EV Digest 2545
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battery Internal resistance
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: dynamic battery information
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) California Procurement process for Alternative Fuel Vehicles
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Anyone heard of this person?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Electric Boat
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: needing a few battpro modules
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) DC-DC (was BC-20 problem)
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Electric Boat
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Detroit Doubletalk
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric Boat
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electric Boat
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: GM hybrids: too little, too late, what for?
by "Richard Furniss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New AC motors and inverters (was newbie EV questions)
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) re: bc-20 problem
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV talk/lawn mowers
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: GM hybrids: too little, too late, what for?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
so a load of .1 ohms + bat r .1 = .2 r total / by 100v = 500 amps and
that's the load to get the max power out ?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Internal resistance
>
> On Sunday, January 19, 2003, at 01:25 AM, 1sclunn wrote:
>
> > so when you get into you car and see 130v then take off and pull a
> > steady
> > 100amps vloltage drops to 120 10/100 =.1 ohm ??
>
> I believe that's the basic idea, but you probably wouldn't want to do
> it right off the charger (130 volts on a 120v system), but rather would
> want to wait a bit so the resting voltage would be more stable.
>
> Seth
>
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 8:57 AM
> > Subject: Re: Battery Internal resistance
> >
> >
> >> hi all -
> >>
> >> I thought about this once and you can tell me I'm wrong, but here's
> >> how I'd go about it: assume that your battery is an ideal battery, ie
> >> no voltage sag under load. now also assume that your ideal battery is
> >> in series with a resistor of unknown value - the ideal battery plus
> >> resistor is your actual battery. Now measure your voltage across the
> >> whole thing with no load, then put say a 100 amp load on your battery
> >> and measure the voltage. Do this for a few different currents. now
> >> if
> >> you pretend that your ideal battery didn't loose any voltage under
> >> load, then the voltage drop for each current must have been in the
> >> resistor (the battery's internal resistance). now you have a current
> >> through and a voltage across this internal resistor, so resistance is
> >> easy to calculate using Ohm's law. Hope this helps,
> >>
> >> Seth
> >>
> >>
> >> On Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 08:35 AM, Gordon Niessen wrote:
> >>
> >>> How do you go about measuring the internal resistance of a battery?
> >>> I
> >>> don't think it's good to hook up you Ohm Meter across a battery. :-)
> >>> Or to short the battery and measure the max Amperage.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> >>
> >> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> >> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
>
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Upon return today, after 23 miles of driving the state of charge, I
immediatly checked the voltage of B6. It was very very low: 3.02 volts,
all the others around it were above 6 volts. So, it looks like B6 is going,
or is gone.
>
sound dead
the lead is dead he said
coming...). It is much easier to check these voltages when the car isn't
going anywhere!
>
you need to put a load on them as you did and check the voltage while
loaded.
> 3) Is there a benefit to a prolonged overcharge of the questionable
battery (B6) alone? I have an isolated 6 volt charger, and can "cook" B6
while adding water frequently.
>
> 4) There are about 175 cycles on this pack. Have I just paid my dues,
and need to buy a new pack; or can I try replacing B6 alone?
I think i'd get a new one as your pack sound like its still good for a while
.
Steve Clunn
>
> Joe
>
> "White Rabbit" `81 Rabbit Pickup
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/390.html
> Joe Miller KI7WV
> jmiller_at_eyes_dot_arizona_dot_edu
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Likely some here may have an interest in selling to the State of
California.
The specs for FY03 are here:
http://pdrox.pd.dgs.ca.gov/pin/html/1-03-23-22.htm
Enjoy.
--
____
__/o|__\~ ~ ~
`@ -----@`---(=
http://www.SoCalEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
Yes, I just got an offer 1K below asking price, and
then a follow from Joseph Keitel at yahoo.com, saying
he had an interested client. Because I find it
unusual that someone wants to pay 5K for a vehicle
sight unseen, my BS detector went off, too. Most EV
enthusiasts I've met are scraping up the funds to work
transportation and tax out, not purchasing sight
unseen. He did want to know the condition of the
vehicle, though. And I'm sensing an ethnic minority,
due to some spelling and syntax errors.
