EV Digest 2546
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GM hybrids: too little, too late, what for?
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric Boat
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New AC motors and inverters (was newbie EV questions)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Electric Boat
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Boat
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) ZAP battery press release
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ZAP battery press release
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: ZAP battery press release
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: ZAP battery press release
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV talk/lawn mowers
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: ZAP battery press release
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Aquarium Chillers
by "Mitchell Oates" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've read about one big pickup "hybrid" where regenerative braking
compresses hydraulic fluid into large nitrogen filled canisters (putting the
nitrogen under high pressure). This stored kinetic energy can then be called
upon to make the truck take off from a light by running past it's own little
torque converter and dumping back into the reservoir.
Yes, that would be a hybrid. ICE power and compressed gas - with the
recharging coming from regen braking. You STILL can't plug it in (unless you
wanted to hook up something to pump the hydraulic fluid into the high
pressure reservoir) but it can be marketed as having two power systems.
It actually seemed to make sense to me, if all you were looking at was
something to give tire turning torque at the stoplight, you don't HAVE to
have a big V-8 in every SUV.
KC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: GM hybrids: too little, too late, what for?
> Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> > [snip] Watt do you think of the US automaker's announced efforts to
> > clean up their act with 'fat-free fat' hybrid SUVs?
>
> Since the public position of all the US auto companies is that EVs don't
> sell and won't work, they aren't likely to build any hybrids that have
> any significant EV capabilities.
>
> But if "hybrid" turns out to be a marketable word (i.e. they can sell a
> car for more if they call it a "hybrid", then they will build "hybrids".
> However, they are likely to be extremely mild hybrids, with negligible
> EV capability.
>
> In the eyes of marketing, a completely ordinary car becomes a "hybrid"
> if they simply allow the starter motor to be engaged while the car is in
> gear, and add idle-stop to the engine computer.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The vast majority of the pollution we face today is emissions incurred in
the name of transportation. To be sure, ZEVs are much cleaner at the
tailpipe or anywhere else than their ICE counterparts but implying that ZEVs
are truly effectively emissionless vehicles when powered by the current
electrical infrastructure can also amount to misinformation if it implies
that this pollution would just go away if we all drove them instead.
In time the power generation infrastructure will become much cleaner and the
investment we make today in zero emission tailpipes will enable us to
approach true zero emission transportation. Until then, I think we should
be careful to be clear on what we claim so that we don't perpetuate our own
brand of misinformation.
Steve
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Electro Automotive
> Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 12:05 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: With Friends Like These. . .
>
>
> At 07:09 PM 1/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
> >Sounds like I need to be educated, too. I think that a sustantial
> >fraction of electricity consumed in the US is generated by burning
> >fossil fuels which produces greenhouse gasses and other pollutants.
> >Our electric utilities and producers have fleets of motor
> vehicles used
> >for mainenance, repair, construction, meter reading, etc.
> Manufacture
> >of generation and distribution equipment, construction of dams, power
> >plants, etc. all contribute to pollution and greenhouse gasses.
>
> See Chip Gribben's excellent paper at
> http://www.princeton.edu/~bcjones/transportation/ev/myths.html
>
> I agree that manufacturing equipment has its own pollution
> issues. So does
> manufacturing solar panels. But "automotive emissions", in
> terms of ICE
> cars, refers to ONLY the emissions produced by the vehicle
> itself, so it
> should be done comparably for EVs.
>
> Comparing power plant emissions to refinery emissions is
> another issue. A
> Jan. 10 editorial in the SF Chron. pointed out that
> refineries are one of
> the major factors in Bay Area air pollution.
>
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113
> Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos *
> Since 1979
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
>
> 2003 F250 (current year is easy to find specs for!)
> Curb Weight: 5420
> GVWR: 8800
> Towing Max: 12,500
> Payload Base Capacity: 3380
>
> What about using one of Victors AC Drives?
> How many volts could be had with 2000 lbs of 6V floodeds?
Yes, you can do it with 45 kW AC motor. Please consider this:
http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/ecars/transporter/sprinter/alternative/elektro_umwelt.htm
(you may need to re-paste the link together)
Article does not mention it, but the Splinter uses Siemens
5135 motor, may be higher torque version.
5135 motor has greatest thermal reserve, and while other motors
(like 9" ADC) may have the same raw power, they won't sustain it for
long without very effective cooling. Siemens AC motors are water cooled.
You won't need 2 AC motors to do the job. I don't want to sound
too optimistic and can offer performance simulation.
I must mention two of my customers have 30 kW version for
Ford Rangers, one is on the road. It is lighter than F250,
but so are their motors.
