EV Digest 2552
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT: Mobile solar power
by Eric Penne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Truck (im)possibility
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Truck (im)possibility
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Truck (im)possibility �
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) How to price my EV for sale
by "jlentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: KWH Meters
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Clean Renewable Electricity
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: KWH Meters
by Keith Richtman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers)
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Hard to fix or find brakes.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Truck (im)possibility
by "Humphrey, Timothy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: With Friends Like These. . .
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: ZAP L.U.V. cost
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) No EV is zero emission (was: With Friends Like These. .)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Requesting NiZn Summary
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: With Friends Like These. . .
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Fair Radio Charger ammeter replacement?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: KWH Meters
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
32) Re: E-Meter/Link10 question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Truck (im)possibility
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I know you can't view websites but http://www.homepower.com just had an
article like this. If you're subscribed and your mail goes to the ship
eventually you will get it. Otherwise I would be happy to download the
online version and send it to you. Sometimes the articles themselves
are independent PDFs and are very small otherwise I can just copy and
paste it into an email or create my own PDF.
>From rough memory:
It had a small PV on a post that was mounted in the yard outside his
apartment. This could also be mounted to a balcony or something. He
had a small inverter and a couple batteries in boxes that could be
easily transported. Then he ran an extension cord into his apartment
and ran different things off of it.
That's from memory so I may be mixing a few different stories together.
Tell me how you would like to see the article and I will get it to
you. How big is a reasonable attachment? Can you print it out for
reading later? If it is over a certain size, I can send you an email
in advance and not send the attachment until you give the go ahead.
Keep afloat,
Eric Penne
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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The Dual 9" setup has a slightly higher continuous power output than the
WS14 (somewhere around 52kw), i.e the motors can handle this all day.
Someone that owns 9" ADCs will have to say for sure but I believe that
they can sustain 400 amps each for 5 minutes. At any rate the Raptor
1200 can only sustain 700 amps on the motor loop and 500 amps on the
battery side (continuously).
This works out to a sustained power output of roughly 60-65 kw (80-87
hp). I'm guessing that the motors could handle this for 30 minutes to an
hour.
5 minutes? I don't know. I'd guess somewhere between the 140kw max and
60kw. 80-90 kw maybe.
However accelerating up to a decent speed only last a minute or two.
On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 09:26, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> At 12:28 AM 1/22/2003 -0700, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >For the same price(or less) you can get a double 9" DC setup with a 1200
> >amp Raptor controller. Continuous rated power will be roughly the same
> >(dual 9" has a slight edge) but Max power is almost twice what Victor's
> >can do, over three times his continuous rated power. Only down side is
> >no regen.
> >
> >Still a marginal solution, but at least it can climb hills (for a short
> >time).
>
> What about the heat problem? Yes it has the power to climb hills, but can
> it keep it up for the 5 minutes to go up a long not-so-steep hill? Will it
> still be able to cruise at 60mph after the hill? Or would it need to stay
> slow for a while so the motor(s) could cool back down?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
>http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--
EVDL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If he turned down the current limit on his car to get the same power to
weight ratio he should be able to get a feel for what the slow speed
acceleration would be like.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
>
> I'm saying that it can't sustain 30 mph up a 5% grade. Which means that
> it can't even accelerate to 30 mph. Given enough time it might reach 20
> to 25 mph.
>
> Around here some of the freeway onramps are 5% grades.
>
>
> In the end the decision is up to you.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:59 PM 1/22/2003 -0600, Andre Blanchard wrote:
If he turned down the current limit on his car to get the same power to
weight ratio he should be able to get a feel for what the slow speed
acceleration would be like.
Probably like my loaded 5yd dumptruck with a 318 engine. Slow.
I don't expect jack rabbit starts when moving that much mass.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From�:� "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> � To�:�
"'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> �
Subject�:� RE: EVLN(GM can't do it without bilking taxpayers) �
Date�:� Wed, 22 Jan 2003 12:48:09 -0500 �
Anybody else catch the little blurb on (I think) CNN last night about a tax
break being considered for purchasers of SUV's and other large expensive
cars?� I wonder if this is related.
