EV Digest 2551
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: ZAP L.U.V. cost
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: ER1 driver loves BEVs. Maybe the ZAP electric is for real.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Clean Renewable Electricity
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EVLN(ZAP car: 240 miles on a single charge at 70 mph)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: ZAP cars.
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) KWH Meters
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Requesting NiZn Summary
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) VC-EAA Meeting 1/25/03 10am in Ojai CA
by "Bruce Tucker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday, 1/25/03 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: KWH Meters
by "Tom Hudson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
5250 bucks. A little low. Lawrence Rhodes......It would be my next pack if
so.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: ZAP L.U.V. cost
> At 04:24 PM 1/21/2003 -0600, Sam Uzi wrote:
> >on this site (techTV's best product choices from the recent CES)
> >
> >http://www.techtv.com/news/ces2003/story/0,24195,3413910,00.html
> >
> >they list the ZAP Light Utility Vehicle (the freeway-capable,
> >not-yet-available, 240 miles @ 70mph vehicle) as having a cost of
> >$25,000... maybe they aren't getting that sweet deal on the batteries,
> >after all
>
> I was just chatting with a friend about the ZAP. He'd been talking to a
> salesman(?) about it. Supposedly was told that their are 15 batteries,
and
> each costs $350.
> Wonder how much BS was flowing?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> On 20 Jan 2003 at 13:09, Steve wrote:
>
> > implying that ZEVs are truly
> > effectively emissionless vehicles when powered by the current
electrical
> > infrastructure can also amount to misinformation if it
implies that this
> > pollution would just go away if we all drove them instead.
>
> As I understand it, assuming they're charged at night, it's
going to be a
> LONG time before charging EVs has any measureable effect on the
emissions of
> power plants. They use idle capacity and thus actually
^improve^ the
> plants' efficiency. When it comes to emissions, EVs are as
close to true
> zero as you can get (except for a bicycle).
And how about EVs capability to use electricity generated in any
way, the best being from renewable energy resources. It seems to
be such a natural... This is what finally brought me over the
edge into wanting to be involved with EVs.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This is a snippet from EV world. It makes me believe ZAP isn't
lying.
> Lawrence Rhodes....
>
> "I love those thins (BEVs)," he said. "We can get excellent
range with our
> battery cells." He confided that he and his partner L.G. Chem
in Korea are
> developing some very promising new cells. We asked him to
speculate on what
> kind of range might be possible in a small, family sedan like
the Honda EV
> Plus or the ATT R and D Parade. He responded that he had little
doubt that
> the new batteries currently being tested could give a Civic or
Corolla-class
> vehicle a range of between 250-300 miles.
>
> Rivers estimates that because LG Chem is using lower cost
materials than is
> used in cellphone batteries, he believes that in mass
production Compact
> Power batteries could cost between $150 to $200 per kilowatt
hour. A single
> kilowatt is roughly equivalent to about 3 miles range in a
modern EV. The
^^^^^^
> more kilowatt hours available on the vehicle, the further it
can travel.
Man, I can't believe how loose people are with energy and power.
His sentence has no meaning, but, yeah, we all know that instead
of power, he really meant the energy needed to go the 3 miles.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And you can go around the circle one more time by using solar or
other renewables to produce those solar cells. But, wind gennys
kill birds, or so the rap goes. The bottom line is use the
cleanest energy source you can, and at the same time minimize the
energy you use to carry on your life. I strongly suspect that we
could make major fractional changes in this country's emissions
output if we got past the circles and proceeded to get on with
making changes to how we produce and use energy. Wasn't there
some saying at NASA about studying things to death, but never
creating a space mission? I haven't seen much progression in the
last couple of decades in this country towards using renewables.
Dribs and drabs. It's still mostly fossil fuel. It's 2003
folks, and the clock is ticking... (I'm not directing that so
much at the people on this List, but it's more an expression of
how I feel about what has gone on in this country over the last
decade or two since I've been into this scene.)
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Dodrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 4:02 PM
Subject: RE: With Friends Like These. . .
