EV Digest 2556
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: How to price my EV for sale - plain text version
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) E-tek Sparrows (was Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?))
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: E-teks for Sparrows
by "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Mad as hell...
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ice Skating in Wonderland
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How to price my EV for sale
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by "George Tylinski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Emeter/Palm Graphs
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Emeter/Palm Graphs
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: E-teks for Sparrows
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: E-teks for Sparrows
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: E-teks for Sparrows
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Competition started (was Truck (im)possibility)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) OT: 8" Advance DC motor on eBay
by Roger Daisley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Ice Skating in Wonderland
by John Bryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) AC Drive for Sparrows
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: E-teks for Sparrows
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) re: Mad as hell...
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Sparrow Battery Trailer (was E-teks for Sparrows)
by "Thomas Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Emeter/Palm Graphs
by Sharkey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Competition started (was Truck (im)possibility)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: E-tek Sparrows (was Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?))
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) EVLN(JOBS: GEM Engineer; EV experience not required)-long
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>
>
> I need to sell my 1992 Saturn SL2 EV for financial reasons, and I'm trying
> to figure out what kind of price to set.
If this means selling as fast as possible to raise money for (?) we have a
problem!
> I don't want to part the car out,
> since it is a functioning EV.
Good
> I also don't want to give it to the Kidney
> Foundation, since I need the money sooner than a tax break (plus they
would
> just scrap it, since they wouldn't know how to deal with it).
Right and You need money
> Going through
> my receipts, I added up that the car cost 20K to build. This consists of
5K
> for the donor car (it is a very clean 1992 Saturn SL2) and 15K on parts
and
> welding labor. I had the welding done professionally. I also am not
paying
> myself anything for working on it.
First EV parts don't seem to were out like gas parts so even it you have
100k electric miles on it if the parts aren't blown then all this means is
everything is put together right . I am more worried about an EV with 5 k
that 50k as time has tested it. Nobody seem to know how many miles a "9
motor is good for, must be a lot .
So 20k parts and what 400 hours work ( I looked and its a very nice job
, EV mechanic get 1/2 what gas mechanic get per hour and 1 hour of
work is 120 minutes long) so that's 8k for the work (sorry but that the way
it goes)
> I realize that I'm probably not going to
> get out what I put into it, but I'd appreciate some input as to what would
> be a fair price to ask.
well that looks like 28k (hope your not mad cuss you know there was more
hours in the work :-)
I know there are EV builders out there who if they could get 1/2 what a auto
repair shop gets would be cranking out EV's as fast as the big 3 is cranking
suv's . I have My Mazda truck for sale which I built just to sell , I did
it as quickly as possible ,200 hours (probable 400) and used cheaper parts
that what you used , I am asking 10k OBO . 6 months and I have not gotten
one best offer. ( did get one scam off form south Africa and am still trying
to finger the scam ) .
The best luck I have had selling EV's was when I had a city car or sale
at 2k , When people came by to see it I took them for a ride in it then took
them for a ride in the conversions . I sold my mercury lynx 120v for $3500
which was the price of the parts, and the 72v hyndi for 2k which was the car
I raffled off (sold 100 tickets for $10 each and took 2 years to do it) and
the winner wanted me to see it . These were the first people to come along
also. The city car belonged to St Lucia battery and while talking to the
big guy I found out that he didn't want to sell it and did not even know I
was selling it ( manager had told me to sell it for 2k ) .
Would you take payments ? This way somebody could try it and then when
the EV bug bits them and they fall deeply in love with it you'll have a
steady income. The problem of course is that they may not treat it right.
This way has relieved me of 2 EV's but have not seen much in the monthly
payments. This would be good for the cause but if your looking for real
money I don't recommend it .
With such a past can you believe I converting another just to sell ( the
Toyota tercel ) .
> I used top quality parts for the conversion. The
> controller is a DCP T-600, the DC-DC converter is also DCP, ADC 9" motor,
> 240V system with 20 Optima YTs, NG5 charger and 19 PowerCheqs. The EV
photo
> album has some pictures. I'd really appreciate any advice on how to price
> it. I've looked on Ebay and the Trading Post sites, but couldn't get a
feel
> for how to price it.
half the cars on the trading post are give a ways and they still take a
while to sell. I get sick everytime I look and if I see your car for less
than 15k I just might roll over and die. (joking)
How long is this going to go on?
