EV Digest 2555
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Controller and Charger needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Truck (im)possibility, Regen on ADCs.
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV talk/lawn mowers (battery electric landscaping) O.T.
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: LiIon purchase
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: How to price my EV for sale - plain text version
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) PFC-20 + RegBus = cool
by "Mark Dodrill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Ice Skating in Wonderland
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Range, Battery Heaters, etc...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Automakers are the next tobacco
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Tango battery thermal management (was: Aquarium Chillers)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Truck (im)possibility, Regen on ADCs.
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: E-teks for Sparrows, Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: E-teks for Sparrows, Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by Mason Convey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?) Selectria Dead
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: E-teks for Sparrows, Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?)
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: How to price my EV for sale
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Requesting NiZn Summary
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: How to price my EV for sale
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: AC Drives (Sparrow?) Selectria Dead
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Truck (im)possibility, Regen on ADCs.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 20 minute charge to 80%
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Looking for a decent 64 V controller ( 1209B?) that is good for 400 amps or
so and for another project a charger that is able to be automatically limited
to 8.5 amps @120 V DC output. Anyone have something like this to sell/trade,
please contact me. David Chapman.
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> On Wed, 2003-01-22 at 22:13, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> > This technology is 6 years old. What happened to it?
Lawrence Rhodes....
> >
http://www.aerovironment.com/news/news-archive/news-fordevfastchr
g.html
>
> the major problem is simply getting the power to the charger.
Assuming
> the batteries and charger total 80% efficient that means you
have to put
> over 56kw into the pack for 20 minutes.
> that's 255 amps at 220V.
>
> That's more than twice what the average household power panel
is rated
> for.
Seems like high-power Level III(+) charging would be in the
domain of fast-fill service stations with industrial-level power
feeds. I would think that the charger equipment (AC -> DC -
maybe Rich could supply this equipment) would be in a stand, much
like the inductive Magnacharger box. (The vehicle's on-board
charging equipment for Level II and below would be switched out
of the circuit.) Have a wide-open DC connection and pour the
juice in. (Can Avcon do DC? - I know it has a couple of extra
connections for high power, but those are probably AC.)
Communications between the vehicle and the charging stand control
the charging rate. One or two of these fast-fill stations in
some gas stations scattered around the area would certainly do
wonders for "charging infrastructure". That way if one service
station's charging "pumps" were broken, you could go down the
road a mile or two and try another station with minimal
inconvenience, just like with gas cars. But this was discussed
years ago, and we don't seem to be any closer to it now...
Hey, does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going to happen
with the current charging infrastructure now that all the
production vehicles are gone. I don't like where I end up with
that; maybe somebody can inject some cheering thoughts on this
into my soul...
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
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--- Begin Message ---
> > >> The main challenge is in finding a good place to couple
such a
> > >> generator or alternator to your motor...
> >
> >Chuck Hursch wrote:
> > > Yes, we looked at the generator idea some years ago, but
there is
> > > no tailshaft on my 8" ADC.
> >
Lee Hart wrote:
> >Here's an idea I've been thinking about for adding one. My ADC
motor
> >already has about 1/4" of shaft exposed, with a center hole at
the tail
> >end. That's not enough to mount any normal pulley or coupler.
> >
> >My thought is to hold a drill bit against it and run the motor
to drill
> >a hole. Tap this hole so a bolt can be inserted.
> >
> >Get a pulley with a center hole that is smaller than the
shaft. Have it
> >machined so it is a press fit over the stub of shaft, and then
use a
> >bolt in the center hole to pull it on. Now I should have a
pulley that
> >runs true, but won't be able to tranfer any torque.
> >
> >So, drill a few holes in the periphery, half in the pulley's
hub and
> >half in the motor shaft. Thread them, and drive in some set
screws to
> >lock the pulley and shaft together. This *should* lock the
pulley to the
> >shaft adequately so it can drive an alternator for regen or
accessory
> >battery charging.
>
Otmar wrote:
> Lee,
> I think this will work.