As an idea in general, large EV vehicles are just as doable
as the small ones; you scale up drive train components and
battery as necessary. See this:
http://www.betard.co.uk/vehicles.htm
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2003-01-20 at 06:28, Mark Hanson wrote:
> > What is the recepe' for water skiing behind an electric boat (batts, motor,
> > boat type)? I H2o ski behind a gasser but would like it to be electric but
> > can't figure out how to get more than a few minutes run time in electric
> > mode at 20mph pulling a skier.
>
> A couple minutes at 20 mph pulling a skier sounds pretty repectable.
>
Would something like this work?
http://www.metricmind.com/boat.htm
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
>
> Victor wrote:
> >Also, newer inverters (Simotion) are available too.
> >Smaller, smarter software, about the same power. These don't
> >have integrated DC-DC though. I'll update web site soon,
> >just heads up.
>
> Interesting stuff you are looking at Victor. Anyway, this one part
> brought one thought into my head. Why, other than smaller, would a
> person want the newer "Simotion" inverter? Especially if the price is
> expected to be slightly higher.
You got valid question. Personally, I like more older style with
integrated everything. But we have limited supply and will eventually
run out of those. Newer inverters is what Siemens produces and can
built to order, and they won't build older version. New inverters
are more robust, just a CPU board and large six pack IGBT module
on a water cooled heat sink - slick design. Not as many discrete
ICs as in older style. And, I believe, it's 420V 320A rms max,
(~130 kW) I need to check on that.
As of price, I'm quoting from what I get charged. These actually
must cost less for Siemens to produce (except software development
pay off).
> That stout built in DC>DC is one of the high points of your current
> offerings (its not easy to find 50 amps or more of DC>DC at a
> reasonable price).
Siemens offers stand alone DC-DC and this is likely the reason they
chose not to integrate it in. With integrated one you have no choice
to use more or less powerful one, only what comes with the inverter.
That's what I think. Yes, it's difficult to make a good DC-DC.
Older version provides 60A continuous, 90A for 3 min and >100A peak.
Newer Siemens DC-DC have 42V output as well (not than we need it, but
we know why...)
> Neon
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-01-20 at 15:14, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Would something like this work?
>
> http://www.metricmind.com/boat.htm
Although reduced "nose" pollution is probably a good thing, I doubt that
is what the page is supposed to say. :-)
Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
>
> Sounds like the 6000lb trailer would be a bit over rated tow load for a Toyota.
> I wouldn't mind a smaller truck, but the tounge weight of my trailer is
> probably 1000 lbs. Last I knew, a Toyotas entire load capacity was around
> 1500 lbs, and once you subtract battery weight from that....
> One reason I was thinking of something like an F250 was it's high load
> capacity, which even after 1500 lbs of batteries would be around 1500 lbs.
>
> 2003 F250 (current year is easy to find specs for!)
> Curb Weight: 5420
> GVWR: 8800
> Towing Max: 12,500
> Payload Base Capacity: 3380
>
> What about using one of Victors AC Drives?
> How many volts could be had with 2000 lbs of 6V floodeds?
>
> At 10:52 AM 1/20/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal stated:
> >Short answer = yes, and then some.
> >
> >Check out the EVDL Photo Album under Toyota's, look for the Red Beasty.
> >John Wayland helped build this truck and owned it for a while. It has
> >2400 lbs of batteries on board and had a range (without trailer) of 100+
> >miles. He used to pull a double axle(?) trailer to the drag races with
> >his EV racer and a small EV tractor on board. I don't think the
> >trailer+cargo weighed 10,000 lbs (probably closer to 6,000), but he used
> >to pull it at highway speeds for 40+ miles.
> >
> >Doing the same thing on an F250 would eat up about 1/2 it's Payload
> >capacity. Plus the F250 is about twice as heavy as the small Toyota, so
> >you will need a bigger motor and controller.
> >
> >I believe he used a single 9" ADC. In your case you might want to use
> >two ADCs and maybe Otmar's new 500+hp controller ;-).
> >
> >Seems to me the main problem might be stopping it, total weight is going
> >to be over 17,000 lbs. Still that is within the total combined rating
> >for this truck
> >
> >P.S. isn't 10,000 lbs way over the rated tow limit for an F250?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
I would say the the AC drive from Victor might be a little under
powered.
When you spec a truck for pulling, the continuous power levels become
rather important.
Twin 9s or Warp 11 or larger will be needed to support this level of
power. There is one and only one controller that can do this DC that we
know of. It's the Zilla 2K. I don't know what it's full power 30 min
ratting would be... Ot and I have spent a few hours yakking this
weekend. I have no doubt that the Z2K is the stoutest controller out
there. I want one.....And Well Ot needs a charger....