I fired back that I am firm on the price b/c I have
backup offers, (which I do, and besides, I want the
car to go to someone who is really enthusiastic about
EVs). We'll see if he's still interested, or if it
has something to do with oil investors, and war with
Iraq. Most interesting. I plan to put in a call to
my credit union to see if there are fraudulent money
orders...
Thanks for the info, Mark. Could you keep in touch
with me, and I'll share with you what I find out, but
not let him know that I'm communicating with you?
Sincerely,
<real EV enthusiast>
--- Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe Mark
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
> I am getting very scammish sounding emails from him.
> They might be perfectly legitamite i'm just
> wondering if anyone else got he message as I'm
> wondering if he made an offer on everything on the
> the trading post.
>
=====
Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html
____
/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are
you saving any gas for your kids?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the recepe' for water skiing behind an electric boat (batts, motor,
boat type)? I H2o ski behind a gasser but would like it to be electric but
can't figure out how to get more than a few minutes run time in electric
mode at 20mph pulling a skier.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Tango battery thermal management (was: Aquarium Chillers)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
>
> > feed it and keep it going.
> >
> > >A failed cell interconnect at high current might also do it.
> >
> > That is one cause for smoke and melt-down, but typically
doesn't
> > cause a fire.
> >
>
>
> When the molten interconnect melts though the bottom of the case, and
> onto the hull of a plastic and wood Hydroplane... Fire DOES result.
> It gets real entertaining to drive/coast at 60 miles an hour with
> burning things under your knees and Butt.
> I won a race once when some OTHER Boat had a fire and the rest of us
> all powered down to fight the fire.... I was the first to realise it was
> Not me!! I powered up faster than Father time and them got across the
> line first.
>
> Graphite Hulls DO conduct 144 VDC!!
>
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I designed them for Wilde Evolutions back in 96'. They are now
www.EVparts.com , give that a try. It's a transistor, zener with some
resistors and two leds that heat sinks into the positive battery terminal
when it shunts for cost effectiveness.
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: Re: needing a few battpro modules
> Hope you let us know all the details about your new born ,first steps ect.
> If you can't find a battpro I would think a Rudman reg would do . (from
the
> bats point of view )
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Doug Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 1:08 AM
> Subject: needing a few battpro modules
>
>
> Hi there. Just now putting together my first EV and I managed to "weld" a
> battery to the chassis at the side-mount terminals (YT). In a mad panic to
> get things unstuck quickly, I managed to destroy one of my BattPro battery
> protector modules. Battery seems to be ok for now, but the module was
> completely unrecoverable. I'm not sure where I can find any more of these,
> but I'd be very happy to find a seller...
> -Doug Martin
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After my detective work this weekend, I removed my DC-DC, as I knew
something was wrong there. I thought something else was going on, too, but
just removing the DC-DC seems to have fixed the problem.
I'll be contacting the manufacturer later today. Back to a total loss
system until this gets ironed out, I guess.
By the way, would anyone be interested in a digital photo of the DC-DC
innards? I really can't make heads or tails of it. I inspected it
visually, and nothing has obviously blown up or anything, but I can't go
beyond that. There was one resistor that looked a little dark, though.
I would really appreciate any advice. Thanks.
David Brandt
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2003-01-20 at 06:28, Mark Hanson wrote:
> What is the recepe' for water skiing behind an electric boat (batts, motor,
> boat type)? I H2o ski behind a gasser but would like it to be electric but
> can't figure out how to get more than a few minutes run time in electric
> mode at 20mph pulling a skier.
A couple minutes at 20 mph pulling a skier sounds pretty repectable.
