypass the controller and connect the total 128-volt pack directly to the
> motor for brief periods?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:58 PM, Rich Rudman 
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> Rich Rudman wrote:

> 450 VDC @ 23.4 AMPS  For a output wattage of 10,530
>
> From A line power of 51.9 amps of 212.3 VAC Drawn wattage of 11,018
>
> Now if you do the math that's %95.57 efficient. Power factor is at
> or over 99.9

Problem is that this is just one data point; most [all?] chargers 
will have their peak efficiency at maximum output, but the charger 
doesn't run at full output for the entire charge cycle.  Typically, 
it starts out current-limited and output power increases slowly 
throughout bulk until peaking at max output briefly just as it 
switches to constant voltage, after which the output power decreases 
to a low level.  Then, this low output current is held for some 
amount of time.

You might be surprised by the comparison of overall charge efficiency 
of a Zivan running a constant power bulk algorithm vs a 'dumb' PFCxx 
IE[I] curve...

If you want to compare charger efficiency meaningfully, you must do 
so on the basis of kWh in vs kWh out over an entire charge cycle, and 
this overall charge efficiency will depend on the charge algorithm 
implemented and the batteries being charged.  I've measured chargers 
with peak efficiencies in the 90's that only delivered ~60% 
efficiency over the entire charge cycle, despite essentially unity 
power factor.

> This is another clear reason for going as high a Battery voltage as
> possible.

... only if one plans to use a PFCxx charger, and only then because 
you have designed the charger to handle a humungously wide output 
voltage range, with the result that maximum efficiency happens to 
coincide with [near] maximum output voltage.

Cheers,

Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- It is often nice to include you direct email address in OT messages.

But you might try looking at http://www.digikey.com and look for a Fan 12VDC 25mm. There are several that may work. Part# 259-1014-ND seems a good choice, ball bearing and $14, in-stock.

At 10:29 AM 12/20/2002, you wrote:
Sorry for the off topic post, but I am in a bind.  I just had a Proxima
Ultralight projector blow a fan.  I don't have a way to scan/photo the fan
right now, (i'll keep trying) but I copied all the data off the fan and it's
below.

I have searched all over the web and I have NO idea where I can get another
one of these.  I called proxima but they won't sell me a part, they want me
to ship the projector to them and allow 4/6 weeks for them to put in a 10
dollar fan and charge me $100 for working on it.

Can any of you engineer types decypher what any of this means and tell me
where I can get one of these?

Size ~ 1 7/8 "
Markings on fan:
        12v .12A 1.5w
        8K16    LR108118
        DC elfin 13 III
        EVDC12B4S-909

Three wires coming out of.

If ANYONE knows what this is and where I can get one (fast) I'd be in  your
debt

Thanks

James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562

Years of development: We finally got one to work.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message  *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MUNI in San Francisco uses 600vdc.  Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:30 PM
Subject: Really High Voltage Drive


> This might be a stupid question, but I have to ask. 
> What if an EV could utilize a scaled down version of
> the drive system of mass transit (like subway or
> street carts)?
> 
> I don't know what the voltage is, but I assume it is
> pretty high.  And, if the voltage is high enough, a
> few packs of Prius batteries in *series* will do the
> job of providing adequate range.  Or, a long series of
> small Li-Ion is all we need.  We will not need
> special, large battery for EVs and the drive
> technology is already proven.
> 
> What did I miss?
> 
> Ed Ang
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So with the ice out whats the problem?  Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: Prius hacking. Alec Brooks AC Propulsion