I have been mind gaming a Hyper Truck, with Evercells, and Military
NiCads...50 to 100 mile range and 10 Seconds in the 1/4 mile.
If Otmar doesn't know how hard his Z2K can pull and for how long... I
hope to tell him. I am certain that ot knows the peaks...It's a
different story when the argument is a couple of minutes and a few 1000
ft of elevation gain. Like wise when hauling 14,000 lbs in a full sized
pick up truck down I-5 at 75mph.
Outside of a truck the Fiero with a ZK2 in it... is gonna make some
DATsuns sweat some blood!!
A big engineering issue will be cooling the motors in a EV hauler. The
Ac drives can do 50 KW basicly continuous, with a water cooled motor and
controller. The AvDC 9 incher will cook pretty quick at 1000 amps. In
Fact I will guess that death will occur in less than 5 min at 1000 amps.
Maybe in less than 60 seconds. The 8s go in about 30 seconds of 1200
amps. I have the pieces.... So Forced cooling fans, thermal cut backs...
and safties are going to required. The formula lightning's had dry Ice,
and blowers, and pre cooled the AC drives for about a hour before
racing. a EV truck with 250 Kw Is going to need to extract about 25Kw of
heat from the motor.. This is Buss drive level power... Hey Seth?????
how long and hard can a EV Buss be run??
Then we have the battery stack and the 250 Kw charger and Gen set.
This is not a Job for the timid or the light of wallet.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now I know at least one guy read it :-)
...Will fix it tonight...
Victor
Lonnie Borntreger wrote:
>
> On Mon, 2003-01-20 at 15:14, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Would something like this work?
> >
> > http://www.metricmind.com/boat.htm
>
> Although reduced "nose" pollution is probably a good thing, I doubt that
> is what the page is supposed to say. :-)
>
> Lonnie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
>
> I would say the the AC drive from Victor might be a little under
> powered.
Definition of "underpowered" from Rich?? EVERYTHING is underpowered.
Did he ever say any car has too much power? You don't know Rich! :-)
Seriously,
> When you spec a truck for pulling, the continuous power levels become
> rather important.
I believe a 45 kW with proper gearing would do it just fine.
He's not going to race 17,000 lb truck, is he?
If trucking such a loads all the time is sole purpose of the
truck, 2 30 kW motors *might* be better solution, but of this
required once in a while, if acceleration is sluggish, he can
survive. Loaded semis take forever to get to speed, so?
I see trucks on the Mt Hood crawling uphill at 15...25 mph on
the low gear on the right lane. Are they all underpowered?
They are designed to have adequate performance for typical
loads they expect to haul, more is considered a waste.
Not trying to push anything, just thinking when F250 will run
empty (which is most the time as I understand), 45 kW continuous
will be more than enough.
Again, 'course no power is enough for Rich... :=D
Victor
ps. Can someone define "enough" for a loaded truck?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:00 PM 1/20/2003 -0800, Kevin Coughlin stated:
A ton of 6 volts.... maybe about 166 vdc worth (with T-145 batteries @ 72
pounds) to 193 (with T-105's @ 62 pounds).
However, this sounds like something that might be a good test of the
homebrew pickup hybrid..... Get a 4wd with small ICE - leave it connected up
front, and yank the driveshaft and pop a nice high RPM ac motor into the
I've actually thought about that, or just have the long-trip genset in back.
Hmm, Evercell MB100's only weigh 48lbs each. Using those for a 2000 lb
pack you could run at 492V !
Of course I don't think you could wedge 41 MB100's under a truck bed.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I believe a 45 kW with proper gearing would do it just fine.
>
> He's not going to race 17,000 lb truck, is he?
On flat ground with all day to accelerate, yes 45kw might do it (up to
60-65 mph).
It won't do it if you have to climb ANY kind of hill at speed. I
punched some rough numbers into Uve's calculator and figured that a 5%
incline at 50 mph would require about 110kw (and a 5% grade is not even
particularly steep).
At max output your AC systems could only handle a 5% grade at about 30
mph. A 7% grade at 25 mph and a 12% grade (now THAT is steep) at about
10-15 mph.
Normally I'd recommend your system to someone who could afford it
Victor, but not for this application.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:13 PM 1/20/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal stated:
punched some rough numbers into Uve's calculator and figured that a 5%
incline at 50 mph would require about 110kw (and a 5% grade is not even
particularly steep).
I consider a 5% grade to be pretty damn steep. Steep enough for the Hwy
dept to put up warning signs, and for big trucks to come down to a
crawl. It is extremely rare to find a hill like that on a freeway, and
pretty rare elsewhere.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > I believe a 45 kW with proper gearing would do it just fine.
