EV Digest 2502
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Cheap conversion, how about 15 miles range in winter?
by Andrew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: EV charging signs seen on S CA highways
by "Shelton, John D. AW2" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: VW Fire Damage Pictures
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Festiva convertion
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV Fuse
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: VW Fire Damage Pictures
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) EVRegistration
by "Johanna and Stan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
by "James Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Tropica #16 has it's plates - LONG
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>Subject: Re:cheapest conversion
> Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:35:05 -0800 (PST)
> From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>30 miles in winter assuming 35 mph top speed sounds
>like one would buy a used 96V EV conversion, put
>plate battery warmers in.
>A good used EV is a the best bargain, but you will need
>to have warm batts to get the range.
Bruce
How hard would it be to get 15 miles range with a 45 mph top speed?
Specifically I'm thinking of a VW bus to run around Ann Arbor Michigan.
A VW bus should be simple to convert (plenty of room for batteries, VW
adapters available), will carry 4 people or a sheet of plywood and has a
favourable performance image. So if it's cold and I'm down to 30 mph at
the top of the grade on Washtenaw avenue no one will be surprised to see
a VW bus chugging along in the slow lane....
I frequently go less than 15 miles in a day but need to be able to go 45
mph on the level.
I was thinking of flooded Ni-Cad batteries for the cold but for a short
trips heated lead might be a more practical option.
I've heard rumours of special rates for EV charging but haven't verified
them yet.
--
Andrew King
Ann Arbor Michigan
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since us EV'ers are reporting sighting I guess I should have
mentioned this a good while back. I was lucky enough to spend a few days in
Paris this year and when I visited the Louvre I spotted two charging
stations right across the street from it. I also bought a Th!nk while I was
in France. It's only about 6 inches long but it's as close as I'll ever get
to owning one ;-)
John David
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 1:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EV charging signs seen on S CA highways
After jumping through hoops to prove to non-English
speaking faculty I could speak English, so I could
register for a required English course (what a
school system 'pain'), I decided to use the few days
I had to vent some frustration.
I took off heading down south to verify housing costs
and the job market in those locations.
I voyaged out into the great EV void:
S. Central Valley, Bakersfield, Mojave, etc.
I knew I had re-entered civilization when as I was
cruising the San Bernardino highways, and I saw a
'Electric Vehicle Charging' sign. These are like the
fuel and lodging highway signs for the next exit.
Seeing that EV charging sign on the highway brought
a smile to my face (that felt sooo-gooood).
All along my trip South and back, through Riverside, to
San Diego, and back North through Los Angeles, I saw
those signs. While I did not have time to check each one
out, you know I wanted to know if those EV charging spots
had the universal conductive AVCON charging head that any
EV could use, or an inductive.
Well, I'm back now. My Blazer EV did not get to have
Clare Bell's magic touch (we did not connect to get some
work done), I have a ton-o-email to respond to and
discussion group subscriptions that are pending.
ttfn
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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----- Original Message -----
From: Grannes, Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, December 29, 2002 3:41 PM
Subject: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
> Folks,
>
> My Fair Radio charger's ammeter is dead. I couldn't figure out why I
> wasn't getting any voltage readings on the output, even though the power
> light was on, the transformer was humming, and the bridge diodes seemed
> to be doing their thing. It turns out that the output of the bridge
> goes through the ammeter (internal shunt), and the output of the ammeter
> is where the voltmeter is connected. When I bypassed the ammeter,
> everything works fine. Therefore, I think the shunt in the ammeter
> failed open.
>
Hi Deano;
Yeah know the feeling, If yu can't fix it, I think I have a meter from
my collection of broken and dead Fair Radio's MY big problem with these is
disindigrating rotery switches, the heart of the thing. Zillion connections
and it's nice brittle ceramic. Have epoxied them together. To tell ya what a
nice outfit Fair Radio is, when I ordered two units, they cane with broken
stuff, and wouldn't work. I called them and they sent me two MORE, out of
the blue. Didn't hafta return the dead ones. I fixed the busted switch, and
have 3 units sitting around, in various states of repair. Not using them as
I have a General Radio variac and rectifyer that I use now. Am planning on
using a 120 volt Lester matic, as a stay-at-home setup. When I get a chance,
to build my drive on charging deck, making EV charging a matter of parking
in one spot. No more plugging in in the rain! I can document that with my
new digital camera I got for Christmas. So many projects, so little time.
When the snow melts an goes AWAY!