> Part of the problem is that it is difficult to come to a common
agreement
> on what a "zero emisson source" is. Do you consider the way
that the source
> was created in this determination? For example, if the solar
cell manufacturing
> plant uses electricity that comes from a coal-fired plant, can
the factory
> produce zero emission source products? Soon, it becomes a
ridiculous circle.
>
> Perhaps a better way is to strive for a minimal emission
source...
>
> Mark
>
> >-- Original Message --
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >From: "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: RE: With Friends Like These. . .
> >Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:12:02 -0800
> >
> >
> >
> >Good point. I agree that driving EVs could effectively be a
truely zero
> >emission experience *if* those EVs were charged from only zero
emission
> >sources.
> >
> >Anyone have any data on how likely that could be? Is there
any
> >consideration by the utilities for cleaning the generation of
electricity
> >during off peak times? It seems one would probably have to
take
> >photovoltaics out of the equation for generation of power in
the evening
> >but
> >that most other means could be factored in.
> >
> >It would be nice to have some hard figures that we could use
in the
> >"elsewhere emission" debates although I admit it would be hard
to predict
> >them accurately.
> >
> >Steve
> >
> >> Not saying this is how things are done, but there is enough
excess
> >> capacity at night that you could pick the cleanest plant(s)
to make
> >> your electricity. During the day the system is often nearly
maxed out
> >> (witness California), so you can't really pick just the
cleanest
> >> power plants, you have to take what is available, dirty or
not.
> >>
> >> --- Steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> > Doesn't Idle Capacity just refer to the *capability* of a
plant to
> >> > generate
> >> > power during otherwise idle times? It's my understanding
that
> >> > there is
> >> > indeed enough unused capacity during the evenings to
charge a great
> >> > many EVs
> >> > without requiring upgrades to the infrastructure.
However, as far
> >> > as
> >> > emissions goes, it's not as if the plant produces the same
> >> > pollution whether
> >> > it's employing that unused capacity or not, right? That
is, won't
> >> > charging
> >> > EVs, even in the evening, still require the utilities to
produce
> >> > the
> >> > additional emissions that come from generating the power
the EVs
> >> > require to
> >> > charge?
> >>
> >>
> >> =====
> >>
> >>
> >> __________________________________________________
> >> Do you Yahoo!?
> >> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> >> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >>
> >
>
> Mark Dodrill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> As of regen just being "nice" I see more benefit of it in
recharging
> than braking. Especially for heavy vehicle consuming lots of
Wh,
> everything you can get back "for free" is not just a nice bonus
but
> might be a matter or making it to the destination or not...
I would love to have regen when I think about going over the hill
to Stinson Beach, about 20 miles one way from my home-on-the-hill
in Larkspur. The top of the BIG hill is probably about 800-1000
feet up from the sea-level realm of Mill Valley. The descent
back down to sea-level at Muir Beach does a wonderful job of
heating my brakes. I'm not so worried about the safety issue
anymore, since I have vented rotors and steel pads, but I'm sure
the wear rate is high. There are two other hills/ridges on the
way to Stinson Beach: a 300-400 footer between Larkspur and Mill
Valley, and then a several hundred foot rise with several ups and
downs between Muir Beach and Stinson along the Pacific coast.
Whew!, by the time I get to Stinson, I'll bet my pack is about
half way or more down, depending on how balanced and cycled-in it
is. If I don't have reliable charging in Stinson (say, better
than charging at a friend's house off a measly 120V/15A circuit
that may or may not work), it might be a very long trip back,
especially since there is no charging infrastructure to speak of
in either Mill Valley or Larkspur. Bottom of the hill back to my
apt, and I'm dead, which is hard on the pack. No good! This
trip gets ICE'd. If I had good regen, this trip might just be
do-able in comfort :-). Of course, a dab of charging
infrastructure, like 1% of the ubiquitous gas stations, would
certainly help to take the white off the top of my knuckles on
the steering wheel.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have to disagree that emissions generated by power plants and
refineries
> are irrelevant in a fair comparison of the pollution caused by
ICEs and EVs
> since EVs require a much more refined source of energy than
ICEs.