> >
> > He's not going to race 17,000 lb truck, is he?
>
> On flat ground with all day to accelerate, yes 45kw might do it (up to
> 60-65 mph).
>
> It won't do it if you have to climb ANY kind of hill at speed. I
> punched some rough numbers into Uve's calculator and figured that a 5%
> incline at 50 mph would require about 110kw (and a 5% grade is not even
> particularly steep).
>
> At max output your AC systems could only handle a 5% grade at about 30
> mph. A 7% grade at 25 mph and a 12% grade (now THAT is steep) at about
> 10-15 mph.
>
A comparable continuous power DC system will cost about the same
as Siemens AC (but, I agree, cheaper than an AC system in general).
If you want 110 kW and so must use 2 11" motors it is no different
than use 2 45 kW AC motors. Compare apples to apples.
45kW is 45 kW, AC or DC. AND, in my case, 45kW AC/$ = 45kW DC/$
(most likely), we can check that. If he happens to need 2 motors
(according to Uve's calc), so be it. I misjudged thinking that
one 45 kW will perform well. To haul from A to B on the flat
it might. To go uphill at 50 mph it indeed won't.
> Normally I'd recommend your system to someone who could afford it
> Victor, but not for this application.
Thanks Peter. from previous posts I didn't notice we were discussing
money, and didn't realize you know he can or can't afford something.
We were debating if 45 kW would do it. And, 50 mph continuously @ 5%
incline in a truck with a trailer totaling 17,000 lb is pretty
demanding, I didn't think of THAT kind of expectation, or would
recommend 2 motors also.
I'd be slowing down even having 4 motors...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it's possible. To get an approximate idea about what would be
involved, consider
that an F-250 weighs about twice as much as a Ranger or S-10. So the F-250
would need
about twice as much motor and controller and batteries to get the same
performance.
The F-250 would suffer from the same battery weight versus payload
predicament that
any EV pickup suffers from.
10000 lb trailer gross weight should be doable if you don't have to go up
steep hills and if
you don't need to hurry tokeep up with traffic.
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: Truck (im)possibility
> I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert something like a Ford
F250
> truck to an EV, and still be able to use it as a truck.
> I have occasional need for a pickup truck (and no, renting one isn't
> possible). The big problem is that one of the things I need to use the
> truck for is to pull my equipment trailer. (Take the tractor to the shop,
> move a car, etc..) This is a 3 axle trailer that is about 4000 lbs
> empty. Tractor adds another 6000 lbs of load.
>
> Would it be possible to have a conversion truck that could:
> A) Have a 40-50 mile range WITHOUT the trailer.
> B) Have a 10-20 mile range WITH the trailer?
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the following press release recently appeared on ZAP's site... there is a photo
of the "ZAP Battery" on this page that seems very familiar, but I can't recall
where I've seen it before (a quick review of my battery-related bookmarks didn't
uncover it)... anyone recognize what that actually is?
http://www.zapworld.com/news/ces010603.htm
SEBASTOPOL, Calif. (January 6, 2003) Electronic transportation developer ZAP
(OTC BB:ZAPZ) today announced plans to unveil a new technology that appears to
triple the performance of todays battery-powered vehicles.
[...]
Table 1 - Battery Characteristics
Range Energy (Whr/kl) Power (W/kg) Cycles
Lead-acid 60 miles 35 150 500
ZAP Battery 240 miles 200 400 1000
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the Metricmind website I saw a group of battery pictures, and the one
that looks the closest is the Worley Energy Cells Lithium Polymer battery
(picture on the link below).
<http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/images/liion.jpg>
So, how much does a pack of Lithium batteries cost?
KC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Uzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evug list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 3:38 PM
Subject: ZAP battery press release
> the following press release recently appeared on ZAP's site... there is a
photo
> of the "ZAP Battery" on this page that seems very familiar, but I can't
recall
> where I've seen it before (a quick review of my battery-related bookmarks
didn't
> uncover it)... anyone recognize what that actually is?
>
>
> http://www.zapworld.com/news/ces010603.htm
>
> SEBASTOPOL, Calif. (January 6, 2003) Electronic transportation developer
ZAP
> (OTC BB:ZAPZ) today announced plans to unveil a new technology that
appears to
> triple the performance of todays battery-powered vehicles.
>
> [...]