Hi Lawrence,
I don't know if it's the same story, but I remember hearing about a tax
break for businesses who need >8,000 lb. GVWR pickups for their businesses.
Due to a loophole, large SUV's also meet this the same guidelines, so people
are starting "businesses" solely for the purpose of getting tax breaks on
giant SUV's.
Tim
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From�:� "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> � To�:�
[EMAIL PROTECTED] �
Subject�:� Re: Truck (im)possibility �
Date�:� Wed, 22 Jan 2003 08:21:25 -0800 �
I think we need to define "accelerate up a slope". Last time I checked, a
loaded dumptruck creeps up a 6% grade at a low speed.� Since all >>the
steep hills around here are relatively short, I don't see a problem with
not being able to >hit 50MPH while going up hill. Are you saying it won't
drag a 16,000 lb vehicle up a hill at all?� Or that it can't do 50mph?� >Or
that it can't do 10mph?
Using my dad's old 90 F150 as an example, the 4-speed granny low would only
get you to about 15 mph in first at about 4,000 RPM. Assuming the tranny
could handle a higher speed (I don't think I would go more than about 6,000
RPM on a truck tranny), you could theoretically get to about 22 mph before
having to upshift. In that gear, the truck with the 4.9L V6 would easily
accelerate, even with a 5,000 pound boat trailer on the back and a few
hundred pounds of passengers and gear. (Actually, that same rig would hold
50 mph climbing passes in 3rd with that setup.)
I would guess that in the same situation, with Victor's setup, you could
maintain at least 22 mph in that granny low, even in a 16,000 pound rig.
Remember, you're only 16,000 pounds for those occasions where you're towing
a trailer, and when driving a 16,000 pound rig, attempting to maintain more
than 30 mph on any significant incline is, at best, a huge waste of
fuel/watt-hours. For shorter inclines, you get your speed up at the bottom
and hold it until you get to the top.
Tim
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--- Begin Message ---
From�:� Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> � CC�:� [EMAIL PROTECTED] �
Subject�:� Re: Truck (im)possibility �
Date�:� Tue, 21 Jan 2003 15:55:27 -0800 �
What happens with regen systems when the batteries are full?� To use it
for braking, you'd need a resistive load to dump the energy into, which
I believe trains do have...
Hi Alan,
How often would that happen, though? I live at 4,700 feet and pick up the
train at sea level. When I leave my driveway, I'll get a chunk of regen for
about 30 feet (5 seconds) which will overcharge a tad, but probably not
enough to cause any damage. From there, it's a slight incline into town,
where I climb to about 4,850 feet before starting the downhill. From there,
it's 4,850 feet declined in about 18 miles, some of which does involve
slight accelerations. But by the time I get to the downhill bit, I
seriously doubt I could regen enough to overcharge by the time I get to the
bottom.
For those who are worried about it, maybe a warning light/buzzer and a regen
defeat switch will do the trick? Maybe not suitable for publicly resold
vehicles, but fine for the vast majority of hobbyists. Or crank up the
cabin heaters and redirect them to exhaust outside.
Tim
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On 22 Jan 2003 at 9:39, Keith Richtman wrote:
> Two questions, does anyone know if Brusa's (and therefore
> Solectria's) KWH meters have RS-232 serial output?
I believe they speak CAN, not RS232. There may be some way to convert them
to speak with, say, a Palm, but I don't know what it would be.
Some interesting things could probably be done using a moderately cheap
Metex DMM with an RS232 interface. They sell for $75 or so these days. I
don't know how well they'd stand up to the temperature extremes in a
vehicle, though.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Consider yourself fortunate if you can contract with a power supplier that
attempts to be environmentally responsible. I can't. Most of the cities,
townships, and counties in Ohio have drawn up local aggregation contracts
with alternate suppliers. You get a choice of Ohio Edison or your area's
contracted aggregator. Big choice.
I have a mailing address in the village of Clinton. If I actually lived in
that village I could use Green Mountain, which they've signed up with as
their only alternate supplier. But because I live in Franklin Township, I
can choose Edison or Shell Energy. Even though Green Mountain serves this
area, Franklin Township's contract with Shell is exclusive, so Green
Mountain can't sell me power.