Steve Clunn
> Thanks again,
>
> John Lentz
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Hi Peter and All,
>The brushes are set stock to neutral for
>reversing and regen and the power/eff are with the
>brushes in neutral they say. Looking at my e-tek it
>has to be modified a lot to change the timing though
>it can be moved a little by shifting the magnets.
If the brushes are set for neutral timing then efficiency is NOT over 90%,
check your manual. These are a cheaper version of the Lemco motor and I
seriously doubt that they have better performance than a Lemco. The Lemco
maxes out at 91% on 48V and the documentation for it states that this high
efficiency can only be attained by advancing the brushes.
>The low 48vdc helps a lot I believe. This
>allows a low cost batt pack too and good power, 9hp
>cont and 20hp peak per motor.
Where are you getting the 9hp figure from? The online material states a
maximum of 7hp at 120 amps. At that point on the torque chart efficiency
looks like about 87-88%
If you add some external cooling you could possibly get 9hp continuous (that
requires 180 amps!!!) but efficiency drops some more, looks like 86% or so.
>quanities. For under 2000 lb EV's with 2 motors it's a
>good deal. If something does break it's not so costly
Perhaps, but even with two E-teks this is significantly less power than the
standard setup. The stock Sparrow setup can produce 30hp continuous and
over 120hp maximum. Two E-teks can produce 14 hp continuous (less than 1/2)
and 30 hp Maximum (about 1/4 the power).
Might work but it would be a serious performance hit for the Sparrow,
whether or not that is acceptable is up to the owner.
>What does IIRC mean?
If I Recall Correctly
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A better, less costly would be 1 or 2
> E-teks
> > with a Sevcon controller with regen, controller
> bypass
> > switch gives you great eff, good power at under
> > $1,100.
> > 90% eff for the motors and 95% eff for the
> > controller will be about the same eff as an AC
> unit
> > would. Add regen and buddy pair the largest
> ni-cads
> > you can fit in it and may do what range you need
> John.
> > No cold weather problems either.
>
> Small problem. E-tek's need to have the brush
> timing set to neutral if
> you are going to do regen. When you set the brushes
> to neutral your
> efficiency drops quite a bit (around 5% IIRC).
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Anyway at a weight of 21.5lbs per I have a hard time believing that 2 of
>>them will even come close to what the ADC does when climbing hills at slow
>>speeds. You could increase the ratio between the motor and the drive wheel
>>but that may limit your top speed to less then is needed. Or maybe 2 or 3
>>motors with a series/parallel shift setup.
>>
>>John, do you know what kind of current your ADC motor sees now, not
battery
>>current?
>
>All I know is what the EMeter says. Most of the longish uphills I run in
>the 150A range, at 150V or so. (8" ADC, changing the drive ratio to
>anything larger would be quite difficult.)
In which case two E-teks won't be enough. That works out to about 26 hp
(output), to produce this much power from E-teks would require them to run
at about 240 amps which they can only do for a couple minutes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess a thing to do is keep it small and use a PFC. Under an hour on
something like a 72v pack. Guess the next project will be very small.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 22:13, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > > This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it?
> Lawrence Rhodes....
> > >
> http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news-fordevfastchr
> g.html
> >
> > the major problem is simply getting the power to the charger.
> Assuming
> > the batteries and charger total 80% efficient that means you
> have to put
> > over 56kw into the pack for 20 minutes.
> > that's 255 amps at 220V.
> >
> > That's more than twice what the average household power panel
> is rated
> > for.
>
> Seems like high-power Level III(+) charging would be in the
> domain of fast-fill service stations with industrial-level power
> feeds. I would think that the charger equipment (AC -> DC -
> maybe Rich could supply this equipment) would be in a stand, much
> like the inductive Magnacharger box. (The vehicle's on-board
> charging equipment for Level II and below would be switched out
> of the circuit.) Have a wide-open DC connection and pour the
> juice in. (Can Avcon do DC? - I know it has a couple of extra
> connections for high power, but those are probably AC.)