>
> Table 1 - Battery Characteristics
> Range Energy (Whr/kl) Power (W/kg) Cycles
> Lead-acid 60 miles 35 150 500
> ZAP Battery 240 miles 200 400 1000
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
>
> the following press release recently appeared on ZAP's site... there is a photo
> of the "ZAP Battery" on this page that seems very familiar, but I can't recall
> where I've seen it before (a quick review of my battery-related bookmarks didn't
> uncover it)... anyone recognize what that actually is?
>
> http://www.zapworld.com/news/ces010603.htm
>
Sure. It's TS-LP8581B 100Ah LiIon cell made and sold by Thunder-sky
in China http://www.worley.com.au/wecs/LithION.html and also sold
by Worley Energy Cells http://www.worley.com.au/wecs/LithION.html
Thunder-sky web site is a bit outdated, they no longer make
TS-LP8581A cell shown there.
(... which tries to impress by G2 and some other futuristic cars...
http://www.worley.com./media/examples/G2/Webpics/G2_KitaCar2.jpg)
As of pricing, a single 100 Ah cell is $300 and 100 are $150 today,
but it's difficult to get them in the US.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the following press release recently appeared on ZAP's site... there
is a photo
of the "ZAP Battery" on this page that seems very familiar, but I can't recall
where I've seen it before (a quick review of my battery-related
bookmarks didn't
uncover it)... anyone recognize what that actually is?
http://www.zapworld.com/news/ces010603.htm
SEBASTOPOL, Calif. (January 6, 2003) Electronic transportation developer ZAP
(OTC BB:ZAPZ) today announced plans to unveil a new technology that appears to
triple the performance of todays battery-powered vehicles.
[...]
Table 1 - Battery Characteristics
Range Energy (Whr/kl) Power (W/kg) Cycles
Lead-acid 60 miles 35 150 500
ZAP Battery 240 miles 200 400 1000
that is definitely a Thunder Sky Li-Ion cell. The exact same casing
is shown on the products page of the Thunder Sky website (
http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs(En).htm ) as model TS-LP6163A. The
only difference being that the stats for the Thunder Sky model are
very different. 184 Wh/L, 390 W/Kg, 500 cycles. But the casing is
exactly the same and quite distinctive.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have towed a lot of things with my 120v 400amp ford ranger largest so for
was another ford ranger with lawn mower and trailer (his not mine) . did it
in 2nd to . 200 amps at 30mph (as i remember) . With a 6000 lbs trailer
somebody running into the back of you would not be a problem (might not even
know it happened . is driving slow am option
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:15 AM
Subject: Truck (im)possibility
> I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert something like a Ford
F250
> truck to an EV, and still be able to use it as a truck.
> I have occasional need for a pickup truck (and no, renting one isn't
> possible). The big problem is that one of the things I need to use the
> truck for is to pull my equipment trailer. (Take the tractor to the shop,
> move a car, etc..) This is a 3 axle trailer that is about 4000 lbs
> empty. Tractor adds another 6000 lbs of load.
>
> Would it be possible to have a conversion truck that could:
> A) Have a 40-50 mile range WITHOUT the trailer.
> B) Have a 10-20 mile range WITH the trailer?
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> But, why not just use one of the commercially available electrics?
My point was not that I wanted to convert my mower to electric but that I
understood why people Don't convert/buy electric cars even though I have
three EV's and believe in them i do run a gas mower . . Yes I know I should
do something . I
could at least switch to LP gas for starters . . after 20 years i have
things runing
like a well oiled clock and just don't want any problems(sounds like joe 6
pack). I am in and out in 20 min . Switching to a small electric mower that
might take 2 hours to do the same work is not to appealing (I sound just
like "them " now). I did get a smaller fuel eff engine and it uses 1/2
the gas that the old engine did (patting myself on that back for making a
small small change, just like them) . I'm also hoping to get out of the
lawn bis and into the EV conversion bis any minute now :-) ( more excuses
just like them) ..
>
>
> been using my B&D M1000 for about 3 years now. It's got a bit smaller
> mowing deck then most. It also has limited "range", like all things EV,
but
> with your experience you could easily change that. It is setup as a 24V
> system. I'm sure you could either beef up the battery pack or setup a
dump
> charge system for quick recharges. With a beefy enough DC to DC converter
> you could get pretty quick charges off your traction pack, then let your
EV
> recharge while you work.
>
> damon
I am thinking about it . sure would be a lot nicer not the hear the engine
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: EV talk/lawn mowers
> >Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:21:01 -0800
> >
> >I have though about it quite a bit
> >I could fast charge it from my truck pack . I only need it to run 15/30
> >min per hour . I can plug my truck into 30% of my customers dryers
outlets
> >.
> >I have even considered using a ADC 6.7 motor that was for sale but now
gone
> >. that and 3 yellow tops . I'll be replacing a 18 hp gas burner . 7kw
??