"Free market competition" in electricity is certainly a misnomer here in
Ohio.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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On 21 Jan 2003 at 21:01, John Bryan wrote:
> One of your
> drives would sure be nice in a Sparrow, of one could be
> made to fit. It would solve John's commute problems
> with increased efficiency and regen, if the voltage
> would be high enough.
At 156 volts, wouldn't the performance be somewhat on the mild side?
(Probably not as mild as my Force at 144 volts, but still not too far out
there.)
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
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On 21 Jan 2003 at 23:08, Steve wrote:
> I feel
> these additional 'elsewhere' emissions should not be categorically dismissed
> as irrelevant. To do so would misstate what a ZEV infrastructure is capable
> of doing and ultimately undermine efforts to promote it.
I can see the point here, but let's face facts. It's like politics. The
moderates' and progressives' weakness is related to a natural tendency to be
open-minded and thoughtful. They like to hear all viewpoints before coming
to a considered conclusion. They tend to debate our ideas in a rational
way.
It's a cakewalk for the radical right to counter that. They just herd
everybody into one place. Their leaders play on the crowd's emotions and
outrage. They teach them the words and get them all to shout as loudly as
they can. No matter if some of them start off not entirely agreeing; often
those are the loudest ones. It works.
Similarly, the anti-EV crowd has been shouting "EVs just shift pollution"
for years. We've been quietly providing correct information to counter
that, but we haven't much changed the public perception. The public tends
to hear the loudest voice. Especially since they have the media in their
pockets (literally), the anti-EV forces control what the public thinks.
I say it's time for us to start speaking with one voice, too. We KNOW that
EVs provide a dramatic reduction in emissions at all levels. It isn't zero,
but so what? Let's quit arguing over whether it is or even should be, and
start shouting about how much cleaner and ^better^ EVs are, model for model,
than even the cleanest gassers.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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From�:� Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> � To�:� [EMAIL PROTECTED]
�
Subject�:� Re: Truck (im)possibility �
Date�:� Wed, 22 Jan 2003 11:03:41 -0800 �
No; that's probably 1000 lbs for the entire axle.
Does anybody have specs for loco traction motors, such as the ones you might
find on a GP-9? I imagine that with the recent consolidation, a lot of
older locomotives might be going to the scrap, and would be interested in
any info, such as AC/DC, voltage, amps, size, etc. I know, for instance,
that 1200 amps is the redline on a P-59, but don't know at what voltage, and
if that's the maximum amperage delivered to each motor, or all eight.
Thanks.
Tim
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At 2:35 PM -0500 1/22/03, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 22 Jan 2003 at 9:39, Keith Richtman wrote:
Two questions, does anyone know if Brusa's (and therefore
Solectria's) KWH meters have RS-232 serial output?
I believe they speak CAN, not RS232. There may be some way to convert them
to speak with, say, a Palm, but I don't know what it would be.
Some interesting things could probably be done using a moderately cheap
Metex DMM with an RS232 interface. They sell for $75 or so these days. I
don't know how well they'd stand up to the temperature extremes in a
vehicle, though.
We need a system that is designed to log KWH and export it via RS232,
it can't be something that is modified to do so. We already have the
home-grown telemetry system, we just need a backup for it.
Keith
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Jan 2003 at 11:19, Tim Clevenger wrote:
> Due to a loophole, large SUV's also meet this the same guidelines, so people
> are starting "businesses" solely for the purpose of getting tax breaks on
> giant SUV's.
You want welfare cheats? There you go. Corporate welfare: some goes to the
(presumably) deserving small businesses, most goes to the megacorporations
which don't need it, and a little goes to the fakers.
This may be the only time I'll ever cheer on the IRS. Let's hear it for
their auditors!
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
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--- Begin Message ---
Moose Motors Obsolete Brake Parts
1050 Goodwin Ave.
Penngrove, CA 94951
Gary Flo used to live somewhere near them.