I used to (barely) pull skiers behind a Zodiac with a 25 hp motor
running full out. That means the motor is producing roughly 20 hp or
about 15 kw of power. Figure in normal losses and you are talking at
least 18-20 kw from the battery pack.
1300 lbs of GC batteries could do this for about 20-30 minutes, but if
you put that much weight in a Zodiac it would sink.
You could use 10 Optima YTs, they could produce that much power for
maybe 10 minutes. That would weigh 450 lbs and would be pushing it, but
maybe if you had a small driver.
You could try some of the exotic batteries. 400 lbs worth of Lion
batteries would give you probably an hour, if you are lucky the pack
should only cost $20,000 to $30,000.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Detroit Doubletalk
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2003 15:16:24 -0800
I am working on a couple of articles for Home Power on EVs, hybrids, fool
cells, and alt fuels, and ran across this acronym that cracked me up:
PZEV, which stands for "partial zero emissions vehicle".
Partial zero? Is that like being a little bit pregnant?
It's only a partial solution to the problem. Why not call it a low
emissions vehicle? Because that makes too much sense.
But then again perhaps they think the sum of the parts is greater than the
whole. Sounds like they're telling me 2+2=5.
If it has emissions it's not a zero emissions vehicle. And here in Clark
County it must go through an annual smog check. Just my conjectural 8 cents
per kwh here, again. Regards, A.K. Howard, here in the neon desert. Board
Member Las Vegas EV Association.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rather then going 20mph, go 10-12mph and use bigger skies. :-)
At 07:28 AM 1/20/2003, you wrote:
What is the recepe' for water skiing behind an electric boat (batts, motor,
boat type)? I H2o ski behind a gasser but would like it to be electric but
can't figure out how to get more than a few minutes run time in electric
mode at 20mph pulling a skier.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Tango battery thermal management (was: Aquarium Chillers)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
>
> > feed it and keep it going.
> >
> > >A failed cell interconnect at high current might also do it.
> >
> > That is one cause for smoke and melt-down, but typically
doesn't
> > cause a fire.
> >
>
>
> When the molten interconnect melts though the bottom of the case, and
> onto the hull of a plastic and wood Hydroplane... Fire DOES result.
> It gets real entertaining to drive/coast at 60 miles an hour with
> burning things under your knees and Butt.
> I won a race once when some OTHER Boat had a fire and the rest of us
> all powered down to fight the fire.... I was the first to realise it was
> Not me!! I powered up faster than Father time and them got across the
> line first.
>
> Graphite Hulls DO conduct 144 VDC!!
>
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark and All,
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What is the recepe' for water skiing behind an
> electric boat (batts, motor,
> boat type)? I H2o ski behind a gasser but would like
> it to be electric but
> can't figure out how to get more than a few minutes
> run time in electric
> mode at 20mph pulling a skier.
First you start with a cat or a tri designed for
low energy, about 1/3 of a planning type, then use a
small surfboard, wide single ski, to do the skiing to
cut it's drag.
A tri with a beam/lenght ratio of 8 or 9/1 about
16-24' and some small pontoons for balance would hold
the batts and be low enough drag to do what you need
for 30min/1 hr.
Alternative could be a Hobie18 or like cat with
an E-outboard for testing. They are very cheap on the
used market.
Under sail they easily pull skiers. I've seen
pics of 4 skiers behind 1 in 25kt winds.
jerry dycus
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--- Begin Message ---
The big three have been playing with hybrids for a few years now and it
sounds like a logical solution to make a temporary step to hybrid before
fuel cells are ready, that way they can push back fuel cells a few years, in
fact I predict that the US automakers will release the first fuel cells
vehicles to the public about seven years after the Japanese, but only after
much complaining that the retail consumers aren't ready for it.
My hope is that one of the hybrids will lend itself to be easily
converted to a plug-in hybrid, something like a 4WD pick-up converted back
to 2WD and a AC induction motor hanging on the front axel and have enough
frame to hold 30 to 40 miles of lead.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 11:25 PM
Subject: GM hybrids: too little, too late, what for?