> >Using the existing Prius drive motor, it would be a low power EV suited
for
> >urban travel, but would be freeway capable. (A minor modification to the
> >Prius transmission would eliminate the 41mph limit on electric power
alone.)
> >The battery should last at least 10 years and 100,000 miles.
>
> I don't recommend that, at least not by much! The Prius transaxle is
> limited to 42mph because at that point the motor/generator that is
> not turning (can't without turning the engine over) hits 6500rpm.
> This is the factory limit for the PM rotor. In some cases the Prius
> control system does choose to spin that M/G to go faster, but that
> means the ICE is turning over without fuel. Not a real good choice
> for range or energy efficiency.
>
> Neon
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it looks like monitoring current from either a shunt or transducer will 
work.  I like Victor's circuit with the shunt monitor IC, since I've already 
got shunts, although the weight is a bit higher.  If I can get a clean 0-5v 
signal, the rest is already in place.  My Microprocessor board is definately 
more costly than a PC based system (assuming you already have a PC), but 
strapping a laptop to my back wouldn't work all that well either.

But I have used the fluke scopemeter strapped to the tank area.  Worked fine as 
long as I didn't lean on any buttons, but not very classy.

Thanks for all the input on this topic.


Darin Gilbert
Bad Fish Racing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Really High Voltage Drive


> MUNI in San Francisco uses 600vdc.  Lawrence Rhodes......As duz MBTA, MAX
PDX, Trax, SLC,Wrong Island RR,one of the first NYCTA< SEPTA, Metro, DC all
those guyz! Nice voltage, been around since the dawn of electric rail
traction, 110 yearz ago.Nice to see a trolley, antique, go along @ 30-40
amps.Only trouble would be handling say, 300 cells of battery to get this
amount of juice!But yu would have Ohms law in your favor!

    Amtrak chose a seemingly outragious 25 k for the new electrification, AC
of course, yu can imagine the arc possabilities of DC at that pressure!Not
to mention that AC is a catalogue current, easy to buy, most anywhere, at
any voltage ya like, hoew deeop are yur pockets? The substations can be
about 25 miles apart, asd transmission losses are lower at louder voltages.
The DC systems used for RR stuff, the cable feeders are massive, and the
substations are about a mile apart. This is easy to do today, through solid
state rectifyers and stuff. But it dous symplify the electronics on the car,
itself. yu don't care how heavy yur substation stuff is as it stays home, on
the ground as yu play with the actual train or trolley. Of course , new
developments in AC stuff could change things, but RR's are tradition bound.
Amtrak STILL uses 25 hc, 11k between NYC and DC the origional stuff that
they opened with 90 years ago! Of course the new stuff to Boston is 60hx so
the trains hafta be happy feeding on two voltages and frequencies! Actually
three as Metro North went to 13500k on their former 11k25hz lines, going any
higher woulda ment new insulaters, the 1907 or so catenery insulaters didn't
care on switcheroo day.

    Botton line here, sure would be nice to glide along on say 5-10 amps @
600 voltsIn yur EV, but the battery thing would be sorta silly, 600
connections to keep after. I remember when I first got into EV's 35 yearz
ago that a 120 volt car was considered daring! We DID a 144 volt AMC
conversion at Electric Fuel Propulsion, got great performance, but it was at
the limits of the solid state stuiff then. Car would Mis communtate and away
yu went! In embarissing amounts of tire smoke if yur line switch welded
shut. Nobody was used to working with Hi voltage DC and how nicely it could
weld contactors together!Ya stood on the brakes eased it into something that
wouldn't push away, light pole, concrete abutment, hopped out and pried open
a fuze if it didn't open on its own, to stop the festivities!Oh those were
the daze, before the great Rapter stuff we take for granted today. Even the
Curtises, or Cursets, are a big improvment over the #$%^ stuff we had 35
years ago. when a contactor series parallel setup was safer than the squalid
state as I called it then. Thats why I call my Raptur a " Rapture"
controller, it is my usual twist of words. I knew what went before<g>! I can
go out to my Rabbit and drive away, silky smooth.

    Got off topic again, sorry, let it go at that!