Anyhow, ampmeter I got, I think, let me know.
Seeya
Bob
> The ammeter is round, between 2" and 2.5", says "Phastron" #621-17767,
> 50mV full scale and reads from 0-20ADC. From the back, it says
> something like "Sealed--do not open".
>
> Anyone know where I might be able to find a replacement for this? I
> think it's mil-spec, and I'd like to get a direct replacement, if I can
> find one. I tried searching Google and a few of the electrical surplus
> places both locally and online, and couldn't find such a beast. I did
> find one such ammeter without the internal shunt, but I'd rather not
> have to worry about getting a separate shunt and then fitting it in
> there. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
> Dean
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grannes, Dean wrote:
> My Fair Radio charger's ammeter is dead...
> Anyone know where I might be able to find a replacement for this?
Try Fair Radio (where the charger came from). They used to have several
that were missing pieces, and so could sell you a meter from one.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Wow! Could you tell what caused the fire? I re-read Bob's post but it sounds like the
original owner didn't know.
good luck,
Steve
In a message dated 12/29/2002 8:22:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
>
>
> Well I finally got around to posting some pictures I took of the 80' VW
> Rabbit that Bob Rice helped me pickup in Delaware a few week ago. Nice
> closeup of melted batteries and bare 2/0 wires :-( And they
> were brand new
> batteries before they melted...
>
> http://www.geocities.com/evblazer/VWFireGallery.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
> I've heard a lot of people say they bought an SUV because they're afraid
of
> SUV's. The safety record of even a Volvo isn't much consolation after
seeing
> an SUV drive straight through the windows of one.
> Personally, I have a consience, so I drive a Festiva. Also why I'm
planning
> to convert one to electric.
> John
>
I for one enjoy hearing about other peoples projects . Somtimes we don't
hear anything till there is some problem which might have been avoided .
What are your plans for the Festiva ( every time I see one I think "that
would make a nice EV" ) motor? number and type of bats? controller? what
distance ,speed do you want?
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I would add that the power companies have excess power at night (as they
can't turn down there generators on the off hours)and if the EV is charged
at night then you are helping by using power that can't be sold or saved.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Hartmann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 10:42 AM
Subject: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
>
> I have a friend who insists that EV's pollute more than ICE. His
> argument is that due to transmission line losses and transformer
> losses in grid distribution, it takes 2000 watts to get 1000 watts to
> the EV. Since they have to generate twice the power, it causes twice
> the pollution/carbon dioxide, etc.
>
> Has anyone done the math on this? My argument is that the pollution
> generated to get a unit of power (gallon of gas) to an ICE must be
> huge when one considers the energy and pollution to get the oil from
> the well, refined and to the gas pump.
>
> Can anyone provide hard data so I can put this guy in his place?
> Where can I find detailed hard data on the energy cost of getting
> gasoline to the pump and how much pollution that creates? Is there
> any detailed hard data on transmission line losses and how much is
> really lost versus what ends up charging the EV? I'm especially
> interested in how much power it takes to refine gasoline and how
> efficient refineries are in general (and how much they pollute).
>
> Thanks,
> Rick
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Gary and Lee I'm going to use the KLKD fuse.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: EV Fuse
> > Has anybody found a good combination of fuse and holder for 500
> > volt and 15 amps
>
> Rich,
>
> The KLKD fuses from littlefuse are good to 600VDC and I'm sure they have a
> 15A fuse. (Yes, that's DC, not just AC).
>
> I use KLKD 5A fuses for the wires going to each battery in my truck. They
> are reasonably small, and so is the fuseholder. However, incredible as it
> may seem, the fuse holders were still too large for my US Electricar
battery
> boxes. So I removed the clips from the stock holder, and pop-rivited them
to
> small ceramic strips I found at a surplus store. They now fit inside the
> handle of the Hawker Genesis 42A batteries!
>
> I usually get fuses from fuses unlimited in the bay area via mail order.
>
> One other tip: I found that I could put regular cheap 30V 5A Buss
> automotive fuses in series with the high voltage KLKD fuses in a battery
> equalizer application, where adjacent voltages were in that range. They
blow
> faster than the KLKD fuses--an I messed up enough to verify this
> experimentally (sample size 5). This is helpful because the KLKD fuses are
> $6.80 each, and they are also located in my difficult to reach battery
box.