> Communications between the vehicle and the charging stand control
> the charging rate. One or two of these fast-fill stations in
> some gas stations scattered around the area would certainly do
> wonders for "charging infrastructure". That way if one service
> station's charging "pumps" were broken, you could go down the
> road a mile or two and try another station with minimal
> inconvenience, just like with gas cars. But this was discussed
> years ago, and we don't seem to be any closer to it now...
>
> Hey, does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going to happen
> with the current charging infrastructure now that all the
> production vehicles are gone. I don't like where I end up with
> that; maybe somebody can inject some cheering thoughts on this
> into my soul...
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 06:20:51PM -0800, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/think_ev/message/1989
>
> IMHO an interesting POST that shows an EV group that is
> going to make a strong effort, and would not mind your
> support.
I think what would make a good impression would be for all the people
who tried to get an EV1 or EV+ or Ford Ranger or whatever and couldn't
to go tell their stories, along with all the people who've had them
taken away without even the option to buy them out. If there were enough
of those there, it would yank the "no one wants them" argument right out.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> I went to the grocery store, and when I put the groceries on the seat,
> the vinyl split from the cold; it was as brittle as ice. The plastic
> body also shrunk so it was tight as a drum (usually loose and floppy on
> CitiVehicles), and it cracked in several places.
Just love to hear experiences with quality hardware....
Thanks Lee,
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> An EV purchase is a commitment of ownership. You
> have to drive it for years to get your money's
> worth. The nice thing about an EV, replace the pack
> and you have a new vehicle.
Sorry Bruce - you'll have an old vehicle well capable of running for
as long as new one, but not a new vehicle. There is a BIG difference.
If this is relevant or not for particular individual is second
question, but the fact remains - *old* vehicle, running like new.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:03 PM
> To: EV
> Subject: Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
>
>
> On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 22:13, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it? Lawrence
> > Rhodes....
> >
> http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news->
fordevfastchrg.htm
> > l
>
> the major problem is simply getting the power to the charger.
> Assuming the batteries and charger total 80% efficient that
> means you have to put over 56kw into the pack for 20 minutes.
> that's 255 amps at 220V.
>
> That's more than twice what the average household power panel
> is rated for.
>
Yes, but... what would it take to make a "dump charger with manners"
using a modest motor controller and a 2nd battery pack too weak for the
vehicle but good enough to bring your SOC from 20% to 80%?
1. a pair of contactors and fuses
2. cooling system for the controller
3. Automatic shut-off at prescribed voltage
4. ?
Stretch it a little further and you could use the on-board controller if
you don't mind the extra baggage. On second thought maybe that should be
essential for economic reasons...
- GT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All -
I have been experimenting with Peter Ohler's great software for the
PalmOS which lets a Palm hook up to an Emeter. I made a few graphs of
me driving my truck around and I thought some of you might be
interested in seeing them.
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/serialfun/serial_fun.html
Enjoy,
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
George Tylinski wrote:
> Yes, but... what would it take to make a "dump charger with manners"
> using a modest motor controller and a 2nd battery pack too weak for the
> vehicle but good enough to bring your SOC from 20% to 80%?
>
> 1. a pair of contactors and fuses
> 2. cooling system for the controller
> 3. Automatic shut-off at prescribed voltage
> 4. ?
>
> Stretch it a little further and you could use the on-board controller if
> you don't mind the extra baggage. On second thought maybe that should be
> essential for economic reasons...
Thai's how it's done in T-zero - inverter fed backwards (3 phases AC in)
to act as a charger, I believe 100A DC out rate.
But, indeed to have to have at least 150A rms 3 phase available.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
>
> Hi All -
>
> I have been experimenting with Peter Ohler's great software for the
> PalmOS which lets a Palm hook up to an Emeter. I made a few graphs of
> me driving my truck around and I thought some of you might be
> interested in seeing them.