>
> A data point to consider here is how Bob Schneeveis mounts
things to
> ADC motor shafts. I used to think he was nuts, until I saw it
work
> so much, and he runs them hard with a Zilla.
>
> He makes a hub that fits over the shaft with about .002"
clearance.
> The tight fit is for alignment. The most important part is that
the
> hub is deep enough that the inside flange rests on the inner
bearing
> race for the motor shaft. The motor shaft should not bottom out
in
> the hub.
>
> The hub is bolted to the shaft with the stock 5/16 threaded
hole. He
> uses a Grade 8 bolt, a very thick washer and Locktite 271 on
the
> threads.
>
> He does use the keyway in both. But I've heard him say that
it's
> probably not needed in this case. It turns out that the
friction of
> the hub to the bearing race (and from the other side of the
race to
> the shaft again) is quite large when it is being pressed by a
grade 8
> 5/16 bolt at recommended torque.
>
> Bob always says that if you actually use the keyway, you're
likely to
> beat it up anyway.
>
> So, if I had 1/16" or more of shaft available for alignment, I
think
> I'd go ahead and try it without the key or setscrews.
>
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ New Z2K controller, now
available.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
Thanks Lee and Otmar - I'm definitely going to file this in the
email folder for my notes.
Assuming one managed to attach a pulley to the ADC shaft sitting
in the motor, there are two or three other things that one would
need to consider in a high-level view.
One is some kind of clutch to disengage the alternator and
(belt?) drive from the ADC motor. I understand alternators can
exert a significant drag, especially at high-rpms. (Good for
regen, bad for anything else, like coasting.) Any ideas on
clutches?
Need a high-voltage alternator to charge a pack. It'll be
passing a lot more power than for 12V accessory battery charging,
so there's a consideration in terms of cooling.
To keep things simple for a first-pass implementation, the driver
would be responsible for turning the "regen" on/off, and having
the car in the proper gear to not put it on its nose or blowing
up the alternator. But, hey, this is something you have to do
with a manual shift gas car anyways for downshifting on hills.
Mount the regen on/off button on the stickshift (like I've seen
in one or two EVs), which button would control the clutch.
Mike Slominski had a generator regen setup in his Rabbit with a
DC motor (GE?). It was very mild regen - oh, here's one of the
gotchas :-( - because the generator wasn't spinning very fast. I
suppose some pulley work might be able to deal with this issue.
His was mainly for show.
Cogged-tooth belt drive? What would be best? I don't think
there is enough room on my Rabbit to attach a clutch and
alternator to the end of the ADC. I think it would have to be
attached to a framemember up front of the motor, about one foot
away.
Are the bearings in an ADC going to be able to withstand the
sideways load exerted by a belt?
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > After almost mentioning this quite a few times, Steve's posting here
> > about hauling around two-stroke weed wackers (and other ICEs) to do
> > lawncare/landscaping with an EV has motivated me to finally bring up a
> > long held idea of having an electric lawncare/landscaping business.
> > Yes... the initial expense and engineering of a workable system would
> > be substantial, but could certainly be done with a little effort,
> > especially with a one person/one machine at a time type of operation.
I have been down sizing now for a while and am a one person one machine
business. First to go should be the two stroke weed wacker/ blower. along
this line I was thinking of a batterie belt I could were and plug in the
wacker/blower when I used them .Then when I get into the truck I could plug
myself in and charge while driving to the next job. I would need 10 min of
power and could recharge for 20min. Like any body who dose one job for a
long time I know what tools are good and whats not . The wacker I use is
about 13 lbs . weight is a real problem and thats why I'm thinking about the
batterie belt. awhile back I bought 120v worth of AA nicads (they came in
12v strings surpluss ) and tryed to run some motors on them but the hi amp
start up would blow somthing in the batterie conections . I put it all aside
for now.
> > Just think of the marketing hype! --
> >
> > *Clean and quiet and pollution free machines minimally affect the
> > customer's environment.