>
> Gary
>
www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can't be sure and it does kind of worry me. We extended the conduit up
over the gap in the sheet metal and the battery box that was there which
would solve the problem if it was caused by rubbing there. The conduit used
to end about a foot short of coming up into the car. We also ran new wire
and a seperate conduit for the charger to the front control panel . It used
to have the positive charger wire connected right to the most positive post
which caused the wire to run right over the 8th batteries negative post.
Better connectors on the batteries so they don't heat up the posts and I
have to hope we fixed it, and park it outside while I charge it for the
first thousand times....
Mark,
Wow! Could you tell what caused the fire? I re-read Bob's post but it sounds like the original owner didn't know.
good luck,
Steve
In a message dated 12/29/2002 8:22:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well I finally got around to posting some pictures I took of the 80' VW
Rabbit that Bob Rice helped me pickup in Delaware a few week ago. Nice
closeup of melted batteries and bare 2/0 wires :-( And they
were brand new
batteries before they melted...
http://www.geocities.com/evblazer/VWFireGallery.html
Mark Hastings
'83 S-10 EV Blazer
www.geocities.com/evblazer
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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On 29 Dec 2002 at 12:41, Grannes, Dean wrote:
> I think the shunt in the ammeter failed open.
I haven't had one open for a while, but IIRC my FR chargers have a separate
shunt mounted on one side. I think it's a 30amp / 50mv shunt. The ammeter
is just a voltmeter that reads 50mv full scale.
It does sound like your shunt failed open, even though it's not in the meter
itself. You might be able to find a replacement at a surplus place, but you
can probably replace it with a length of ordinary copper wire (about #16 awg
or so) calibrated to the correct resistance. The wire won't be as accurate,
but in most cases you don't need high accuracy for this application anyway.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recommend picking up a good thermodynamics book - IC engine cycles are not
particularly efficient with their fuel!
Four stroke engines are complex to model, but there are two basic cycles:
* Otto cycle - spark ignition cycle (basic petrol model)
* Diesel cycle - compression ignition cycle
To model any engine successfully, the dual cycle is normally used, which
combines these two basic cycles... Thermal efficiency of an IC engine is defined
by the ratio of the net work produced by the engine to the total heat energy
provided by the fuel... If this really interests anyone I can recommend,
Thermodynamics, An Engineering Approach, by Cengel and Boles. It's not too dry -
quite readable as thermodynamics books go!
To get to the point: A petrol engine can (if you're lucky!) be 30% efficient and
a diesel engine can be around 35% efficient. Big diesel engines (ship engines
for example) can reach 40% thermal efficiency - but this still falls short of an
average electric motor...
Most of the conversions by people on the list seem to use 9 inch motors - which
are (at an educated guess) around 80% efficient at transferring their electric
power to work.
Even small electric motors that run at higher speeds are more efficient than IC
engines.
As you also point out - fuel is used in transporting liquid fuel to distribution
points - whereas the elctricity grid needs a relatively small amount of
maintenance...
James
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: EV's pollute more than ICE (argument)
---Rick Hartmann wrote:
>
>I have a friend who insists that EV's pollute more than ICE. His argument
>is that due to transmission line losses and transformer losses in grid
>distribution, it takes 2000 watts to get 1000 watts to the EV. Since they
>have to generate twice the power, it causes twice the pollution/carbon
>dioxide, etc.
>
>Has anyone done the math on this? My argument is that the pollution
>generated to get a unit of power (gallon of gas) to an ICE must be huge
>when one considers the energy and pollution to get the oil from the well,
>refined and to the gas pump.
>
>Can anyone provide hard data so I can put this guy in his place? Where can
>I find detailed hard data on the energy cost of getting gasoline to the
>pump and how much pollution that creates? Is there any detailed hard data
>on transmission line losses and how much is really lost versus what ends up
>charging the EV? I'm especially interested in how much power it takes to
>refine gasoline and how efficient refineries are in general (and how much
>they pollute).
>
>Thanks,
>Rick
Lots of facts and figures here:
"Debunking the Myth of EVs and Smokestacks"
http://www.princeton.edu/~bcjones/transportation/ev/myths.html
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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Sounds like more work that a conversion . But you saw it through , good for
you . Any non EV'ers that read this and think what a lot of trouble don't
know how much fun those EV's are. ( worth all the trouble X 10 ) .. Ever
notice that what ever your doing when your EV is charging is just fine . I
never mind long slow lines ect when my EV is plugged in and charging .
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 6:39 PM
Subject: Tropica #16 has it's plates - LONG
> Tropica #16 finally has it's plates. You say I already posted this in Oct?