These guys relined my shoes and fixed my master cylinder and got kits for my
old slave cylinders. They were working on a 34 Bently limo when I picked up
the shoes. They had a little electric cart in the back they were going to
fix up and use to move cars around with. They have a big inventory and
really helped me to get my brakes working on the Laher cart. My brakes were
from some small British sports car like a Sprite. Lawrence Rhodes.....
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--- Begin Message ---
> >Victors WS14 weighs over 200lbs. Two 9" ADCs will weigh
> almost 300lbs.
> >A V8 weighs, what 600lbs?
> >Heavy vehicles need heavy motors.
>
How about the po$$ibility of tail$hafting a WS-14 to a WarP (or ADC) 9" tied
to a Z2K.
You get the be$t of both world$, no?
Hmmmm, maybe not $uch a good idea. Can a 9" withstand 10krpm?
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Lets also remeber that there ARE 1000 amp e-meters and KwHr meters out
> there.
One of them is Brusa Ah meter for which the shunt can be made to order
for any (reasonable) current. You get true reading on the display.
Those are active shunts (conversion PCB sits right on the shunt It
converts the current to a frequency and remote display just counts).
Few shunts are shown here:
http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_messgeraete127.htm
<Plug>
They are offered on my site.
<Unplug>
Victor
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Sure Otmar, AC sparrow would kick anyone's **tt :-D
I was saying *my current Siemens drives* are too large (and too
powerful in my opinion, but it's subjective, right Rich?).
If people have trouble fitting PFC-20 in, it will be difficult to fit
Simovert 6SV-1 in, even short one. Well, new Simotion is smaller and
with 18 kW induction or 22 kW synchronous AC motor would be better
choice: http://www.metricmind.com/images/simotion.jpg
Victor
Otmar wrote:
>
> Victor writes:
> >John,
> >
> >The drives I have are too powerful for a Sparrow, but in general
> >you will benefit from all the AC advantages if the system is sized
> >properly, as any other vehicle would.
>
> Victor, are you sure?
> Sparrows are 156V, and I've seen a very fun one that ran at 1200
> amps. 300 amps is not unusual.
>
> They are limited in space, and fitting the inverter in may be an
> issue, but aside from that I think a AC sparrow would be great.
>
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Z2K controller, now available.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
Is this still true if all the cars made 1/10 the pollution they do
now? This is a viable concern, as doesn't Toyota claim the Prius
makes only 10% of the smog of a regular car?
Also, is this true if you live in an area of coal fired power plants?
This is a concern for my area.
--- "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can see the point here, but let's face facts. It's like
> politics. The
> moderates' and progressives' weakness is related to a natural
> tendency to be
> open-minded and thoughtful. They like to hear all viewpoints
> before coming
> to a considered conclusion. They tend to debate our ideas in a
> rational
> way.
>
> It's a cakewalk for the radical right to counter that. They just
> herd
> everybody into one place. Their leaders play on the crowd's
> emotions and
> outrage. They teach them the words and get them all to shout as
> loudly as
> they can. No matter if some of them start off not entirely
> agreeing; often
> those are the loudest ones. It works.
>
> Similarly, the anti-EV crowd has been shouting "EVs just shift
> pollution"
> for years. We've been quietly providing correct information to
> counter
> that, but we haven't much changed the public perception. The
> public tends
> to hear the loudest voice. Especially since they have the media in
> their
> pockets (literally), the anti-EV forces control what the public
> thinks.
>
> I say it's time for us to start speaking with one voice, too. We
> KNOW that
> EVs provide a dramatic reduction in emissions at all levels. It
> isn't zero,
> but so what? Let's quit arguing over whether it is or even should
> be, and
> start shouting about how much cleaner and ^better^ EVs are, model
> for model,
> than even the cleanest gassers.
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
"John G. Lussmyer" wrote:
>
> At 04:24 PM 1/21/2003 -0600, Sam Uzi wrote:
> >on this site (techTV's best product choices from the recent CES)
> >
> >http://www.techtv.com/news/ces2003/story/0,24195,3413910,00.html
> >
> >they list the ZAP Light Utility Vehicle (the freeway-capable,
> >not-yet-available, 240 miles @ 70mph vehicle) as having a cost of
> >$25,000... maybe they aren't getting that sweet deal on the batteries,
> >after all
>
> I was just chatting with a friend about the ZAP. He'd been talking to a
> salesman(?) about it. Supposedly was told that their are 15 batteries, and
> each costs $350.