>
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/serialfun/serial_fun.html
>
> Enjoy,
>
> Seth
Thanks Seth,
This plot look similar to what I have - application plot
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/acrx4b.gif
And delimited imported into excel:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/current_voltage.gif
My plots are for LiIon cells, but same as as you observe, voltage
plot is inverted current plot. If I flip Y axis for the
current trace and overlap it with voltage one (scaled appropriately),
they are just overlap each other almost perfectly - indication of
stable internal resistance regardless of the load.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Jan 2003 at 11:07, VanDerWal, Peter MSgt wrote:
> In which case two E-teks won't be enough.
I suppose I could be called biased, but I think the best idea yet is one of
Victor's drives. Between the regen and the efficiency tweak, you'll have a
somewhat better chance of making your commute goal. And while I know some
here disagree, I just think that AC induction drives nicer than series DC.
(Sepex DC would probably be comparable.)
You might try running it at 156 volts, but you'll probably need higher
voltage. Victor is the expert, ask him.
Batteries: have you looked into Hawkers yet? They come in odd shapes and
sizes, not BCI standard, and you might be able to cram in just the right
voltage and capacity to run a ~300 volt AC drive. Note that Hawkers have
their own quirks; in particular, they seem to crave at least a little high
current charging for best life and capacity.
Also, is there any chance of modifying those battery boxes on the Sparrow?
This may be very difficult or even impossible (which takes a little longer
<g>). I can't guess, as I've never seen a Sparrow in the flesh ... er,
plastic.
One more thought. Has anybody suggested towing a small trailer carrying an
extra battery pack? The ideal is a pack identical to the one you have, of
course, but that's probably not going to happen. A pack of Hawker G26EP
would weigh under 300 lb (add something for the trailer itself) and give you
about 3.3kw more capacity (1-hr rate). These batteries are about 167mm x
176mm x 126mm. The larger G42EP would weigh 430lb + trailer and add 5.3kwh.
Each module is 197 x 166 x 171mm.
When you don't neeed the extra capacity, you just leave the trailer at home.
Of course I doubt that Corbin would approve of towing a trailer and there
might be some handling issues, but it's an old reliable method of getting
more capacity when you can't squeeze any more lead into the car itself.
(Olaf Bleck's team won a TdS a couple years ago this way.)
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if these ideas were already stated!
Isn't there a Zapi controller that gives regen on a series DC motor?
(If not, you may be able to have your field rewound and get their
sepex controller.)
Then you would not have to fuss with motor replacement, and the regen
might be just the efficiency gain you need to make your trip. You
might need to rewire the back into 2 parallel groups, the Zapis go to
96 or 120 Volts.
Is your motor timed most efficiently? I recall posts saying Sparrows
were timed neutral, but a few degrees is more efficient. (Changing
the timing may not be compatible with regen.)
Another idea: Hawker sells single cylindrical cells. You should be
able to pack more weight in batteries this way.
=====
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Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Isn't there a Zapi controller that gives regen on a series DC motor?
> (If not, you may be able to have your field rewound and get their
> sepex controller.)
There is but there are several problems with regen and a series wound
motor. If the motor doesn't have interpoles (most don't) then you need
to set the brush timing to neutral which lowers efficiency and can cause
brush arcing at high currents.
Also I think the Zapi regen controllers that are currently available
only go up to 96V.
>
> Then you would not have to fuss with motor replacement, and the regen
> might be just the efficiency gain you need to make your trip. You
> might need to rewire the back into 2 parallel groups, the Zapis go to
> 96 or 120 Volts.
>
On series wound motors regen doesn't generally give you any extra
range. Mostly because you loose efficiency from the brush settings and
because the round trip efficiency tends to be fairly low anyway. At
best you can expect to get maybe 40% of the extra energy you put in
while accelerating or climbing hills. The energy used to move you down
to road is always irretrievably lost.
> Is your motor timed most efficiently? I recall posts saying Sparrows
> were timed neutral, but a few degrees is more efficient. (Changing
> the timing may not be compatible with regen.)