> >
> > * No smoke, no fumes, no burning of fossil fuels required to cut da
> > grass!
> >
> > *I would bet many would be willing to pay extra for this type of
service.
I point out to them that they are using a "green company " but few seem to
care. I belive if I told them that I drained my oil in my back yard to save
them money they say thats good.
> > You could adapt all the required machines to do this with a little
> > planning:
> >
> > Lawn Tractor, blower, string trimmer, hedge cutter, and push mower. (
> > may have to go with corded AC on some of these to save $)
This I don;t think will work as there are not outlets everwhere. haven't
used a push mower in years and I don't even have one now.
> > Have all the battery operated devices run at the same voltage for easy
> > dump charging from support vehicle pack.
or a little lower than the truck 120v so can charge fast.
> > OK... example support vehicle, (one drawback of this system is that
> > you would probably want to pull it with an ICE powered truck
Stop stop stop I'd rather drill my own teeth . No and I do me NO ice
powered truck. The best and I do mean best part of my job is that I get to
drive my EV all day long . Worst yet is having to hear all my friends saying
"so the ev didn't work out so well ect".
for many
> > reasons including _foremost_ weight, and the ability to recharge
> > while driving from job to job, might be doable in flat Florida with EV
> > tow rig if you can plug into most customers grid power and charge main
> > pack while working)
This I can do and do do .
> > inverters) could shore make for a quick turnaround between jobs :)
> >
> > I can think of many environmentally aware communities around the
> > country which could be a good starting place for this. Plugging into
> > the customer's 20A 120V service should be no problem with a semi-aware
> > customer. (costs them a few cents while you are there)
I use to do that and still do but now I mostly plug into one custermer's
dryer outlet per day (in the middel of the day)
and thats all I need.
> > You could start small, an electric lawn tractor, corded wacker and
> > blower could get cha goin'.
> > If you can make the whole mess including tow vehicle battery electric,
> > well... that should surely wow the crowd :^D
well It's a hard crowd to wow.
> >
> > OK everybody.... tell me why this won't work.
Steve talking to god while cutting grass.
" don't you think I could be doing something better with my time than this ,
I could be recycling gas cars or hooking up solar panels or maybe teaching
kids to play music.?? "
God
"No your doing just what needs to be done . The world is going straight to
hell and I want it to look good when it gets there. Don't worry about
running out of gas , at the speed we're going there is enough to make it.
"" (joke)
Steve Clunn
""hu?""
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
> >
> > My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
> >
> > Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
> > http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*.
> > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> All,
>
> If anyone seriously consider purchasing Thunder-sky 100 Ah LiIon cells,
> please contact me off list for possible group purchase. Note: at this
> point you come up with BMS solution on your own.
>
> Victor
Can I add that I'm working on a BMS, with per-cell bypass regulation. Will
make modules available if it's succesful, and if there's interest.
Regards,
Evan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The question is, "Do you want to _sell_ it? Or do you
want it to languish on the Trading Post for months
with only lookie-lous?
An EV really won't sell for more than about 6-7K,
if it's a fairly recent body style. Expect 2-5K if it
has all the bells & whistles, but is an older body
style.
Most EVers are scraping up the $$ to buy this as a
3rd car, before getting rid of the 2nd car.
Just my 0.02, based on watching my Rabbit and other
EVs.
--- jlentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello All,
>
>
> Sorry for the HTML version. I forgot to switch to
> plain text. Here is the
> message again.