> The Japanese have shown a viable hybrid design the industry
> can use as a starting point. While we all would want
> automakers offer a plug-in hybrids, the climate for
> US automakers to make anything that does not run off fuel
> is bad and is not going to happen.
>
> So, lets focus on what USA automakers have said they will
> do. Lets read an excerpt from an AP release:
>
> http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/business/1726492
> -
> GM will offer hybrid options on several vehicles, starting
> later this year with the GMC Sierra and Chevrolet Silverado
> pickups for use in commercial fleets. The hybrid versions of
> the trucks will increase fuel economy by 10 to 12 percent,
> the company says.
>
> Those same trucks will be available to retail consumers in
> 2004. If demand is high for all hybrid models, GM says it
> could produce a million or more a year by 2007. GM sold
> nearly 4.8 million vehicles in 2002.
>
> "We're taking a very pragmatic approach, targeting a wide
> array of popular models with varying degrees of complexity
> to give consumers a variety of choice," said GM president
> and chief executive Rick Wagoner.
>
> In 2005, GM will begin producing a hybrid Saturn VUE sport
> utility. It will also include a hybrid option on its
> forthcoming Chevy Equinox SUV in 2006 and its Chevy Malibu
> sedan in 2007.
> -
>
>
> Japan has hybrids now, but GM is talking 2007. That's five
> years the public has to wait for all this talk. This
> smacks of another token effort to clean up their act.
>
> Lets say the majority of new vehicle designs were hybrid and
> were at best 15% better mpg. Since only the best selling
> SUVs are targeted, a 14 mph SUV with a 15% increase in
> mileage is 16 mpg.
>
> That is not much improvement in mileage nor improvement in
> air pollution reduction.
>
> So US automakers are making SUV hybrids that will make
> little mpg improvement, the public will have to wait to see
> if automaker don't about-face on hybrids, and for what?
>
> What will be happening while the hybrids are being
> 'developed'?
>
> Continue to profit from current ICE designs:
> business as usual.
>
>
> Watt do you think of the US automaker's announced efforts to
> clean up their act with 'fat-free fat' hybrid SUVs?
>
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________________________
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www.lasvegasev.com
Richard Furniss
Las Vegas, NV
1986 Mazda EX-7 192v
1981 Lectra Centauri 108v
3 Wheel Trail Master 12v
Board Member, www.lveva.org
Las Vegas Electric Vehicle Association
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert something like a Ford F250
truck to an EV, and still be able to use it as a truck.
I have occasional need for a pickup truck (and no, renting one isn't
possible). The big problem is that one of the things I need to use the
truck for is to pull my equipment trailer. (Take the tractor to the shop,
move a car, etc..) This is a 3 axle trailer that is about 4000 lbs
empty. Tractor adds another 6000 lbs of load.
Would it be possible to have a conversion truck that could:
A) Have a 40-50 mile range WITHOUT the trailer.
B) Have a 10-20 mile range WITH the trailer?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> so does this mean that the 1000 amp Emeter is now seeing not 50mV but
> 100mV from the shunt at full current?
Yes; that is correct. 50mv at 500a; 100mv at 1000a.
> If I were to use a 1000 amp, 50mV shunt, my amp readings would be
> off by a factor of 2?
Yes; right again.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
Also, newer inverters (Simotion) are available too.
Smaller, smarter software, about the same power. These don't
have integrated DC-DC though. I'll update web site soon,
just heads up.
Interesting stuff you are looking at Victor. Anyway, this one part
brought one thought into my head. Why, other than smaller, would a
person want the newer "Simotion" inverter? Especially if the price is
expected to be slightly higher.
That stout built in DC>DC is one of the high points of your current
offerings (its not easy to find 50 amps or more of DC>DC at a
reasonable price).