>
I thought that was just a couple of the early ones and they fixed it,
but I might be wrong again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Last thing - any guess for a rolling resistance (with and without
> trailer) of this 8 ton beast.
Assuming you are looking for a coefficient, How does 0.015 sound?
>
> Do you have any performance numbers for single or dual DC motors?
> Like time to 10 mph, 30 mph and 50 mph on flat, and max grade it
> can handle on each gear (with/without trailer)?
I have some spread sheets and of course Uve's web site. Should be able
to come up with a reasonable approximation.
What kind of grades were you thinking of? Say 0%, 3% and 5% to keep it
simple or do you want to do 1% to 7% in 1% increments?
> So we have base line to compare to. I'll do simulation for double
> string of 28 optimas, you come up with numbers for 14 optima
> quadruplets (168V nom, better suitable for DC). Wh stored is equal.
>
Sounds good.
> Also let's do the range calc for say 50 mph unloaded and 40 mph
> fully loaded. Fair? If you want other conditions, please specify.
>
Fair enough, also calculate maximum speed up an incline for whichever
grades you choose.
> I think list would benefit knowing results of both options.
> Since mail limiting factor here is battery, the choice of the
> system won't have as much impact as one could expect, but will see.
> No more guesses.
>
Only thing is that I can't give accurate acceleration figures. The math
to do it properly and the programming code derived from it makes my
head hurt :-(.
I can estimate it by calculating for a constant HP, but that's not
really accurate.
--- End Message ---
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
gail wrote:
> How are you doing on your double Axel?
Is that what those accidental twirling jumps and stuff I kept
doing were called? ...didn't even try it, that's your turf. :)
> And did you take pictures for next years Christmas cards?
I've shot some video of my EV at it's new home, I'll
be sending a picture to Mike Chancey to put in the photo
album before too long and will let you know when it's there.
Long ago someone requested that everyone send a picture to Mike
of themselves to post with their EV, so we could see what we all
look like. All I had was a silly one where I was scared to death
while riding a rollercoaster in Fabulous Las Vegas. Now it's time
to upgrade that to something more reasonable, so I got a shot of
myself and the EV in the snow on a bright, sunny day.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Corbin on their website says they have fitted two Sparrows with AC drives
and that the drives work well. The site also
says that 100 more motors and controllers have been ordered.
Someday we may find out details of this system and how it
performs. Maybe the Sparrow AC drive system might
serve as an example of how to update the existing Sparrows
to AC or for an AC system for other small cars.
Tom Shay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 4:41 PM -0800 1/24/03, David Dymaxion wrote:
Is your motor timed most efficiently? I recall posts saying Sparrows
were timed neutral, but a few degrees is more efficient. (Changing
the timing may not be compatible with regen.)
This brings up a question,
How efficient is your Sparrow?
I know that most EVs that are out there are capable of at least a 20%
improvement in efficiency with relatively minor mods. Things
including brush timing (most all Sparrows were wrong on this), tire
type and pressure, alignment, brake tuning, and the like. I know my
EV can use some improvement once I make the time to work on it.
Also, Bob Schneeveis has a Sparrow which he is outfitting with two
E-Tek motors in front wheel drive. He's also reducing the pack size
and thinking about hybrid gas drive in the rear. I think we'll all be
curious to see how it performs.
How much do you use your brakes on your route?
I have done extensive work with series regen controllers and find
that overall it gives you 8 to 15% increase in range for around town
and mixed use. Highway use gives no regen benefit of course. I
suspect that regen with PM motors would be closer to AC drive
efficiency which can increase range 20% in lead acid vehicles.
HTH,
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Z2K controller, now available.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm on that other coast so I don't have much to do with CARB, but...
this still frustrates me... to think that there are parking lots full of
production EVs that "they" refuse to sell, at the same time that I'd
love to be able to buy a production electric truck, like the NiMH
Ranger. Since "they" refuse to sell 'em, I've been trying to figure out
how to do a high-end conversion, but just can't seem to find the right
combination of parts yet. Grrr...