Depending on how you take this, I would disagree with this
paragraph (...EVs require a much more refined source of energy
than ICEs). Seems like electricity is rather elemental and can
be created many different ways. That flexibility and multitude
of sources was one of the big draws for me towards EVs. Gasoline
and diesel can only be refined from crude oil, and a complicated
process it is.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> I have to ask this question since I am going no where
> in my search. How do I switch my electricity from
> PG&E to some renewable sources? I am in SF Bay Area.
I don't think you can. Last I checked, I, as a typical customer
in the SF Bay Area, could not sign up for a energy provider other
than PG&E. I was with GMER (Green Mountain) for my energy
provider starting about 1997, whilst PG&E was retained for
reading the meter, etc. All of us "unbundled" customers got
rebundled back to PG&E-only service about a year ago at the end
of the energy "crisis". Just enjoy the 10% of the CA power mix
that is renewables - that's all you can do. What a joke that
whole scene was...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed Thorpe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Ed,
>
> Running the numbers:
> 240 miles @ 100wpm (extremely efficient, like an EV1) at 70mph
> 24kwh pack is required - which is doable
What does wpm mean - watts/mile, or do you mean watt-hours/mile
(wh/mi), ie. energy/mile? I doubt even the EV1 was this
efficient downstream of the battery pack - too heavy. 150 wh/mi
probably more like it, or maybe 200wh/mi.
>
> most production EVs, like Honda EV+ and Toyota RAV4 EV, have
about 30kwh
> packs
> most production EVs, like Honda EV+ and Toyota RAV4 EV, get
maybe 250-300wpm
> driving
> so most production EVs, like Honda EV+ and Toyota RAV4 EV, have
a range 100
> miles (30,000wh/300wpm).
> these example EVs use NiMH batteries, which don't have quite as
high an
> energy density as LiIon batteries.
>
> So, by having a smaller and lighter pack (24kwh vs 30kwh -
450lb vs
> 800-900lb of batteries).
> The LiIon pack, if made of TS-LP8581A 100ah cells, requires
about 68 cells
> (= 17 14v batteries if based on nominal voltage of 3.5v per
cell) at 6.6lb
> each.
> The NiMH packs are based on the production EVs. Honda had
24*90ah*12v =
> 26kwh nominal pack. Toyota has 24*99ah*12v = 28.5kwh nominal
pack.
>
> The challenge is getting a vehicle refined and streamlined to
provide 100wpm
> efficiency at freeway speed. From the news reports from the LV
convention,
> the promo was being implied to a NEV driving around the
exhibits. Still find
> efficient energy usage is a major challenge. I don't know the
real numbers
> with the EV1, but Sparrows can average 150wpm for a small
one-person EV at
> freeway speed, once you get up to that speed.
>
> This all looks doable on paper. The challege will be how they
put this into
> production. Especially with the batteries come down in pricing.
Currently,
> if 10 cars were built, the pack would cost (at pricing from
Thunder-Sky)
> would be $9,200. For 150 vehicles, the pack price comes down to
$7,000.
> Still Zap would need to have a better quantity break to reduce
the price
> down to $5,000 or less to make a viable margin for vehicle
production (some
> room for the other componients, electronics and profit).
Ok, so sounds like maybe they might have a small vehicle (if one
would want to drive such a thing on the Grapevine and down I-5)
that could do this trip, ie. LA to SF in 3.5 hours. However,
didn't I also hear something like that upon arriving in SF, the
driver could stop for lunch for one hour while he (fully)
recharged? That's the show stopper for me. Where is our driver
going to find a 24kW outlet on Embarcadero Plaza in SF at the
drop of a hat? Lemme know, because that's going on my chargin'
map! That's one of the problems I see in the EV game, is they
build a fantastic vehicle, but where are you going to "refuel"
it? It's like charging infrastructure is almost an afterthought,
but to me it's one of the most important pieces of the game. My
super-efficient ZAP vehicle, EV1, Yellow Banana, or whatever, is
better than dead if I'm standing by the side of the road with a
cord or adapter looking for some juice. You don't run hundreds
of miles on 120V outlets.