> Wonder how much BS was flowing?
Enough to clog the pipes. What battery model are they talking about?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
>
> I have to disagree that emissions generated by power plants and refineries
> are irrelevant in a fair comparison of the pollution caused by ICEs and EVs
> since EVs require a much more refined source of energy than ICEs.
>
> Assuming, for the sake of apples to apples comparison, ICEs and EVs both get
> their energy from a petroleum source, it seems unreasonable to measure the
> pollution generated from the burning of the fuel at the ICE and disregard
> completely the pollution generated by the same fuel burned at the utility
> company that produces the electricity the EV will eventually consume.
>
> Of course, EVs *can* get their energy from cleaner sources whereas ICEs
> cannot. Under certain conditions, as Lee Hart and BORTEL have described, I
> now see those sources can even be effectively zero emission. However, until
> we have some hard data that indicates those conditions prevail now and would
> still after a significant percentage of the public are charging EVs, I feel
> these additional 'elsewhere' emissions should not be categorically dismissed
> as irrelevant. To do so would misstate what a ZEV infrastructure is capable
> of doing and ultimately undermine efforts to promote it.
>
> Steve
Zero emission *vehicle* is a definition of how much a vehicle *emits*.
Zero emission is NOT "overall zero pollution ownership", we know that.
as you drive. If you factor in elsewhere emissions generated by
charging,
non of us has ZEV, it's impossible. The gliders themselves we all use
were manufactured using electricity generated by coal, so some emission
impact is "built into" each vehicle from the very beginning, even if
one time fixed amount.
My 2 mm.
Victor
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You may be right Peter.
I was coming from the fact that WS12 were designed for VW golf - to
mid size and weight type of car. I don't have facts, but appears like a
plastic Sparrow weighs less than Golf, so will perform better than
golf, may be dangerously better, especially having one traction wheel.
But, I forgot, what they call dangerous in Europe, called fun in the US.
Here are the cars 5105WS12s are installed in:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/opel.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/images/city_stromer.jpg
Sparrow is not quite as large and heavy. (Doesn't mean a thing,
right?..)
And, no, I still have 5105WS12s in {Holland] stock. Any takers?
Victor
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2003-01-21 at 20:33, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > The drives I have are too powerful for a Sparrow, but in general
> > you will benefit from all the AC advantages if the system is sized
> > properly, as any other vehicle would.
>
> Huh? What about the WS12 or have you sold out of those? It's roughly
> the same continous and power as the stock drive setup for a sparrow.
> Quite a bit lower on Max power if you are running 156V, but max power is
> what keeps burning out the drives in sparrows anyway.
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fred whitridge wrote:
> ...they have $8mm of cash on the balance sheet,...
A 8mm stack of cash is only 1/3 inch high. Not that much...
(Metric mind couldn't resist...)
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> In this case, if everyone in the neighborhood came home from work around the
> same time and plugged in their PFC-50 into their 240V outlet it just might
> cause problems, or if they all waited until off peak times, there may not
> any longer be off peak times.
>
When I lived back in Illinois my power company was experimenting with
something that would solve this type of problem. Basically you got a
lower rate but had to add special power control boxes to certain high
drain appliances (like water heaters).
The power company had control of these boxes (the consumer could
override the power company, but they got fined if they did it too often)
and could shut them down during periods of high demand.
If you had a similar thing controlling the EV charger you could get a
special rate and the power company could turn on and off chargers to
balance their load. This would result in a much more efficient system
and they could run the plants at nearly constant power.
If consumers NEEDED a quick charge they could hit a button on the
control box and charge while paying a higher rate.
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> The Dual 9" setup has a slightly higher continuous power output than the
> WS14 (somewhere around 52kw), i.e the motors can handle this all day.
Comparing dual 9" to a single WS14? Only if money must be equal
and si highest priority.
I never said AC setup is cheaper, we're talking about power and
technical possibility to use AC setup, comparing the two.