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> See
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/think_ev/message/1989
>
> IMHO an interesting POST that shows an EV group that is
> going to make a strong effort, and would not mind your
> support.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
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I don't think that towing a battery trailer behind a
Sparrow has been discussed here before. My
first thought was that the idea was absurd, but
maybe it isn't. A two wheel trailer and the right
coupling arrangement might add stability to the
Sparrow somewhat like training wheels do on a
child's bicycle.
Maybe Bob Shneeveis could be persuaded to
design a Sparrow trailer setup. And maybe some
daredevil could be persuaded to test drive it.
What a concept-- training wheels on a Sparrow!
Tom Shay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: E-teks for Sparrows
> One more thought. Has anybody suggested towing a small trailer carrying
an
> extra battery pack? The ideal is a pack identical to the one you have, of
> course, but that's probably not going to happen. A pack of Hawker G26EP
> would weigh under 300 lb (add something for the trailer itself) and give
you
> about 3.3kw more capacity (1-hr rate). These batteries are about 167mm x
> 176mm x 126mm. The larger G42EP would weigh 430lb + trailer and add
5.3kwh.
> Each module is 197 x 166 x 171mm.
>
> When you don't neeed the extra capacity, you just leave the trailer at
home.
>
> Of course I doubt that Corbin would approve of towing a trailer and there
> might be some handling issues, but it's an old reliable method of getting
> more capacity when you can't squeeze any more lead into the car itself.
> (Olaf Bleck's team won a TdS a couple years ago this way.)
>
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Seth, dude, where are the regen figures? (sorry)
Here's a link to a graph made last summer on a freeway trip to a client's,
about 45 miles one-way:
http://www.mrsharkey.com/evgfx/kgal.gif
The noteworthy features of this chart are that I was using my Pusher
trailer, so once I attained freeway speed, I moderated the usage of battery
power by providing power from the pusher, and even used the excess power
available from the trailer to recharge the batteries some. Since I had
charging facilities available at my destination, and ample time to charge
while I worked, I only used the regen feature to lightly recharge that
batteries while on the road. Normally, I'd shut down the electric drive
once I had merged with traffic and didn't need the extra power that
parallel operation provides.
The large positive (150+ amp) current spikes are the result of downshifting
while exiting freeway ramps, adjusting for traffic speed, etc.
Martin Jackson provided some amazing insights given the raw data out of the
e-meter for this and subsequent trips. There's a ~lot~ more data that can
be extrapolated from mere amps and volts, more than I understand, really.
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Last thing - any guess for a rolling resistance (with and without
> > trailer) of this 8 ton beast.
>
> Assuming you are looking for a coefficient, How does 0.015 sound?
Regular car (not LRR tires) usually has it 0.01. A trailer will add
0.005 if it has two wheels (one axle) and single wheel on each side
(not double wheels like those on the rear axle of a school bus, not
sure what is it called). Id the wheels are doubles, i.e. four tires
touch the ground, or there are two axles on the trailer, I'm afraid
it will be 0.02 - twice as bad as without trailer.
Let's do 0.015, this seem reasonable.
> What kind of grades were you thinking of? Say 0%, 3% and 5% to keep it
> simple or do you want to do 1% to 7% in 1% increments?
I'll give the angle in degrees, not percentages which is I believe
US invention. So 45 degrees equal 100% and we need to convert one to
another. At small angles (<5 deg) we can assume
US%=100*sin(alpha) where alpha is real geometrical road angle. So,
1 deg = 1.745 % grade,
2 deg = 3.49 % grade,
3 deg = 5.234 % grade.
So these grades you have to enter in Uve's calc or whatever software
you're using.
> > Also let's do the range calc for say 50 mph unloaded and 40 mph
> > fully loaded. Fair? If you want other conditions, please specify.
>
> Fair enough, also calculate maximum speed up an incline for whichever
> grades you choose.
OK, will do for 1,2 and 3 degrees.
> > I think list would benefit knowing results of both options.
> > Since mail limiting factor here is battery, the choice of the
> > system won't have as much impact as one could expect, but will see.
> > No more guesses.
> >
>
> Only thing is that I can't give accurate acceleration figures. The math
> to do it properly and the programming code derived from it makes my
> head hurt :-(.