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:45 AM 1/22/2003, you wrote:
http://www.zapworld.com/new-cars.htm
While two of the cars show as "available now", I don't see them listed for
sale on the Zap World web site.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
>
> Yes, I use a 500 amp meter on a 2000 amp controller. I use a 3:1 resistive
> divider to scale the voltage down to where the meter can read the current
> properly. I never keep the throttle down for more than 20 seconds and have
> not had an overheating problem with the shunt. I record the data on a
> computer and multiply by the resistor ratio to calculate the true current
> before plotting.
>
> Yes, this is the display limit. If you use a 2:1 voltage divider, the 500
> amp meter will read 500 amps at 1000 battery amps. You will need to multiply
> by 2 to get the true reading.
>
> Yes, the shunts are the same scaling. 50 mV at 500 amps is .0001 ohms. The
> same as a 100 mV at 1000 amp shunt.
>
Lets also remeber that there ARE 1000 amp e-meters and KwHr meters out
there. I have 2 1000 amp Emeters, that go to 1022 amps... Been there.
My meters have all read and displayed 800 to 1000 amps . These are not
available anymore as I recall. They bit the Dust when Cruising became
Xantrex.
The KwHr meter that I got from Cruising.... they handed me a ROM and
some .01% resistors, and showed me to the soldering Iron. That was many
years ago when Steve Kahle and I did many circuit board turns a year.
Ah those were the days....
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two questions, does anyone know if Brusa's (and therefore
Solectria's) KWH meters have RS-232 serial output? If not, are there
any other reasonably priced meters that do (besides the Link10).
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, Joe, Sheer:
Any chance you could summarize what your findings are in NiZn? I have laboriously
tried to search past posts but only have an
incomplete picture.
Joe: I'd be most interested in hearing a description of your charge and discharge rig
for the Evercel you are beating to death. I
saw somewhere you are discharigning at 48 amps down to a certain voltage. Is it
really constant amperage or is it a fixed
resistor? What is the charge current and termination algorithm you are using? I've
seen your plotted data on the manzanitamicro
site and wonder what the temperature profile looks like? Are you temperature limited
on when you can start the charge?
Rich: What's the status of the PFC chargers to handle a NiZn algorithm? I understand
they will eventually get a "brain" and have
knobs and DIP's to twiddle in the meantime...
Sheer: You had some interesting stuff a while back on voltage sag and temperature
which I can't seem to find. What's the driving
like? How many cycles do you have? How's the capacity held up?
I visited the company last week and was impressed with the candor and the quality of
the folks I met. They have apparently
handbuilt a number of MB's in the lab in China and cycled these to their satisfaction.
Now they are doing a run on their
production line and once they are happy with these, they expect to begin volume
production and shipment at the end of March time
frame. The company looks to me as if they will be around for the long pull: they
have $8mm of cash on the balance sheet, even
after buying 100% of the Chinese venture. I remain keenly interested in getting a set
for my VW Cabrio.
Thanks,
Fred
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:31 AM 1/22/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
On Tue, 2003-01-21 at 18:16, John Lussmyer wrote:
> At 05:09 PM 1/21/2003 -0800, Paul G stated:
> >Buying a used electric Bus might be a way to get a deal on high power
> >drivetrain (either AC or DC).
>
> One question on that, aren't the motors in Electric Busses kinda HUGE and
> HEAVY?
>
And your point?
Victors WS14 weighs over 200lbs. Two 9" ADCs will weigh almost 300lbs.
A V8 weighs, what 600lbs?
Heavy vehicles need heavy motors.
Hmm, last time I talked to the electric bus guy, he was talking 1000 lbs+
for the motor. Of course that may have been a VERY old motor.
Hopefully the newer ones are lighter.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:28 AM 1/22/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
78 Kw is simply not enough power to accelerate this much vehicle very
quickly and it can't handle accelerating up more than the gentlest of
slopes.
Victors system is nice, for the right vehicle. This isn't the right
vehicle.
I think we need to define "accelerate up a slope".