     Seeya

     Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 1:30 PM
> Subject: Really High Voltage Drive
>
>
> > This might be a stupid question, but I have to ask.
> > What if an EV could utilize a scaled down version of
> > the drive system of mass transit (like subway or
> > street carts)?
> >
> > I don't know what the voltage is, but I assume it is
> > pretty high.  And, if the voltage is high enough, a
> > few packs of Prius batteries in *series* will do the
> > job of providing adequate range.  Or, a long series of
> > small Li-Ion is all we need.  We will not need
> > special, large battery for EVs and the drive
> > technology is already proven.
> >
> > What did I miss?
> >
> > Ed Ang
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, December 19, 2002 8:58 PM, Rich Rudman
> [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> 
> > 450 VDC @ 23.4 AMPS  For a output wattage of 10,530
> >
> > From A line power of 51.9 amps of 212.3 VAC Drawn wattage of 11,018
> >
> > Now if you do the math that's %95.57 efficient. Power factor is at
> > or over 99.9
> 
> Problem is that this is just one data point; most [all?] chargers
> will have their peak efficiency at maximum output, but the charger
> doesn't run at full output for the entire charge cycle.  Typically,
> it starts out current-limited and output power increases slowly
> throughout bulk until peaking at max output briefly just as it
> switches to constant voltage, after which the output power decreases
> to a low level.  Then, this low output current is held for some
> amount of time.
> 
> You might be surprised by the comparison of overall charge efficiency
> of a Zivan running a constant power bulk algorithm vs a 'dumb' PFCxx
> IE[I] curve...
> 
> If you want to compare charger efficiency meaningfully, you must do
> so on the basis of kWh in vs kWh out over an entire charge cycle, and
> this overall charge efficiency will depend on the charge algorithm
> implemented and the batteries being charged.  I've measured chargers
> with peak efficiencies in the 90's that only delivered ~60%
> efficiency over the entire charge cycle, despite essentially unity
> power factor.
> 
> > This is another clear reason for going as high a Battery voltage as
> > possible.
> 
> ... only if one plans to use a PFCxx charger, and only then because
> you have designed the charger to handle a humungously wide output
> voltage range, with the result that maximum efficiency happens to
> coincide with [near] maximum output voltage.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Roger.

Very good points.
        Still anybody wanna  go watt for watt with me???? I bet I beat some
pretty spendy gear with PFC, HF magnetics and a simple timer.
        Simply put the difference in battery cycle eff is very hard to predict.
It's my goal to use as much of the line power as possible and waste as
little as I can. That would also involve rapid charge termination, and
reaching end of charger without spending undue amounts of power doing
useless equalization cycles. Just enough and no more. This can be a
religion unto itself. 

        Very lightly loaded is not a really good data point for high power
switchers. And yes a good chunk of the charge cycle may be spent
delivering 1 to 5 % of the total power. But... you have to get there
from here.
        loosing %30 of your delivered power when you are only delivering %5 of
your max is a lot better than loosing %40 of your power while drawing
your full limit. 40 watt of losses is a lot better than 2Kw.