Well I thought I was done. Not so fast bubba. It turns out that there was a
mistake made during the VIN # verification and an 'S' was mistaken for an
'8'. When my wife took the paperwork back to DMV in Oct to get my plates the
mistake was noticed and a reverification was required. Between traveling and
minor problems with the car, Oct and Nov were shot. In Dec came the rains
and the colder temps which reduced my already limited range with my abused
battery pack. I couldn't make it back to the same CHP so another solution
needed to be found. There is another CHP facility in San Martin, about 20
miles south from my home. I had been getting about 20 miles of range back
when it was warmer but now I was down to about 12. My temporary registration
expires at the end of Dec so I was running out of time. If it would just
stop raining for a bit. Remember the Tropica doesn't have a top. Adobe, like
many compani!
> es in the valley, shuts down for the holidays so I had some time. The
weather forecast said Dec 23 looked promising so I started my adventure.
>
> 8:00 - Drive from my home to Marcel's in Coyote, about 7 miles south. Help
him put up his Christmas lights while the car charges for about an hour.
>
> 9:30 - Leave Marcel's and head to my father in law's place in Morgan Hill,
about 7 miles further south. We walked to Just Breakfast for a bite and
chatted to kill about 3 hours while charging.
>
> 12:30 - Leave Morgan Hill for the 10 mile round trip to CHP in San Martin.
When we got to the CHP inspection facility, they refused to look at the VIN
# even though on the phone they said they would. She said that I would need
to go to the CHP facility in Gilroy, another 5 miles south. I explained my
limited range but she respond "why would you buy a car that can't get to
Gilroy from San Jose". She was going to be of no help. I called CHP in
Gilroy and they said they could look at it. I called my wife and we decided
to go for it. At this point I just wanted to get it done. If I had to get
towed home, so be it. My wife told me later that she contacted the local
rental yard to see if a trailer was available if needed.
>
> 1:30 - Off to CHP in Gilroy. Unfortunately the San Martin facility is on
the north bound lanes of hwy 101 so I had to travel north and then back
south. I arrived at CHP in Gilroy and they were wonderful. She inspected the
car while others came out to have a look. I mentioned that I needed to find
a place to plug in but she said that they had no outdoor outlets. If they
did, I would have been welcome to use them. Back inside she looked at the
paperworked and then asked, "Why did DMV give you this form?". DMV had given
my wife the wrong form. ARG!@#$! I called my wife and she offered to drive
to DMV, pick up the correct form and drive it to Gilroy. I passed this on to
the officer who asked if it would be possible to fax it, then she paused and
dialed the phone. She called the local DMV and had them fax the form. I was
told that DMV said they would get right on it but that usually means it will
be a while. I left her with my cel # and went of in seach of a friendly
outlet. I di!
> dn't have to look far. It turns out that there was an outlet right near
where the car was parked and she said I welcome to use it.
>
> 4:30 - Signed paperwork in hand and some charge back in the batteries we
headed north back to Morgan Hill. No freeway speeds here. I couldn't afford
the extra current draw.
>
> 5:00 - Back in Morgan Hill I plugged in the car. My next problem was that
my family was going to dinner with some friends in San Jose at 6:30. I
wasn't going to get enough charge in time to make dinner so my father in law
drove me home and we left the car to charge.
>
> 8:30 - After dinner, Marcel drove me back to Morgan Hill to pick up the
car and I headed back to his place in Coyote for some more charge.
>
> 10:00 - Finally the last leg from Coyote to home. By now it was about 45
degrees. I don't even want to know what the wind chill was, I was COLD!
>
> Dec 24
> Against my better judgement, my whole family headed to DMV to finish the
registration and get my plates. I was sure something else would go wrong and
really didn't want to be bummed on Christmas Eve. When we got to the front
of the line, we handed the paperwork to a clerk who looked it over and then
said, "Why didn't CHP fill out these 2 sections". Sigh, I knew it. She gave
us a number anyway so we waited our turn. When our number was called we went
to the window, handed over the paperwork and explained our needs. The
gentleman was very helpful and even asked if I knew about the Clean Air HOV
Access stickers. He signed us off and handed us our plates. As we walked
towards the door I was waiting for someone to say "Wait, you still need
to..." but it never happended. I installed the plates as soon as we got home
and removed the temporary sticker.
>
> My wife suprised me with personalized plates. '121GWAT' Think Back to the
Future.
>
> It was a very Merry Christmas,
>
> Steve
>
>
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