Last time I checked, a loaded dumptruck creeps up a 6% grade at a low
speed. Since all the steep hills around here are relatively short, I don't
see a problem with not being able to hit 50MPH while going up hill.
Are you saying it won't drag a 16,000 lb vehicle up a hill at all? Or that
it can't do 50mph? Or that it can't do 10mph?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:28 AM 1/22/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
For the same price(or less) you can get a double 9" DC setup with a 1200
amp Raptor controller. Continuous rated power will be roughly the same
(dual 9" has a slight edge) but Max power is almost twice what Victor's
can do, over three times his continuous rated power. Only down side is
no regen.
Still a marginal solution, but at least it can climb hills (for a short
time).
What about the heat problem? Yes it has the power to climb hills, but can
it keep it up for the 5 minutes to go up a long not-so-steep hill? Will it
still be able to cruise at 60mph after the hill? Or would it need to stay
slow for a while so the motor(s) could cool back down?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> I would love to have regen when I think about going over the hill
> to Stinson Beach, about 20 miles one way from my home-on-the-hill
> in Larkspur. The top of the BIG hill is probably about 800-1000
> feet up from the sea-level realm of Mill Valley.
It's not really practical to do regen with a conventional Advanced DC
series motor and Curtis PWM controller. However, that doesn't mean you
can't have regen.
One solution is to use a separate generator or alternator for regen. A
standard automotive alternator can generate over 120vdc if you spin it
fast enough. There are also lots of surplus 120vdc PM treadmill motors
that could generate up to 200vdc at 20-30 amps for short periods of
time.
The main challenge is in finding a good place to couple such a generator
or alternator to the drive train. It's fairly easy if your motor has a
shaft on the back end.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Hmm, last time I talked to the electric bus guy, he was talking
> 1000 lbs+ for the motor.
No; that's probably 1000 lbs for the entire axle.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a reminder that the next meeting of the Ventura County EAA is this
Saturday, January 25th at 10am.
It will be a visit to EV manufacturer Phoenix Motorcars,
236 W. Ojai Ave., Ojai, CA 93023 805-646-7073
Meet in Ojai at Phoenix Motorcars at 10am, or between 8:45 and 9:00am at the
Oaks Mall (Thousand Oaks) EV charging station (south side of Mall near the
entrance to the Movie Theaters).
If anyone desires to carpool, either needing a ride, or can give a ride,
please email me if you haven't done so already so.
Thanks,
Bruce Tucker
VC-EAA
http://www.geocities.com/vceaa/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
Okay, so here is the next installment of the ammeter story. I wasn't
able to find a 2.5milliohm power resistor at the local electronics
surplus store, but the more I thought about it, the more suspicious I
got that the toasted resistor was actually the shunt. It looked too
small.
I went home last night and looked more closely at the wiring of the
meter. It turns out that the fried resistor (internal to the meter) is
in series with the meter mechanism. It must be used for current
limiting, or calibration, or both.
There is no way that the wiring inside the meter could carry 20A. It is
very fine (probably 20 guage or smaller). Further, there is no room
inside the meter housing for a 1W power resistor for a shunt.
Therefore, it must have had an external shunt, either directly across
the meter's two terminals, or else remotely mounted somewhere. However,
when I originally opened the box, there was no sign of a shunt anywhere.
This probably explains why the resistor in the meter got fried the first
time I tried to use the charger--all the current was flowing through the
meter, rather than through the shunt. I'm actually surprised that the
resistor burned (and opened up) before the fine little meter wiring
vaporized.
I'm not entirely surprised that this happened. These chargers look like
they are pretty old, and have been opened and worked on several times.
When I originally called Fair Radio to ask for a charger, they had to
dig around and find this last one that they sent me. I imagine it had
been worked on on the bench, and the guy had this piece left over (the
shunt) and couldn't figure out where it went. When he turned on the
charger with no load connected, it did the right thing (the voltage
changed according to the settings of the knobs). However, when I got it
and put a load on it, even a small one, the meter pegged and (in
retrospect) fried the little resistor.
So, I have a few questions for those folks who have opened their Fair
Radio chargers.
1) Where is the shunt for the ammeter mounted? What does it look like?