> >200 amp draw on the 3 YT this is off the top of my head . another way of
> >looking at it is I use a gallon/10 yards/3 hours = 3 yt charged 3 times
or
> >500 lbs of lead .
> >now 36 v may not be enough to drive a adc 6.7
> >is there a number of KW hours that = gallon of gas ?
> >
> >The reasons that I don't all sound like the reason that people have for
not
> >converting there cars to electric or having somebody do it for them.
> >1 I don't have time .
> >2 I don't have money (for that!)
> >3 I can't afford to have something brake
> >4 it will be slower that what I have
> >5 I won't be doing this much longer.
> >I always think about this when talking to people that tell me "that's not
> >for me" . I'm just lucky that I can . The lawn mower would be a lot
more
> >work that converting a gas car and the car would be a lot more fun. A EV
> >car
> >would also do much more toward the EV/clean air/ect were the lawn mower
> >would not. Every EV conversion on the road shows people what can be done
> >now
> >.
> >just like them
> >Steve Clunn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 7:34 AM
> >Subject: Re: EV talk
> >
> >
> > > That's great, but why don't you also have an electric lawm mower ?
> > > You could always carry an extra battery pack for the mower or even an
> > > extra charger or recharge atleast once from the vehicle if its an
> > > emergency.
> > >
> > > On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 09:27:50 -0800 "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > > > My ford ranger has 3 bats in the front . When I'm gassing up the
> > > > lawn mower
> > > > which is on a trailer behind the truck and a crowd gathers round to
> > > > look
> > > > under the hood . I give my little EV speech and I if don't point out
> > > > the
> > > > bats under the bed of the truck somebody will always ask "and it
> > > > runs on
> > > > just 3 batteries?" This really is not to hard to understand as they
> > > > are
> > > > looking at something they've been told can't work in the first place
> > > > . There
> > > > minds are being opened and the brains just slip right out.
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:29 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: EV talk
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > On 17 Jan 2003 at 16:44, jon wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "How many D cells does it take?"
> > > > >
> > > > > When I had my Comuta-Car, I bought two 4-cell plastic flashlight
> > > > cell
> > > > > holders from an electronic parts store. I wired them to a hunk of
> > > > zip
> > > > cord,
> > > > > filled 'em up, tied the free end of the zip cord to something
> > > > under the
> > > > dash
> > > > > of the car, and chucked them on the shelf under the dash (the one
> > > > that
> > > > used
> > > > > to hold a charger in the old Citicars).
> > > > >
> > > > > When someone asked the inevitable question, "Does it ^really^ run
> > > > on
> > > > > batteries?" I'd pull out the battery holders and show him. Some
> > > > folks
> > > > > actually believed me. It's amazing how poor science education is
> > > > these
> > > > > days.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > > = =
> > > > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
> > > > vacation, or
> > > > > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > > = =
> > > > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > > > > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > > > > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > > > > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > > > > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > > = =
> > > > > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
> > > > to all
> > > > > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite
> > > > thee.
> > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > > > = =
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
> > > Only $9.95 per month!
> > > Visit www.juno.com
> > >
> > >
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online
> http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-01-20 at 16:34, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > > I believe a 45 kW with proper gearing would do it just fine.
> > >
> > > He's not going to race 17,000 lb truck, is he?
> >
> > On flat ground with all day to accelerate, yes 45kw might do it (up to
> > 60-65 mph).
> >
> > It won't do it if you have to climb ANY kind of hill at speed. I
> > punched some rough numbers into Uve's calculator and figured that a 5%
> > incline at 50 mph would require about 110kw (and a 5% grade is not even
> > particularly steep).
> >
> > At max output your AC systems could only handle a 5% grade at about 30
> > mph. A 7% grade at 25 mph and a 12% grade (now THAT is steep) at about
> > 10-15 mph.
> >
>
> A comparable continuous power DC system will cost about the same
> as Siemens AC (but, I agree, cheaper than an AC system in general).
>
> If you want 110 kW and so must use 2 11" motors it is no different
> than use 2 45 kW AC motors. Compare apples to apples.
Except I can drive two 9" motors with a single (powerful) DC
controller. Two AC motors would require TWO AC controllers, in your
case, and still have an upper limit of 156kw output (for approx 3
minutes)
Two 9" ADC's and one of Otmar's new controllers can produce over 500 KW
(briefly) and easily over 156KW for 3 minutes.
However, I was thinking of a more affordable DC option, a Raptor 1200
and two 9" ADC motors (total cost slightly over $5,000)
Continuous rated output would be approx 52kw (Only slightly more than a
single WS14, but much cheaper). However this system has a maximum power
output of approx 140kw, compared to only 78kw for the WS14.