Also a good portion of the losses are ouput diode conduction losses.
Boosting 12Kw at 450vdc is about 23 amps Bucking 9Kw at 96 volts is 78
amps more or less continuous acros a 2.6 volt diode. I do wish Powerex
would get some better diodes in thier F series modules. Yea I know the
FN series is on it's way. I am in line for samples. They promise better
diodes. 
        We could save alot of waste when doing Deep, high power bucking.... if
we wanted to loose the high voltage boost segment of the market. Since I
see my main market as the 144 volts and above...Just being able to do
Buck(less than AC line) is a courtsey. 
        If you want to win the Efficientcy Game. Run  my PFC chargers from 240
VAC to 48 VDC output. They make nice space heaters... and they also get
the battery charged.
        If you pick specific points in my operational envelope, You sure can
find a less wastefull charger, but over 240 volts and at over 10Kw
ouput.... you won't find much of a weakness.
        I will be doing some PFC20s over the Christmas week, and they DO have
the killer diodes. Lets see how they match up to the PFC50s, and big
dumb modules. The last data points were over %94 at 420 VDC and full
power.
-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gordon Niessen wrote:
> 
> It is often nice to include you direct email address in OT messages.
> 
> But you might try looking at http://www.digikey.com and look for a Fan
> 12VDC 25mm.  There are several that may work.  Part# 259-1014-ND seems a
> good choice, ball bearing and $14, in-stock.
> 
> At 10:29 AM 12/20/2002, you wrote:
> >Sorry for the off topic post, but I am in a bind.  I just had a Proxima
> >Ultralight projector blow a fan.  I don't have a way to scan/photo the fan
> >right now, (i'll keep trying) but I copied all the data off the fan and it's
> >below.
> >
> >I have searched all over the web and I have NO idea where I can get another
> >one of these.  I called proxima but they won't sell me a part, they want me
> >to ship the projector to them and allow 4/6 weeks for them to put in a 10
> >dollar fan and charge me $100 for working on it.
> >
> >Can any of you engineer types decypher what any of this means and tell me
> >where I can get one of these?
> >
> >Size ~ 1 7/8 "
> >Markings on fan:
> >         12v .12A 1.5w
> >         8K16    LR108118
> >         DC elfin 13 III
> >         EVDC12B4S-909
> >
> >Three wires coming out of.
> >
> >If ANYONE knows what this is and where I can get one (fast) I'd be in  your
> >debt
> >
> >Thanks
> >
> >James F. Jarrett
> >Information Systems Associate
> >Charlotte Country Day School
> >(704)943-4562
> >
> >Years of development: We finally got one to work.

I would get the 40 MM fan since it is 1.6 inches. I expect that the
outside edge is very close to 1.875, like you need.
        3 wires
        black neg
        Red Pos
        White most likley tach output. You gear needs this to know if the fan
is actually running.
        
pick a 12 volter that has the most amps and CFM. 
        
Digikey.com
Mouser.com
Alliedelec.com has by FAR the best fan selection.
        Manzanita Micro PFC chargers use Mechatronics fans.... from the factory
sorry I only have 60mm and 80 mm in stock.

I like EGG Rotron  Roger???
        Orion has some good stuff.
        find one that fits, and get it. There are about a dozzen makes that
could be used. 
-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> 
> Oops, in my last post on this subject I neglected to include my standard
> disclaimer:  "The statements and opinions represented in this post may or
> may not be factual and definitely may or may not be exactly like and
> entirely different from those of my employer" You all have a Merry
> Christmas!
> 
> Roderick
> 
> Roderick Wilde,  President,  EV Parts Inc.
>          Your Online EV Superstore
>                www.evparts.com
>         1-888-EV Parts (387-2787)
> Phone: 425-672-7977  Fax: 425-672-7907
>         18908 Highway 99, Suite B
>        Lynnwood, WA  98036-5218

Manzanita Micro would like to welcome Rod and Joanne of Evparts Back to
the Good side of Puget Sound.

Now instead of handing off chargers to Rod on his way to the ferry, I
get to drive them up to Pt Townsend.

Funny how the opinions of our employers are infact are own!!

-- 
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
JB, it's good to have you back on the list, seems like old times again. If
only I could motor to Boulder for a spaghetti dinner with you! I was just
thinking about the time you wanted to sell your prized EV and move into a
cave, or some such thing. Lately, I too have thought about dumping the EV
thing, but as I said in an off-list e-mail to Chuck Hendrick, working on my
wife's gas S10 lately just makes my EV troubles easier to take. Anyway,
this post caused a synaptic pathway to fire, and I remember wanting one of
those computers for my Dodge. It seems funny now that I think about it, as
the beast had a 440 and used 'a lot' of fuel. Maybe the path to EV's
started around than! Early on I did have a very nice SW vacuum gauge like
Lee mentioned, along side a SW fuel pressure gauge 'inside' the car, which
I had to disconnect when I started racing it a Bandimere's.