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The DC-DC, when connected manually, just clicks a lot instead of making the
slight PWM whine it used to, so it looks like that is busted, but there is
no evidence of anything losing its smoke. So aside from the obvious problem
with the DC-DC, what is going on with this 8-9V difference in the
controller? Everything was just fine, and I don't know of anything that has
changed.
I'd let the 12v battery decide if the DC>DC is busted. Without a 12v
battery or any load on its output some types don't keep PWMing. If
hooking the DC>DC normally and supplying it pack power you should see
the voltage of the 12v battery climb above 13.2v.
As far as your ground fault, it sounds like your motor is providing
the fault, provided it was still connected to the controller or pack
negative during the tests. It could have collected enuf brush dust to
provide a small ground leak. If you use a non-isolated charger then
you either need 2 main contactors (pack positive and negative) or you
have to keep things very clean. If things where a little wet to start
with then it makes a ground fault even easier. GFIs trip somewhere
between 4 and 6ma, looks like your charger has the more sensitive one.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert something like a Ford F250
> truck to an EV, and still be able to use it as a truck.
> I have occasional need for a pickup truck (and no, renting one isn't
> possible). The big problem is that one of the things I need to use the
> truck for is to pull my equipment trailer. (Take the tractor to the shop,
> move a car, etc..) This is a 3 axle trailer that is about 4000 lbs
> empty. Tractor adds another 6000 lbs of load.
>
> Would it be possible to have a conversion truck that could:
> A) Have a 40-50 mile range WITHOUT the trailer.
> B) Have a 10-20 mile range WITH the trailer?
Short answer = yes, and then some.
Check out the EVDL Photo Album under Toyota's, look for the Red Beasty.
John Wayland helped build this truck and owned it for a while. It has
2400 lbs of batteries on board and had a range (without trailer) of 100+
miles. He used to pull a double axle(?) trailer to the drag races with
his EV racer and a small EV tractor on board. I don't think the
trailer+cargo weighed 10,000 lbs (probably closer to 6,000), but he used
to pull it at highway speeds for 40+ miles.
Doing the same thing on an F250 would eat up about 1/2 it's Payload
capacity. Plus the F250 is about twice as heavy as the small Toyota, so
you will need a bigger motor and controller.
I believe he used a single 9" ADC. In your case you might want to use
two ADCs and maybe Otmar's new 500+hp controller ;-).
Seems to me the main problem might be stopping it, total weight is going
to be over 17,000 lbs. Still that is within the total combined rating
for this truck
P.S. isn't 10,000 lbs way over the rated tow limit for an F250?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like the 6000lb trailer would be a bit over rated tow load for a Toyota.
I wouldn't mind a smaller truck, but the tounge weight of my trailer is
probably 1000 lbs. Last I knew, a Toyotas entire load capacity was around
1500 lbs, and once you subtract battery weight from that....
One reason I was thinking of something like an F250 was it's high load
capacity, which even after 1500 lbs of batteries would be around 1500 lbs.
2003 F250 (current year is easy to find specs for!)
Curb Weight: 5420
GVWR: 8800
Towing Max: 12,500
Payload Base Capacity: 3380
What about using one of Victors AC Drives?
How many volts could be had with 2000 lbs of 6V floodeds?
At 10:52 AM 1/20/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal stated:
Short answer = yes, and then some.
Check out the EVDL Photo Album under Toyota's, look for the Red Beasty.
John Wayland helped build this truck and owned it for a while. It has
2400 lbs of batteries on board and had a range (without trailer) of 100+
miles. He used to pull a double axle(?) trailer to the drag races with
his EV racer and a small EV tractor on board. I don't think the
trailer+cargo weighed 10,000 lbs (probably closer to 6,000), but he used
to pull it at highway speeds for 40+ miles.
Doing the same thing on an F250 would eat up about 1/2 it's Payload
capacity. Plus the F250 is about twice as heavy as the small Toyota, so
you will need a bigger motor and controller.