Is it directly across the terminals?
2) Do you know what the resistor value is inside the ammeter (only
visible if you've taken the ammeter apart)?
I can kind of read the markings on the charred resistor. If I had
really good light, I might be able to make them out. It's one of those
green resistors, about the size of a 1/2W carbon film resistor (a little
smaller), but I'm not sure how to read the coding on it. If I recall
(going by memory here), there's an "M" number, an "R" number
(resistance?) and a "Y" number, each number is 3-4 digits, with no units
at the end. How does one decipher those markings?
Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
Dean
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--- Begin Message ---
These kind of comments always come across as strange to me on this list. We
all think that mass adaptation of EVs would be extremely beneficial, but we
don't know what kind of problems would occur.
Let's face it a small amount of ICE vehicles wouldn't polute the environment
much. Part of our problem is the sheer numbers of ICE's running around.
I understand that EV's are currently very small in number and likely to
remain so, but when I think in terms of the problems they will solve I try
to think of what it would be like if the numbers were flip flopped and there
were millions of EV's and only a handful of ICEs.
In this case, if everyone in the neighborhood came home from work around the
same time and plugged in their PFC-50 into their 240V outlet it just might
cause problems, or if they all waited until off peak times, there may not
any longer be off peak times.
damon
I agree with David. The small number of EVs in the neighbourhood will not
load the power plant considerably.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Anybody else catch the little blurb on (I think) CNN last night about a tax
break being considered for purchasers of SUV's and other large expensive
cars? I wonder if this is related.
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce EVangel Parmenter [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: January 22, 2003 1:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20030121/RGE
EM/Headlines/headdex/headdexBusiness_temp/46/46/59/
GM hybrids need aid: president
Government must offer incentives to encourage buyers
By GREG KEENAN AUTO INDUSTRY REPORTER
Tuesday, January 21, 2003 ? Page B4
TORONTO -- General Motors of Canada Ltd. is preparing to
bring several new high-tech hybrid vehicles to market, but
consumers will need government help to buy them, company
president Michael Grimaldi says.
"Because these new technologies add additional cost, we'll
need government to assist in building market acceptance with
incentives for the customer," Mr. Grimaldi said in a speech
to the Canadian Club in Toronto yesterday.
"General Motors intends to lead," he said. "But we can't do
it alone."
He would not say how many taxpayer dollars will be necessary
to encourage consumers to buy hybrid vehicles, which
generally combine a traditional internal combustion engine
with an electric motor or other drivetrain to provide
improved fuel economy.
"The question is, what is the consumer willing to pay?" he
told reporters, who pressed him after his speech to say how
much financial help would be needed.
There's a retail sales tax credit in Ontario that gives
consumers a $1,000 credit if they buy one of the existing
hybrid vehicles.
That amount is probably "not of the magnitude required" to
encourage more consumers to buy such vehicles, Mr. Grimaldi
said.
Across North America, GM Canada and parent General Motors
Corp. could sell one million hybrid vehicles over several
years beginning in 2004 if every customer selects that
option on a car, sport utility vehicle or pickup truck, he
said. "We have thousands of dollars of increased costs that
go into hybrid vehicles."
He cited the example of the EV1, an electric vehicle that GM
offered for lease in California at a rate that was heavily
subsidized by the auto maker. But it generated few sales and
GM eventually pulled it from the market.
One of the problems in bringing new technology to consumers
-- especially in the auto market -- is that people claim
during surveys that they're willing to pay more for
environmentally friendly vehicles, but they don't actually
do so when it comes time to put money on the table. In fact,
GM Canada has noted that prices for new vehicles have fallen
for each of the past five years in Canada, Mr. Grimaldi
said, which indicates strong consumer resistance to price
increases.
He would not reveal how much prices have fallen, but he said
the performance for GM Canada was roughly similar to that in
the United States, where overall prices fell by a little
more than 2 per cent last year and a staggering 3.3 per cent
in the fourth quarter alone.
"We don't see a lot of upward price flexibility."
GM Canada has been able to offset the deflation, he said, by
focusing heavily on cutting costs. That enabled GM Canada to
boost its market share, increase sales and improve its
profit last year, he said.