Sucking amps instead of gas these days,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Lyons, CO
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 16 year-old son!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)

>Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 12:56:55 -0800
>From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>John Bryan wrote:
>> I think it's been proven that such a thing would decrease fuel
>> consumption.
>
>That's for sure! Any car with an mpg computer has always gotten better
>gas mileage. It encourages drivers to drive more economically.
>
>> There used to be several
>> companies that made aftermarket mileage computers, you could get them
>> at any general auto parts store, and JCWhitney had a variety of models
>> to choose from. There was a point (I think early 90's), where they
>> vanished from all of these sources at exactly the same time, and
>> haven't been available (that I know of) from anyplace since...
>>
>> Perhaps the aftermarket computers were infringing on patents
>> that the automakers decided to enforce, since the time of their
>> disappearance roughly coincides with the time that they came into
>> use on some luxury cars. Or, more likely, the market for them dried
>> up as people ditched their economy cars and purchased SUVs.
>
>Certainly there were no patents to stop them. MPG computers have been
>being used in cars for many, many years, and the basic patents have all
>expired and are in the public domain.
>
>The oldest method is the vacuum gauge. Intake pressure (vacuum) is a
>relative indicator of airflow, and if you assume a constant fuel-air
>ratio (a weak assumption with a mechanical carburetor), then you can
>calibrate it in mpg. It really only gives you a relative indication of
>mpg.
>
>Later, mpg computers inserted a fuel flowmeter in the gas line, and
>picked up the distance travelled via the odometer cable. The earliest
>mpg "computers" were mechanical, like old speedometers. Electrical
>analog computers soon replaced them, as they were cheaper and worked
>better. When digital electronics, and then microcomputers became
>available, mpg computers used them, for still better accuracy.
>
>I suspect that aftermarket mpg computers disappeared as cars became much
>more difficult to work on. You couldn't get at the fuel line, it used
>special fittings you couldn't get, high pressures with the pump in the
>gas tank made leaks more serious, or there were pressure return lines
>from the injectors to the tank that made simple fuel flow measurements
>impossible. Likewise, the speedometer cables became inaccessible, or
>needed special fittings to tap into them, or the car had an electronic
>speedometer so there was no mechanical cable. Old cars could put magnets
>on the drive shaft, but that option was lost with front wheel drive
>setups.
>
>At the same time, it became *easier* for the car companies to add mpg
>computers if they so desired. Once you have a fuel injected engine and
>electronic speedometer, the emission control computer can easily
>calculate mpg. But just because it only cost the auto company $5 to add
>it doesn't mean they won't charge $500 for the option. :-)
>--
>Lee A. Hart                Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave. N.            Forget your perfect offering
>Sartell, MN 56377 USA      There is a crack in everything
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net  That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting. Do you think there is a chance to have access to that
stripped off van? The battery management system may still be in it.

Reason I wanted to talk to TDM engineers may be they have some docs
or guidance how to set up parameters in the software. Since they
changed some (I read it from Matt's inverter) they must of have
some documentation what each parameter is and does.

I want this documentation. This is almost hopeless wish, but since
software said "TDM" on the screen instead if what Siemens normally
loads, I know they did it, so some sort of docs about it must
exist.