Please don't bring money issue here. It may be totally irrelevant for
some people and 1st priority for others, we don't know.
Let's talk about performance if you wish.
With all respect, let me disagree: comparable continuous power
AC setup (money aside please) will be superior to any DC one,
I don't believe there are any objections to this.
Now, for a *given* hobbyist counting dollars first and watts later,
decision *likely* to be use DC setup, which does not contradict
with my first point - liquid cooled AC one is still better considering
overall benefits of it. You may massage the facts anyway you want;
but anyone but the die hard, who has AC and DC system in front of him
at the same price/size/power would pick AC one I think. So only dollars
and availability (and may be fear of unknown) matter at the end, but
this is not technical issue.
Victor
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>
> 1) Where is the shunt for the ammeter mounted? What does it look like?
> Is it directly across the terminals?
On mine it's mounted high up on the right side of the charger, just
above the phenolic board holding the rectifier diodes and toward the
front. It has a black base with two square "turrets" made of brass
sticking up and a piece of metal (the actual shunt) between them. One
of the output leads goes directly to this and the other side connects to
one of the front panel switches. The meter is supposed to connect
across the shunt as well (in parallel to the piece of metal)
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--- Begin Message ---
John,
Just give me the specs for your truck (gear ratios, loaded and
unloaded weight, wheel diameter and battery choice) and I will
simulate acceleration on flat, on ramp, gradeability on given
slope, max speed, etc.
Otherwise performance discussion it's a bandwidth waste.
Victor
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Of course you use twice as small batteries twice as many of them.
Comparison is valid if optimal supplies are used (as long as
the battery weight, size and Wh stored is the same).
Victor
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" wrote:
>
> On 21 Jan 2003 at 21:01, John Bryan wrote:
>
> > One of your
> > drives would sure be nice in a Sparrow, of one could be
> > made to fit. It would solve John's commute problems
> > with increased efficiency and regen, if the voltage
> > would be high enough.
>
> At 156 volts, wouldn't the performance be somewhat on the mild side?
> (Probably not as mild as my Force at 144 volts, but still not too far out
> there.)
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this to all
> thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
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Brusa Ah meter is nothing more than a counter of pos and neg pulses
(adding and subtracting). Count them with any piece of hardware
which has RS232 output, and you're set.
Victor
Keith Richtman wrote:
>
> At 2:35 PM -0500 1/22/03, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> >On 22 Jan 2003 at 9:39, Keith Richtman wrote:
> >
> >> Two questions, does anyone know if Brusa's (and therefore
> >> Solectria's) KWH meters have RS-232 serial output?
> >
> >I believe they speak CAN, not RS232. There may be some way to convert them
> >to speak with, say, a Palm, but I don't know what it would be.
> >
> >Some interesting things could probably be done using a moderately cheap
> >Metex DMM with an RS232 interface. They sell for $75 or so these days. I
> >don't know how well they'd stand up to the temperature extremes in a
> >vehicle, though.
>
> We need a system that is designed to log KWH and export it via RS232,
> it can't be something that is modified to do so. We already have the
> home-grown telemetry system, we just need a backup for it.
>
> Keith
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
Are the shunts and their boards available without the display?
Is the pulse output isolated from the measured current?
thanks,
Steve
In a message dated 1/22/2003 3:34:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Victor Tikhonov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>Rich Rudman wrote:
>
>> Lets also remeber that there ARE 1000 amp e-meters and KwHr meters �out
>> there.
>
>One of them is Brusa Ah meter for which the shunt can be made to order
>for any (reasonable) current. You get true reading on the display.
>Those are active shunts (conversion PCB sits right on the shunt It
>converts the current to a frequency and remote display just counts).
>Few shunts are shown here:
>http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_messgeraete127.htm
>
><Plug>
>They are offered on my site.
><Unplug>
>
>Victor
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I will find out for you for sure. My guess, with Brusa's safety in
mind, since the shunt is on the traction pack but display is powered
by 12V car system, they must be isolated from each other.
Victor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Victor,
>
> Are the shunts and their boards available without the display?
> Is the pulse output isolated from the measured current?