Granted two complete WS14 systems (motor+controller) could math this,
but that would cost well over twice as much, perhaps three times as
much?
>
> 45kW is 45 kW, AC or DC. AND, in my case, 45kW AC/$ = 45kW DC/$
> (most likely), we can check that. If he happens to need 2 motors
45kw perhaps, but not 140-150 kw
> (according to Uve's calc), so be it. I misjudged thinking that
> one 45 kW will perform well. To haul from A to B on the flat
> it might. To go uphill at 50 mph it indeed won't.
I was only using 50 mph on a 5% grade to illustrate a point that MOST EV
drivers would be familiar with. i.e the steady state energy
requirements for 50 mph are roughly the same as mild to moderate
acceleration up the same hill, like accelerating up a freeway onramp to
merge, or accelerating from a stop up a hill.
5% grades on onramps are not uncommon. To put it in perspective a 5%
grade rises 5 feet for every 100 feet in length. I've seen paved roads
here in the sates that were a 12% grade and I've seen steeper paved
roads in Portugal.
> > Normally I'd recommend your system to someone who could afford it
> > Victor, but not for this application.
>
> Thanks Peter. from previous posts I didn't notice we were discussing
> money, and didn't realize you know he can or can't afford something.
> We were debating if 45 kW would do it. And, 50 mph continuously @ 5%
> incline in a truck with a trailer totaling 17,000 lb is pretty
> demanding, I didn't think of THAT kind of expectation, or would
> recommend 2 motors also.
>
I wasn't talking about money until now, merely pointing out that a
single AC setup is not up to this task, not if you expect freeway
capability.
I realize that John is unlikely to spend the money this project would
require anyway, but if he was I think it's reasonable to point out that
a comparable AC setup will cost two to three times as much for the
motor/controller (talking Max power here).
Even after adding a DC/DC, throttle pot, and main contactors to the Dual
9"+ Raptor setup it would cost less than a single WS14 setup.
In this case the DC setup would be powerful enough to accelerate up an
onramp to a safe merging speed, with only 1/2 the maximum power I don't
think the WS14 could.
At the top of the ramp the DC setup would be going 40-50 mph and the AC
only 20-25.
My apples in this case are dollars.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<PRE>I wonder if this wouldn't be doable with a G-van like mine with an upgraded
(Ni-Cad or ?) battery pack. Its a `91 1 Ton Chevy (hell for stout drive train
and hydroboost brakes) and the motor is a Nelco sep-ex rated @ 60 Hp cont
(IIRC) that was originally designed for trolleys, according to the Nelco
website. Might need to upgrade the motor cooling a bit, but ? David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:41 PM 1/20/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
I wasn't talking about money until now, merely pointing out that a
single AC setup is not up to this task, not if you expect freeway
capability.
I realize that John is unlikely to spend the money this project would
require anyway, but if he was I think it's reasonable to point out that
a comparable AC setup will cost two to three times as much for the
motor/controller (talking Max power here).
Even after adding a DC/DC, throttle pot, and main contactors to the Dual
9"+ Raptor setup it would cost less than a single WS14 setup.
In this case the DC setup would be powerful enough to accelerate up an
onramp to a safe merging speed, with only 1/2 the maximum power I don't
think the WS14 could.
At the top of the ramp the DC setup would be going 40-50 mph and the AC
only 20-25.
My apples in this case are dollars.
Interesting. Frankly I'm trying to figure out if such a vehicle would be
possible, and how much I'd have to save to do it. My income has increased
lately, so it isn't impossible that I would make one.
The one thing you don't mention is that the DC setup doesn't have regen,
but the AC does. Of course I'm still not sure if regen is worth that much.
A good base truck could be had for 5 or 6K$.
I wonder how many MB100's could fit under a truck bed? Or 6V floodeds? Or
surplus NiCd?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Sam,
This is the Thunder-Sky Li-Ion battery. See it at
http://www.thunder-sky.com/Cpjs_next1(En).htm
Zap recently order several of these batteries. Their order
confirmation sheet was recently on the Thunder-Sky web site. I guess
Thunder-Sky was proud of the order and wanted the whole world to see.
Alex Karahalios
On Monday, January 20, 2003, at 04:38 PM, Sam Uzi wrote:
the following press release recently appeared on ZAP's site... there
is a photo
of the "ZAP Battery" on this page that seems very familiar, but I
can't recall
where I've seen it before (a quick review of my battery-related
bookmarks didn't
uncover it)... anyone recognize what that actually is?
http://www.zapworld.com/news/ces010603.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John;
You might buy a retired electric bus that needs batteries for less than the
cost of the components. They come up at auctions occasionally and sometimes
sell cheap.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Truck (im)possibility
> Interesting. Frankly I'm trying to figure out if such a vehicle would be
> possible, and how much I'd have to save to do it. My income has increased
> lately, so it isn't impossible that I would make one.