> I can estimate it by calculating for a constant HP, but that's not
> really accurate.
My results are very accurate in terms of reflecting Siemens system
and battery model. It will only give significant an error if you
feed wrong data in. Like every 0.001 off of the rolling coeff adds 10%
to the error. But, as long as we assume the *same* values, even
if absolute numbers will be off, it allows meaningful relative
AC/DC setups comparison like better/worse and by how much (ratio).
Give me a couple of days.
Victor
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Thai's how it's done in T-zero - inverter fed backwards (3 phases AC in)
to act as a charger, I believe 100A DC out rate.
Actually, it's 80 amps max.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
--- "VanDerWal, Peter MSgt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >Hi Peter and All,
> >The brushes are set stock to neutral for
> >reversing and regen and the power/eff are with the
> >brushes in neutral they say. Looking at my e-tek it
> >has to be modified a lot to change the timing
> though
> >it can be moved a little by shifting the magnets.
>
> If the brushes are set for neutral timing then
> efficiency is NOT over 90%,
I never said over 90%. Really about 89% in the
graphs. Picky, picky, picky!!! ;-))
Like Otmar said, about 20% more eff, range than
the stock Sparrow set-up including controller, regen
YMMV.
> check your manual. These are a cheaper version of
> the Lemco motor and I
> seriously doubt that they have better performance
> than a Lemco. The Lemco
> maxes out at 91% on 48V and the documentation for it
> states that this high
> efficiency can only be attained by advancing the
> brushes.
Maybe they learned something in the 10 years in
between designs, you think. There have been metal and
magnet advances since then. Maybe my graph is wrong
from EV Parts but I'll go by it.
>
> >The low 48vdc helps a lot I believe. This
> >allows a low cost batt pack too and good power, 9hp
> >cont and 20hp peak per motor.
>
> Where are you getting the 9hp figure from? The
> online material states a
> maximum of 7hp at 120 amps. At that point on the
My e-tek is stamped on it's alum housing 150
amps cont. That rates out at 7.5kw which at 820
watts/hp works out to 9.1hp at 50 vdc each.
Peak is 330 amps which comes to 16.5kw = 18.33hp
at 900watt/hp times 2 motors. A lot faster than many
EV's in a Sparrow.
> torque chart efficiency
> looks like about 87-88%
Looks like 89% to me.
>
> If you add some external cooling you could possibly
> get 9hp continuous (that
> requires 180 amps!!!) but efficiency drops some
> more, looks like 86% or so.
See above. Where do you get 180 amps for 9hp?
It's not a series motor.
It uses centrifical force for cooling air flow.
I'll add a box fan to it because of the direct drive
but it probably won't need it. I like good cooling
when moving slow or stopped.
>
> >quanities. For under 2000 lb EV's with 2 motors
> it's a
> >good deal. If something does break it's not so
> costly
>
> Perhaps, but even with two E-teks this is
> significantly less power than the
> standard setup. The stock Sparrow setup can produce
> 30hp continuous and
While it can produce that kind of power it can't
handle that much and has the controllers turned down
to keep them safe so the extra power is a waste.
With 2 motors at 18 hp cont, 36.6hp peak, The
e-tecs will do very well on the Sparrow topping 80 mph
with some hp left over for hills. I'd gear for 70 mph
for more pick-up, eff.
We were looking for more range, not faster drag
racing.
> over 120hp maximum. Two E-teks can produce 14 hp
> continuous (less than 1/2)
> and 30 hp Maximum (about 1/4 the power).
> Might work but it would be a serious performance hit
> for the Sparrow,
> whether or not that is acceptable is up to the
> owner.
See above. Also PMs make better power at higher
rpms when you need it where series drops off fast.
>
> >What does IIRC mean?
> If I Recall Correctly
Thanks and to others who clued me in.
Other posts,
For rpm the e-tek should be limited to 4000rpm
though racers do 6,000rpm, 72vdc with it but I want
reliability.
Zapi's are expensive and need extra contactors
for regen raising weight, cost,lowering reliability.