Victor

BORTEL wrote:
> 
> Victor,
> That particular 6SV that Matt has that you are talking about was in the load
> of parts I picked up at TDM. As you noted , it was not from a Ranger, it was
> from a large box type van that is still setting behind their building. They
> have done a number of different EV projects, although that is not the bulk
> of their business. They did a concept car for CARB, the prototype GEM NEV
> and a few others. They have also done a number of CNG units. They just
> finished remanufacturing Glacier Park's 1936 White tour buses, a project
> sponsored by Ford, and they really look nice. They have even converted 1 of
> the EV Rangers they built to an ICE. But they have never put a Siemens setup
> in a Ranger.
> 
> Dan
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Ranger EVs Still Around?
> 
> > Apparently, TDM made more units than you know about. I recently helped
> > a man who brought the Siemens 6SV long inverter, pulled from a van,
> > which had TDM software loaded in it. AT ONE TIME TDM installed and
> > programmed these units not only for Ford.
> >
> > Victor
> >
> > BORTEL wrote:
> > >
> > > Jeremy,
> > > The motor/controller/charger in the TDM version of the Ford Ranger EV
> were
> > > made by Northrop-Grumman (Westinghouse), not by Siemens. I was just at
> TDM
> > > Thanksgiving week picking up the remaining Ranger EV parts from their
> > > inventory. There are 7 of us across the US that own most of the units
> > > produced by TDM for Ford.
> > > Dan Bortel
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Jeremy Maus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2002 2:34 AM
> > > Subject: RE: Ranger EVs Still Around?
> > >
> > > > Hi List.
> > > >
> > > > I better speak up here.  I am working for Visteon - the spinoff from
> ford
> > > that
> > > > supplied the EV parts to Ford.  Th!nk then took over EV Ranger
> support.
> > > Now ?
> > > >
> > > > 1.  The motor is, in my opinion, very well integrated into the
> driveaxle.
> > > I
> > > > don't know why you would want to upgrade it.  The controls were
> designed
> > > to
> > > > limit torque from the motor to avoid wheel spin.  Top speed should be
> like
> > > 90mph
> > > > and power into it can be more than the inverter gives it now. - just
> what
> > > I have
> > > > heard don't know for sure.
> > > >
> > > > Victor, the prototype TDM build rangers used siemens systems.  But the
> > > > production version built at MSX has the, in my opinion, well
> engineered
> > > motor
> > > > axle assembly.  Th e motor and gears are submerged in oil.
> > > >
> > > > 2.  The inverter is not that powerfull, but I would say designed well.
> > > The
> > > > logic and gate drive circuits are on different sides of the board.
> This
> > > > inverter passed strict EMC/EMI requirements, not possible if the hi
> > > voltage and
> > > > logic are together.
> > > >
> > > > It should be easy to put a more powerfull inverte in place of the the
> TIM.
> > > You
> > > > will lose the rev limiting and low battery modes.
> > > >
> > > > 3.  The EV Rangers must have been sold.  They ordered enough parts for
> 10
> > > years
> > > > of repair.  They are required to do this if they sell a vehicle.
> > > >
> > > > 4.  The batteries are made at the East Penn.  - 8V AGM type.  Same
> case as
> > > the
> > > > EV1 12V modules but double the plates.  The biggest improvement would
> be
> > > > regulators on the batteries.  With regs battery life would double to
> > > quadruple.
> > > >
> > > > Gary Graunke, if you would like to discuss design flaws with the Ford
> > > Inverters,
> > > > please talk to me directly.  I would like any input to improve other
> > > inverters
> > > > we are designing.
> > > >
> > > > Happy Holidays,
> > > >
> > > > Jeremy Maus
> > > > Belleville, MI
> > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > http://www.emidget.info
> > > >              _____
> > > >           __/__|__\__
> > > > =D-------/  -     -  \
> > > >          `-'O'---'O'-'
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Victor Tikhonov
> > > >
> > > > Jim Coate wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Mason Convey wrote:
> > > > > > A few questions regarding the production Ford Ranger EVs...
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, what he said... good questions. I'll add one more:
> > > > >
> > > > > 4. How "hackable" are they? As in if change battery pack capacity,
> > > > > voltage, etc. can a mere mortal alter the charger to match? Ditto
> for
> > > > > the controller, "fuel" gage, etc. Or if add a different charger does
> the
> > > > > controller then get confused?
> > > > >
> > > > > Or would one of Victor's AC drives bolt right in? :-)
> > > >
> > > > All indications suggest that it will: AC motors for Ford Rangers
> > > > made by Ballard (type A312V67 MG) are just Siemens 1PV51xx series
> > > > motors, from which front flanges are removed and gear box bolted in.
> > > >
> > > > The motors look identical up to and including cables locations
> > > > and fittings (and even casted loops for lifting are the same).
> > > > wonder how Ballard got away with copyright issues...
> > > >
> > > > If I were a truck fan and had dead Ranger, I'd remove the
> > > > motor and install complete Siemens system. I believe, Gary
> > > > Graunke mentioned that there are inexcusable design flaws
> > > > in the Inverter - hi voltage components and PCB traces
> > > > are in close proximity with low voltage logic circuit.
> > > >
> > > > Victor
> > > >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Peter,
The EVT15 does wait until PWM duty cycle is at least 90%.
The accelerator input voltage must also be below 1V (this is a 5k to 0ohm
configuration where 0 ohms is max acceleration).
I wrote a custom version for Northern Arizona Universities Formula Lighting
that would pull in at 60% on time. I still have a custom MCU that will do this, but
I don't have a vehicle with the EVT15 installed presently.
I tried this same control on a Taylor Dunn flat bed utility truck (that had 1,000lb payload
capacity) The normal current limit for the EVT15 is 500 motor amps, 350 Battery amps.
When the contactor closed at 60% duty cycle the truck took off quickly and battery current
jumped to 700-800 amps (measured with a chart recorder).
Pretty cool Nitrus for an EV!
Rod