"Some of those dollars we're putting into new products.
We're [also] putting some of it on the bottom line."
Despite the aggressive moves to provide more environmentally
friendly vehicles, Mr. Grimaldi warned that the federal
government's requirement under the Kyoto Protocol that auto
makers reduce engine fuel consumption by 25 per cent by 2010
might force GM Canada not to offer some vehicles for sale
here.
If the requirement forced GM Canada to reduce the
performance and functionality of some vehicles, it might
mean they could no longer compete in the market and hence
would not be offered, he said.
The voluntary approach to meeting fuel consumption targets
in Canada has worked well, he said, and should be
continued.
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grannes, Dean wrote:
> I went home last night and looked more closely at the wiring of the
> meter. It turns out that the fried resistor (internal to the meter)
> is in series with the meter mechanism. It must be used for current
> limiting, or calibration, or both.
>
> There is no way that the wiring inside the meter could carry 20A...
> Therefore, it must have had an external shunt, either directly across
> the meter's two terminals, or else remotely mounted somewhere.
OK, that makes sense. There is supposed to be an external shunt, and it
is missing.
So, just buy a standard 20amp 50mv shunt, and wire your meter across it.
Replace the burned out precision resistor (which was probably for
calibration) with a 10-turn pot, and adjust it so the meter reads
correctly.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dean,
I have the manual for the charger at home and although I can see it from here (I'm at
work) I do remember 2 versions.
One had an external shunt and one ran 15 amps through the meter. I'm off to a Sharks
game this evening but if you can hang on a day or so I can send you the relevant
drawings from the manual.
Steve
In a message dated 1/22/2003 12:37:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Grannes, Dean"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Folks,
>
>Okay, so here is the next installment of the ammeter story. �I wasn't
>able to find a 2.5milliohm power resistor at the local electronics
>surplus store, but the more I thought about it, the more suspicious I
>got that the toasted resistor was actually the shunt. �It looked too
>small.
>
>I went home last night and looked more closely at the wiring of the
>meter. �It turns out that the fried resistor (internal to the meter) is
>in series with the meter mechanism. �It must be used for current
>limiting, or calibration, or both.
>
>There is no way that the wiring inside the meter could carry 20A. �It is
>very fine (probably 20 guage or smaller). �Further, there is no room
>inside the meter housing for a 1W power resistor for a shunt.
>Therefore, it must have had an external shunt, either directly across
>the meter's two terminals, or else remotely mounted somewhere. �However,
>when I originally opened the box, there was no sign of a shunt anywhere.
>This probably explains why the resistor in the meter got fried the first
>time I tried to use the charger--all the current was flowing through the
>meter, rather than through the shunt. �I'm actually surprised that the
>resistor burned (and opened up) before the fine little meter wiring
>vaporized.
>
>I'm not entirely surprised that this happened. �These chargers look like
>they are pretty old, and have been opened and worked on several times.
>When I originally called Fair Radio to ask for a charger, they had to
>dig around and find this last one that they sent me. �I imagine it had
>been worked on on the bench, and the guy had this piece left over (the
>shunt) and couldn't figure out where it went. �When he turned on the
>charger with no load connected, it did the right thing (the voltage
>changed according to the settings of the knobs). �However, when I got it
>and put a load on it, even a small one, the meter pegged and (in
>retrospect) fried the little resistor.
>
>So, I have a few questions for those folks who have opened their Fair
>Radio chargers.
>
>1) Where is the shunt for the ammeter mounted? �What does it look like?
>Is it directly across the terminals?
>2) Do you know what the resistor value is inside the ammeter (only
>visible if you've taken the ammeter apart)? �
>
>I can kind of read the markings on the charred resistor. �If I had
>really good light, I might be able to make them out. �It's one of those
>green resistors, about the size of a 1/2W carbon film resistor (a little
>smaller), but I'm not sure how to read the coding on it. �If I recall
>(going by memory here), there's an "M" number, an "R" number
>(resistance?) and a "Y" number, each number is 3-4 digits, with no units
>at the end. �How does one decipher those markings?