>
> thanks,
> Steve
>
> In a message dated 1/22/2003 3:34:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, Victor Tikhonov
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> >Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> >> Lets also remeber that there ARE 1000 amp e-meters and KwHr meters out
> >> there.
> >
> >One of them is Brusa Ah meter for which the shunt can be made to order
> >for any (reasonable) current. You get true reading on the display.
> >Those are active shunts (conversion PCB sits right on the shunt It
> >converts the current to a frequency and remote display just counts).
> >Few shunts are shown here:
> >http://www.brusa.biz/products/e_messgeraete127.htm
> >
> ><Plug>
> >They are offered on my site.
> ><Unplug>
> >
> >Victor
> >
> >
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--- Begin Message ---
At 01:58 PM 1/22/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Just give me the specs for your truck (gear ratios, loaded and
unloaded weight, wheel diameter and battery choice) and I will
simulate acceleration on flat, on ramp, gradeability on given
slope, max speed, etc.
Otherwise performance discussion it's a bandwidth waste.
I agree there. I was originally just asking about the possibility of such
a truck. Now that I see it is possible, I'm going to start doing more
research into what would be required and what is available.
Personally, I don't give a damn what the performance is like while hauling
the trailer, just that it would be possible is all I need. Accelerating
like an overloaded Semi would be fine while hauling the trailer.
When the truck is just running on it's own, then I would want to be able to
keep up with reasonable traffic on hills and such.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 14:52, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> >
> > The Dual 9" setup has a slightly higher continuous power output than the
> > WS14 (somewhere around 52kw), i.e the motors can handle this all day.
>
> Comparing dual 9" to a single WS14? Only if money must be equal
> and si highest priority.
>
> I never said AC setup is cheaper, we're talking about power and
> technical possibility to use AC setup, comparing the two.
> Please don't bring money issue here. It may be totally irrelevant for
> some people and 1st priority for others, we don't know.
>
Victor you brought money into it. I started out by saying that a single
WS14 isn't up to the task and mentioned that a dual 9" setup with a
single Raptor 1200 is barely adequate.
Previous to you talking about money the ONLY thing I said about money
was I feel that your systems are a better choice, if you can afford
them.
A Dual WS14 setup with dual controllers has roughly the same maximum
power as the Dual 9" single Raptor setup and a considerable edge in
continuous power.
NOW I am saying:
The dual WS14 is the better system...if you can afford it and was
willing to pay the price this is probably a better choice. Most of us
are not named Bill Gates so money is always a consideration.
Dollar for dollar the Dual 9" cost about the same (or less) than a
single WS14 setup. If all you can afford is a single WS14 and it WON'T
do the job then why buy it? It is reasonable to consider a dual 9" that
WILL (barely) do the job.
If John can afford a dual WS14 setup in addition to the cost of the new
2003 F250 he mentioned, then absolutely he should consider whether it's
worth the extra cost to him.
Just out of curiousity, what does a WS14 and controller run these days?
$8,000?
> Let's talk about performance if you wish.
>
> With all respect, let me disagree: comparable continuous power
> AC setup (money aside please) will be superior to any DC one,
> I don't believe there are any objections to this.
>
In some ways yes. Definitely more efficient and there is that Regen
thing.
However most(all?) of the DC solutions that have the same continuous
power rating have two to five times as much MAXIMUM power as your AC
motors. For a vehicle this heavy maximum power considerations are
important.
I was just looking at the Warp motors. A single 9" warp motor and a
Raptor controller has roughly the same 1hr rating as the WS14 and
almost twice the maximum power. An 11" warp and a raptor 1200 has (I
believe) a slightly higher continuous power rating and still twice the
max power.
And of course both of these setups cost less than a WS14 (for those who
consider cost)
An 11" warp and Otmar's new controller has a significant edge over any
of your systems, except in Regen and efficiency and efficiency would be
close. On the negative side this system would cost close to $11,000.
And I have no idea how long it could stand up to it's potential 650kw of
power or were you would find batteries that could source that much
power.
(Victor please don't take this last comment seriously, this is a drag
racing setup not a long haul setup)
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