Peter A VanDerWal wrote:

My GE controller actually has this feature built in. Engaging the
bypass contactor gains you a little bit more efficiency and a couple
extra volts to the motor (higher speeds).
However, the GE controller measures motor current and voltage and
compares them to pack voltage and throttle position and will only engage
the contactor when conditions are such that it wouldn't be too much
current for the contactor to handle. I think motor voltage has to be
90% of pack voltage, throttle has to be at 75% or more, etc.

On Thu, 2002-12-19 at 23:35, Roger Daisley wrote:

*Prestolite motor
*16 x 8-volt US Flooded batteries
* Curtis 1221 controller

What might be the benefits/disadvantages of using a set of relays that would
bypass the controller and connect the total 128-volt pack directly to the
motor for brief periods?












--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>     Botton line here, sure would be nice to glide
> along on say 5-10 amps @
> 600 voltsIn yur EV, but the battery thing would be
> sorta silly, 600
> connections to keep after. 

So, assuming we could insulate the 600V HV system (I
don't see how we couldn't, didn't they just hang the
MUNI cables in the air? ;)) and assuming we could hard
solder the cells much like they do for notebook
batteries or Prius batteries, and assuming we have a
charger to charge this pack, could this be feasible in
an EV?

Say a typical EV needs 10kW at 60mph, that means
10kW/600V = 16.7A.  So, a 34Ah pack gives 120 miles,
17Ah 60 miles, and a 8.5Ah 30 miles.  Humm...
interesting...

If we use 13Ah Nimh cells like this
(http://www.rabbittool.com/pages/20,21bat.html) for
$11 each, $11x500 = $5,500 (less for high volume), it
would give a 47-mile range.  We might even put them in
transformer cooling oil to regulate temperature ...

Just some thoughts.

Ed Ang

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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, it was suppose to go off list....

Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 
> Interesting. Do you think there is a chance to have access to that
> stripped off van? The battery management system may still be in it.
> 
...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Happy holidays dear fellows;

I'll be on the [forced] vacation next 2 weeks and won't have access to
the list. Happy EVing, best wishes, stay charged and have fun!

Victor.


Little poem for all which may actually be useful. Sorry if it was 
posted before and I missed it:


   Twinkle, Twinkle little star, P equates to I squared R.
   Twinkle, Twinkle in the sky, P is also E times I.

   Twinkle, Twinkle can you see, P equals R neath the square of E.
   E is the same as I times R, but E over I is also R.

   E over R comes up with I, This law is ohms', I wonder why?
   R is in ohms, E is in volts, I is in amperes like lightning bolts.

   So starkle, Starkle, little twink, My minds too muddled now
                                                        to think.
   All these equations may be true, But it's pie in the sky,
                                          Lest you know what to do.