I believe he used a single 9" ADC. In your case you might want to use
two ADCs and maybe Otmar's new 500+hp controller ;-).
Seems to me the main problem might be stopping it, total weight is going
to be over 17,000 lbs. Still that is within the total combined rating
for this truck
P.S. isn't 10,000 lbs way over the rated tow limit for an F250?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland sold me the 6.7" ADC that I am using on my motorcycle for $125.
He has more. They are listed on the tradin post.
But, why not just use one of the commercially available electrics? I have
been using my B&D M1000 for about 3 years now. It's got a bit smaller
mowing deck then most. It also has limited "range", like all things EV, but
with your experience you could easily change that. It is setup as a 24V
system. I'm sure you could either beef up the battery pack or setup a dump
charge system for quick recharges. With a beefy enough DC to DC converter
you could get pretty quick charges off your traction pack, then let your EV
recharge while you work.
damon
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: EV talk/lawn mowers
Date: Mon, 20 Jan 2003 02:21:01 -0800
I have though about it quite a bit
I could fast charge it from my truck pack . I only need it to run 15/30
min per hour . I can plug my truck into 30% of my customers dryers outlets
.
I have even considered using a ADC 6.7 motor that was for sale but now gone
. that and 3 yellow tops . I'll be replacing a 18 hp gas burner . 7kw ??
200 amp draw on the 3 YT this is off the top of my head . another way of
looking at it is I use a gallon/10 yards/3 hours = 3 yt charged 3 times or
500 lbs of lead .
now 36 v may not be enough to drive a adc 6.7
is there a number of KW hours that = gallon of gas ?
The reasons that I don't all sound like the reason that people have for not
converting there cars to electric or having somebody do it for them.
1 I don't have time .
2 I don't have money (for that!)
3 I can't afford to have something brake
4 it will be slower that what I have
5 I won't be doing this much longer.
I always think about this when talking to people that tell me "that's not
for me" . I'm just lucky that I can . The lawn mower would be a lot more
work that converting a gas car and the car would be a lot more fun. A EV
car
would also do much more toward the EV/clean air/ect were the lawn mower
would not. Every EV conversion on the road shows people what can be done
now
.
just like them
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 19, 2003 7:34 AM
Subject: Re: EV talk
> That's great, but why don't you also have an electric lawm mower ?
> You could always carry an extra battery pack for the mower or even an
> extra charger or recharge atleast once from the vehicle if its an
> emergency.
>
> On Sun, 19 Jan 2003 09:27:50 -0800 "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > My ford ranger has 3 bats in the front . When I'm gassing up the
> > lawn mower
> > which is on a trailer behind the truck and a crowd gathers round to
> > look
> > under the hood . I give my little EV speech and I if don't point out
> > the
> > bats under the bed of the truck somebody will always ask "and it
> > runs on
> > just 3 batteries?" This really is not to hard to understand as they
> > are
> > looking at something they've been told can't work in the first place
> > . There
> > minds are being opened and the brains just slip right out.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 10:29 PM
> > Subject: Re: EV talk
> >
> >
> > > On 17 Jan 2003 at 16:44, jon wrote:
> > >
> > > > "How many D cells does it take?"
> > >
> > > When I had my Comuta-Car, I bought two 4-cell plastic flashlight
> > cell
> > > holders from an electronic parts store. I wired them to a hunk of
> > zip
> > cord,
> > > filled 'em up, tied the free end of the zip cord to something
> > under the
> > dash
> > > of the car, and chucked them on the shelf under the dash (the one
> > that
> > used
> > > to hold a charger in the old Citicars).
> > >
> > > When someone asked the inevitable question, "Does it ^really^ run
> > on
> > > batteries?" I'd pull out the battery holders and show him. Some
> > folks
> > > actually believed me. It's amazing how poor science education is
> > these
> > > days.