> The one thing you don't mention is that the DC setup doesn't have regen,
> but the AC does. Of course I'm still not sure if regen is worth that
much.
> A good base truck could be had for 5 or 6K$.
> I wonder how many MB100's could fit under a truck bed? Or 6V floodeds?
Or
> surplus NiCd?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Jan 2003, at 16:22, Thomas Shay wrote:
> Maybe it would just be easier to minimze battery heating.
> Remove any insulation and allow for good air circulation around each
> battery. Arrrange for motion of the truck to move air past the batteries.
> Park the truck in the shade. Give the truck an occasional day off when
> the weather is hotter than usual.
>
Tried all of the above, including a white tonneau cover over the
bed for when it's parked in the sun at work. But when normal
ambient is running close to 35 C, and you have 24 batteries in the
rear box ( read significant thermal mass ), you're spending more
time with the truck parked than running for at least 4 months of the
year in this area.
Lee Hart has posted before how consistent elevated temps can
shorten the life of batteries. For flooded golf cart batteries, it's more
a matter of extending the life of the pack. For those looking at
using Ni-Zn batteries, with the added cost and the 30 C temp limit
on charging (unless something has changed in the past year),
temp control definitely becomes a high priority matter.
For lead acid batteries, we're not talking high tech here, just
simple heat transfer and fluid flow. With the insulation inside the
rear box, it only takes 90 watts of heat to maintain those 24
batteries at 25 C when ambient temps are close to or below 0 C - a
25 C delta T. For cooling, again maintaining their temp at 25 C,
we're talking a 10 C delta T or less. The same idea as your
refrigerator or freezer - use insulation to keep heat out and
minimize run time necessary to maintain temp, and allow you to
get by with a smaller heat transfer system than would be
necessary without the insulation.
Also, with 24 batteries you have a lot of thermal mass. Once
down to the correct temp, they'll be able to absorb a lot of heat
without a significant temp rise. Same idea as your freezer, when
they advise you to keep it as full as possible to minimize energy
useage. Once frozen, the thermal mass of the food will help
maintain temperature.
I envisage the system as being plugged in and operating for the
14 hours that the truck would be idle overnight. Instead of a brute
force high capacity cooling system designed to remove as much
heat as possible in as short a period as possible, a lower capacity
and lower power draw system that will operate over a long period at
night and early morning when ambient temps are lowest.
For cooling the batteries, two loops of either copper tube or 3/8"
ID tygon inside 1/2" C channel aluminum rail in the bottom of the
box, with a metal plate on top to maximize heat transfer area. The
loops would initially run down the center of the box, the coldest
water thus going to the center of the box and area of highest heat,
and then loop out to the outside areas of the box before exiting.
I'm leaning toward copper tube, as there's one less transition for
heat transfer to occur over. Instead of battery/plate/rail/plastic
tube/water, you would have battery/plate/copper tube/water. Also, if
I remember correctly, metal will conduct heat better than soft
plastic.
As far as the heat removal part of the system, it could be as
low tech as a small pump and an ice chest that you could dump a
couple bags of ice in, if that proves sufficient to remove the
necessary amount of heat. It would also be easily removeable
during the winter months. On the down side, from trying this route
with the Icester for air conditioning, it does get tiresome having to
daily drain and refill the ice chest and ensuring an adequate supply
of ice.
Another option would be to combine the ice chest with several
of the Cool Works IceProbes. You would already be starting with
an insulated tank, and the feature of having the cold side of the
probe in direct contact with the water would seem to promise more
efficient heat transfer. If thru additional driving other than your
normal commute, heat is being added faster than the system's
ability to remove it, you would have the option as above of adding a
couple bags of ice to the chest to boost heat removal. Additionally,
since the Iceprobe runs off of 12 or 24 V DC, they could be
configured so that the system runs 24/7.
With any of the larger in-line or remote coil thermoelectric or
freon chillers, the system starts getting more complex and taking
up more space, along with more expensive and being limited to AC
plug-in-at-home operation. You'd still need an insulated tank and
circulation pump for the battery box coils. Given the recommended
flow rates for some of these larger chillers ( 8 gpm and up ), you
might also need a separate circulation pump and tubing from the
chiller to the tank to ensure proper operation.
Mitch Oates
--- End Message ---