>
>Thanks in advance for any help you can provide.
>Dean
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Development of an AC Controller
by Jack Swartz, EBEAA Member
Saturday, January 25, 2003
>From 10 to 12 noon
Meeting Location: Alameda First Baptist Church
1515 Santa Clara Ave, Alameda
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
First meeting of the new year.
Jack Swartz has been working on development of a new AC
controller. His test vehicle is an electrovan, which he
has been modifying in a variety of ways. Jack plans on
discussing his research, design and testing on a 3-phase
controller.
Also plenty of discussion about production and conversion
EVs, and how people can get an EV for local or commute
driving. Various legislation to discuss and always a Q&A
session. Plus planning for potentially 2 rallys - East
Contra Costa / Pleasant Hill in the Spring and possibly
Berkeley/Oakland area in the Fall.
Directions: Church is on North side of street, at the corner
of Santa Clara Ave and Stanton St in Alameda. Turn North on
Stanton St. and left into the parking lot.
http://www.geocities.com/ebeaa
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm saying that it can't sustain 30 mph up a 5% grade. Which means that
it can't even accelerate to 30 mph. Given enough time it might reach 20
to 25 mph.
Around here some of the freeway onramps are 5% grades.
In the end the decision is up to you.
On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 09:21, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> At 12:28 AM 1/22/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >78 Kw is simply not enough power to accelerate this much vehicle very
> >quickly and it can't handle accelerating up more than the gentlest of
> >slopes.
> >
> >Victors system is nice, for the right vehicle. This isn't the right
> >vehicle.
>
> I think we need to define "accelerate up a slope".
> Last time I checked, a loaded dumptruck creeps up a 6% grade at a low
> speed. Since all the steep hills around here are relatively short, I don't
> see a problem with not being able to hit 50MPH while going up hill.
> Are you saying it won't drag a 16,000 lb vehicle up a hill at all? Or that
> it can't do 50mph? Or that it can't do 10mph?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
>http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter wrote:
According to Victor's website his biggest system (the WS14) can NOT
produce double it's continuous power under ANY circumstances. This is a
limitation of the controller. Maximum power output is only 78kw (the
same for all of his motors), the continuous output from the WS14 is
45kw.
Well, the AC systems are listed as 282 amps peak. I based my ideas on
a 336v system. I'm looking at *input* power to the system, to compare
to the known *input* power of the Red Beastie when it was on the west
coast. Its certainly not fair to compare the output power of an AC
system to the input power of a DC system!
Red Beastie:
Weight 5330lbs
Input power 54kW
Power/weight 44.9 kg/kW
Now the peak input power of the AC system would be 94.7kW at 336
volts. This means that the power to weight ratio would match the Red
Beastie if the resulting Pickup weighed 9347lbs.
I have a feeling it would work based on those numbers. If you want
fast you don't start with a full size Pickup, and then threaten to
drag a large trailer. John did tow with his Red Beastie, a large
trailer with the White Zombie and support equipment, down I-5 to
Woodburn. So I think that looking at his input power to weight ratio
is a good starting point.
Anyway, with that kind of voltage target it seems a single string of
8v GC batteries would work out nicely, say 40 of them for about
2500lbs. Rearranged as a double string at 160v they would complain
about being asked for 600 amps (1200 amp controller), it seems that
8v GC batteries don't like anything over about 350 amps.
Neon
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> Two questions, does anyone know if Brusa's (and therefore
> Solectria's) KWH meters have RS-232 serial output? If not, are there
> any other reasonably priced meters that do (besides the Link10).
The Brusa/Solectria model AH counter I have (BC-29) doesn't have an RS-232
interface. I don't think their new ones do, either. They typically have
signal pulses coming out to register energy usage. It would be a simple
matter to hook these signal lines up to a BASIC Stamp or similar device and
have it spit out whatever data you like on an RS-232 port.
Datasheets for all their AH counters are at:
http://www.brusa.biz/assets/downloads/datasheets/bcm_1120.pdf
I'm not sure of other units with RS-232, sorry.
-Tom
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
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