                                                       
                                                   - Walter Bartelt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just from working in the electronics cooling biz, I'd say that the product
offerings in the DC cooling fan world are pretty much all the same. If you
wanted to upgrade, go for a Sanyo Denki model of the appropriate size. From
the part number, An "educated guess" would be that this is a Ball-Bearing
("B") - anyway...replace it with a Ball-bearing model - they last twice as
long.  It would probably be of the 40mm size category (these things are
pretty standardized!). The width is likely either 20mm or 10mm (my guess
would be 20, but I can't tell from the part number - just measure it!).
There are typically three speed ratings - I'd advise using the "high speed"
model (if it needs cooling, cool it!). The three wire leads issue can be
handled easily... there are two types of fan monitoring generally
available...one detects whether the fan is spinning, and the other detects
the actual RPM. Get the RPM detection model and you're taken care of ... it
will also work with the monitoring hardware/software to act as a
stoppage-detect output the same way the other version would. I think that
about takes care of it... there are too many brands to list, but Sanyo Denki
is the best. Sunon is generally pretty decent. You should be able to find a
suitable replacement at any electronics / computer store and pick it up for
under $20. Best to bring your old fan in to match physical dimensions
though. No rocket science here.

-Doug Martin

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:57 AM
Subject: Re: DC fan (OT) answer


Okay, I'll rise to the challenge with a bit of web searching.....

Well, it appears that LR108118 is the registration number for a company
called Japan Servo for products manufactured in Indonesia.

Some of the products they make are listed... you are looking at "Silent fans
with round venturis and silent blowers with multi-blades. There is a series
of AC/DC heat flow fans and centrifugal blowers. These have passed
certification tests including UL, CSA, TUV and VDE. We can also manufacture
products with sensors of a lockup detection type, pulse output and a
rotational speed detection type.Fan sizes: 40 to 200 mm, blower sizes: 76 x
25 mm to 127 x 39 mm

The webpage for the company is http://www.japanservo.com

Following up, it appears that the device is NOT an "eUdc12b4s-909"... It is
eVdc.... etc. So that might have bollixed up your search.

You might be looking at a version of this fan...
http://www.japanservo.com/digital/general/pdf/g_fab_005.pdf . This is the
EVDC12B4 - the only reference to the "S" model I found on the japanese
language site (s for "shin" perhaps?).

US offices are at:
Japan Servo USA Inc.
725 River Road
Suite 111
Edgewater, New Jersey 07020
Tel.1-201-313-3800
Fax.1-201-313-3804

That's as far as I got with web searching for a quick search. You will
probably have to call for a local place to purchase (there was not a
purchase option I could find for that part on the web).

This should help.... now (mandatory EV content) time to go put the charger
on the next battery on my truck.... 12 volts at a time until I finish
building the new charger.....

Kevin Coughlin
Snohomish, WA
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:29 AM
Subject: DC fan (OT)


> Sorry for the off topic post, but I am in a bind.  I just had a Proxima
> Ultralight projector blow a fan.  I don't have a way to scan/photo the fan
> right now, (i'll keep trying) but I copied all the data off the fan and
it's
> below.
>
> I have searched all over the web and I have NO idea where I can get
another
> one of these.  I called proxima but they won't sell me a part, they want
me
> to ship the projector to them and allow 4/6 weeks for them to put in a 10
> dollar fan and charge me $100 for working on it.
>
> Can any of you engineer types decypher what any of this means and tell me
> where I can get one of these?
>
> Size ~ 1 7/8 "
> Markings on fan:
> 12v .12A 1.5w
> 8K16 LR108118
> DC elfin 13 III
> EVDC12B4S-909
>
> Three wires coming out of.
>
> If ANYONE knows what this is and where I can get one (fast) I'd be in
your
> debt
>
> Thanks
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
> Years of development: We finally got one to work.
>
--- End Message ---

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