> > >
> > >
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > = =
> > > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
> > vacation, or
> > > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > = =
> > > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > = =
> > > Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
> > to all
> > > thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite
> > thee.
> > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > = =
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert something like a
> Ford F250 truck to an EV, and still be able to use it as a truck.
> I have occasional need for a pickup truck (and no, renting one isn't
> possible).
The Home Depot stores around here all rent flatbed trucks fairly cheaply
(if you are talking about hours, not days). There is also Ryder for
longer term rentals.
> Would it be possible to have a conversion truck that could:
> A) Have a 40-50 mile range WITHOUT the trailer.
> B) Have a 10-20 mile range WITH the trailer?
Certainly. The bigger the truck, the higher its payload capacity as a
fraction of its total weight. Since range is basically defined by the
percent of the total weight that is batteries, you can easily get a 50
mile range with a truckload of batteries. The Red Beastie did over 100
miles on a charge with its full capacity in batteries.
Pulling a trailer slows accelleration and braking, but doesn't take much
away from the truck's weight-carrying capacity. So, you can have most of
the payload capacity in batteries.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:33 PM 1/20/2003 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
John Lussmyer wrote:
> I'm wondering if it would be possible to convert something like a
> Ford F250 truck to an EV, and still be able to use it as a truck.
> I have occasional need for a pickup truck (and no, renting one isn't
> possible).
The Home Depot stores around here all rent flatbed trucks fairly cheaply
(if you are talking about hours, not days). There is also Ryder for
longer term rentals.
They don't rent them for trailer pulling at all. No way, no how.
Also driving 40 miles (north) to a truck rental place, so that you can go
pick up a load 10 miles (south) from home seems kind of wasteful and really
time consuming.
It's also difficult picking up a rental at 3PM on Sunday for a 2 hour job.
Pulling a trailer slows accelleration and braking, but doesn't take much
away from the truck's weight-carrying capacity. So, you can have most of
the payload capacity in batteries.
Wouldn't the trailer and load add a bunch of aerodynamic drag?
Also, a 1000lb tongue weight is a significant payload consideration.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent points on the refineries.
Great comments.
Don't forgot those nasty tanker spills.
Danny...
Electro Automotive wrote:
>
> We EV people need to do a better job of educating our own. The EV
> participation in the SF anti-war rally made Rob Morse's column in the
> Chron. HOWEVER, he quoted a VW Bug conversion driver from Albany, David
> Arkin, as saying that "...it's not quite correct to call it a no-emissions
> vehicle if it's running off the grid. It's an elsewhere emissions vehicle."
>
> Arrrrrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Do gas car emissions measurements include emissions from refineries, or
> from gas tanker trucks? NO! And an editorial in the Jan. 10th Chron noted
> that pollution from refinery flares is much worse than previously thought,
> and confirmed "the refineries' status as major sources of the area's air
> pollution".
>
> How can we expect fair treatment from the media and public, when our OWN
> keep spreading this stuff?
>
> (Pant, pant)
>
> Ok, I feel a little calmer now.
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just another thought: U.S. Body Source in Florida (disclaimer, no
connection to the company) has body parts for full size trucks. They
claim a full size Chevy can lose 1500 lbs with their body parts.
Hmmm, an intriguing notion. 5500 truck, 1500 payload, plus lose 1500
lbs of weight in body panels, plus pull ~750 lbs of ICE stuff, gain
maybe 600 lbs of electrical stuff... (1500+1500+750-600)/5500 = 57%
weight in batteries, within GVWR!
Of course, something this big is going to need two motors, and two
controllers. It's also going to take a long time to charge 3750 lbs
of lead!
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:09 PM 1/18/03 -0800, you wrote:
Sounds like I need to be educated, too. I think that a sustantial
fraction of electricity consumed in the US is generated by burning
fossil fuels which produces greenhouse gasses and other pollutants.