Victor's AC unit wouldn't fit in a Sparrow if
you tried. Just not going to happen.
Maybe Madman's little AC unit would if it
becomes available. If it does I may switch to it.
For nicads, cells will have to do then still
giving you a 25% range increase and more in winter.
I wouldn't try a trailer on a Sparrow for
handling reasons.
jerry dycus
>
>
> --- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > A better, less costly would be 1 or 2
> > E-teks
> > > with a Sevcon controller with regen, controller
> > bypass
> > > switch gives you great eff, good power at under
> > > $1,100.
> > > 90% eff for the motors and 95% eff for the
> > > controller will be about the same eff as an AC
> > unit
> > > would. Add regen and buddy pair the largest
> > ni-cads
> > > you can fit in it and may do what range you need
> > John.
> > > No cold weather problems either.
> >
> > Small problem. E-tek's need to have the brush
> > timing set to neutral if
> > you are going to do regen. When you set the
> brushes
> > to neutral your
> > efficiency drops quite a bit (around 5% IIRC).
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--- Begin Message ---
George Tylinski wrote:
> what would it take to make a "dump charger with manners" using a
> modest motor controller and a 2nd battery pack too weak for the
> vehicle but good enough to bring your SOC from 20% to 80%?
1. The batteries for your dump pack (about 10% higher voltage than
the pack in your car).
2. An AC charger for these batteries (could be small; can take all day).
3. Meter so you can tell their state of charge (E-meter is great, but
just a voltmeter is adequate).
4. Charge controller. Could be as simple as a big contactor and a
voltage sensor that cuts it off when your EV batteries reach a
safe level around 80-90% charged. Or, you could use a PWM controller
and inductor (even the one already in the car and the motor's field)
and implement a proper multi-step charging algorithm.
5. Safety circuits, just in case something goes wrong.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
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EVLN(JOBS: GEM Engineer; EV experience not required)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
US-MI-Auburn Hills-Engineers :.
Status: Full Time, Temporary/Contract/Project, Employee
Reference Code: 12530I
Job Location: Auburn Hills
DESCRIPTION: Candidate will utilize automotive experience
and adapt to many aspects of design and engineering
development on new or improved features on Neighborhood
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Also, there is a possibility that the candidate may be
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REQUIRED SKILLS:
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PREFERRED SKILLS:
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Contact Information :.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ASG Renaissance
Fax: 313-565-4712
===
US-OR-Statewide-Electronics Systems Engineering Manager
International Electric Vehicle Manufacturer is searching for
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Status: Full Time, Employee Reference Code: motors
ELECTRIC MOTOR DEVELOPER SEEKS TECHNICAL TALENT
A leading developer of electric vehicle technology and
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Status: Temporary/Contract/Project Reference Code: 210066
Job Location: Troy 48083
Ref Code: 3397-32073-KW
SEE BELOW
Required Skills
Automotive BackgroundMechanical Engineering
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COMMUNICATION SKILLS
LOTUS NOTES
MS OFFICE SUITE
Optional Skills
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Minimum Experience
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Assignment Details
Utilize automotive experience and adapt to many aspects of
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Thank you for your interest in a career opportunity with
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Contact Information :.
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Ph: (248)526-0311
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===
US-NY-Statewide-Direct Sales Professional :.
Status: Full Time, Part Time, Temporary/Contract/Project
Salary: Independent Contractor Reference Code: DSPNY
Job Location: Statewide
Direct Sales Professional
The Ultra Light Vehicle Division of Electric Mobility
Corporation, home of the world famous Rascal Scooter has an
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US-CO-Boulder/Fort Collins-Senior Embedded Software Engineer
Status: Full Time, Employee
UQM Technologies Company Profile
UQM Technologies (UQM) is an innovative, aggressive, leading
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Job Description
Senior Embedded Software Engineer
Develop embedded software for TI DSP incorporating an RTOS
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Qualifications
Must have BSEE with 5+ years experience in the software
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Please send resume to 7501 Miller Drive, Frederick, CO 80530
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Contact Information :.
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UQM Technologies
7501 Miller Drive
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