Our electric utilities and producers have fleets of motor vehicles used
for mainenance, repair, construction, meter reading, etc. Manufacture
of generation and distribution equipment, construction of dams, power
plants, etc. all contribute to pollution and greenhouse gasses.
See Chip Gribben's excellent paper at
http://www.princeton.edu/~bcjones/transportation/ev/myths.html
I agree that manufacturing equipment has its own pollution issues. So does
manufacturing solar panels. But "automotive emissions", in terms of ICE
cars, refers to ONLY the emissions produced by the vehicle itself, so it
should be done comparably for EVs.
Comparing power plant emissions to refinery emissions is another issue. A
Jan. 10 editorial in the SF Chron. pointed out that refineries are one of
the major factors in Bay Area air pollution.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> [snip] Watt do you think of the US automaker's announced efforts to
> clean up their act with 'fat-free fat' hybrid SUVs?
Since the public position of all the US auto companies is that EVs don't
sell and won't work, they aren't likely to build any hybrids that have
any significant EV capabilities.
But if "hybrid" turns out to be a marketable word (i.e. they can sell a
car for more if they call it a "hybrid", then they will build "hybrids".
However, they are likely to be extremely mild hybrids, with negligible
EV capability.
In the eyes of marketing, a completely ordinary car becomes a "hybrid"
if they simply allow the starter motor to be engaged while the car is in
gear, and add idle-stop to the engine computer.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A ton of 6 volts.... maybe about 166 vdc worth (with T-145 batteries @ 72
pounds) to 193 (with T-105's @ 62 pounds).
However, this sounds like something that might be a good test of the
homebrew pickup hybrid..... Get a 4wd with small ICE - leave it connected up
front, and yank the driveshaft and pop a nice high RPM ac motor into the
differential on the back. Drive electric when you can with the ice in
neutral, drive gas (and charge your pack with regen) for longer trips, and
use both when hauling your trailer and the little motor can't do it all. You
would not need as much battery either, since you would have other options
for longer range when necessary.
KC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 20, 2003 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: Truck (im)possibility
> Sounds like the 6000lb trailer would be a bit over rated tow load for a
Toyota.
> I wouldn't mind a smaller truck, but the tounge weight of my trailer is
> probably 1000 lbs. Last I knew, a Toyotas entire load capacity was around
> 1500 lbs, and once you subtract battery weight from that....
> One reason I was thinking of something like an F250 was it's high load
> capacity, which even after 1500 lbs of batteries would be around 1500 lbs.
>
> 2003 F250 (current year is easy to find specs for!)
> Curb Weight: 5420
> GVWR: 8800
> Towing Max: 12,500
> Payload Base Capacity: 3380
>
> What about using one of Victors AC Drives?
> How many volts could be had with 2000 lbs of 6V floodeds?
>
> At 10:52 AM 1/20/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal stated:
> >Short answer = yes, and then some.
> >
> >Check out the EVDL Photo Album under Toyota's, look for the Red Beasty.
> >John Wayland helped build this truck and owned it for a while. It has
> >2400 lbs of batteries on board and had a range (without trailer) of 100+
> >miles. He used to pull a double axle(?) trailer to the drag races with
> >his EV racer and a small EV tractor on board. I don't think the
> >trailer+cargo weighed 10,000 lbs (probably closer to 6,000), but he used
> >to pull it at highway speeds for 40+ miles.
> >
> >Doing the same thing on an F250 would eat up about 1/2 it's Payload
> >capacity. Plus the F250 is about twice as heavy as the small Toyota, so
> >you will need a bigger motor and controller.
> >
> >I believe he used a single 9" ADC. In your case you might want to use
> >two ADCs and maybe Otmar's new 500+hp controller ;-).
> >
> >Seems to me the main problem might be stopping it, total weight is going
> >to be over 17,000 lbs. Still that is within the total combined rating
> >for this truck
> >
> >P.S. isn't 10,000 lbs way over the rated tow limit for an F250?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
>
>
--- End Message ---