>
>
> I need to sell my 1992 Saturn SL2 EV for financial
> reasons, and I'm trying
> to figure out what kind of price to set. I don't
> want to part the car out,
> since it is a functioning EV. I also don't want to
> give it to the Kidney
> Foundation, since I need the money sooner than a tax
> break (plus they would
> just scrap it, since they wouldn't know how to deal
> with it). Going through
> my receipts, I added up that the car cost 20K to
> build. This consists of 5K
> for the donor car (it is a very clean 1992 Saturn
> SL2) and 15K on parts and
> welding labor. I had the welding done
> professionally. I also am not paying
> myself anything for working on it. I realize that
> I'm probably not going to
> get out what I put into it, but I'd appreciate some
> input as to what would
> be a fair price to ask. I used top quality parts
> for the conversion. The
> controller is a DCP T-600, the DC-DC converter is
> also DCP, ADC 9" motor,
> 240V system with 20 Optima YTs, NG5 charger and 19
> PowerCheqs. The EV photo
> album has some pictures. I'd really appreciate any
> advice on how to price
> it. I've looked on Ebay and the Trading Post sites,
> but couldn't get a feel
> for how to price it.
>
> Thanks again,
>
> John Lentz
>
=====
Bob Bath, #2 VoltsRabbit; '02 9A mulch. Black & Decker mower
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/239.html
____
/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are
you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wanted to pass along a great experience I had with Rich's Beta PFC-20
charger I am borrowing to help my pack out. I purchased some RegBus cards
for some of my MK2 regulators when I purchased a new MK2, to replace one I
accidentally fried. I got myself some 6 wire cable, some connectors, and a
stripper/crimper, and connected up 2 of the new regs with RegBus. With
Rich's specific instructions, I also opened the Beta charger, and hooked up
the cable to the jack right on top (the production ones have this on the
outside.
Then, I followed the RegBus connection instructions to test out the "hot
regs" light on the charger, by shorting the J1 pin on each RegBus card, and
it worked! The charger shut off in response to this, just as I would expect
it to.
For the grand finale, I plugged everything in and let the charger go full
bore until the first RegBus went hot--as soon as the heat sink got to 180
deg F, the charger shut off, and the "hot regs" light went on. Just exactly
how I would expect it to work. Then, when the reg was down to about 140 deg
F a couple of minutes later, the charger turned back on. At no time did the
voltage go above 14.9 on the battery. Rich and Joe did an awesome job on it,
really, having it "just work". As I finished the charge cycle, the charger
cycled on and off, until the 146 volts, when the timer kicked in, and shut
it down normally.
I need to purchase more RegBus cards, so I can have one for all my MK2 regs,
but it is great to have this feature working. It's the first time I can
actually turn on the charger, and walk away, without having to check up on
it and turn it off manually.
Just awesome, I love it!
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
gail wrote:
> I wonder if an EV would function in the -40 degree temperatures
> we had in Alberta when I was going to school. My family had to
> plug the ICE in or it wouldn't start. Not sure I would want to
> tool around in my Citicar under those conditions.
I've driven my ComutaVan when it was as cold as -30 deg.F. The batteries
were at about +20 deg.F as they were in insulated boxes but with no
heaters. Range was cut in half, but it ran just fine. Electric motors
don't care about cold!
I went to the grocery store, and when I put the groceries on the seat,
the vinyl split from the cold; it was as brittle as ice. The plastic
body also shrunk so it was tight as a drum (usually loose and floppy on
CitiVehicles), and it cracked in several places.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Well, since I finally got the battery heaters in my Sparrow working
> properly this last weekend, today I make a short run (1 mile),
> charged the car again, and tried a longer run.
>
> Range sucks. Voltage plummeted abruptly at around 16 miles...
> Question: Since this pack has been sitting with little use for a
> couple of months (always kept charged! Usually with a float charge
> as well.) Do I need to run a set of break-in cycles again?
Yes. Lead-acid batteries are rather like people; they need exercise to
stay in shape. If you sat on your butt for 2 months, and then tried to
go out jogging, your range would be shot, too. Exercise them, and the
range will improve significantly.
I would not keep Optimas on a charger, unless you have some parasitic
load that would suck them dead. Their self-discharge rate is so low that
it is better to let them sit for many months at a time. I would just
disconnect any loads from them, and let them sit for 3-6 months, then
charge them normally. Repeat as necessary.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph wrote:
> Automobile exhaust is somewhat less healthful than second hand (or
> even first hand) cigarette smoke. If you want proof, just spend
> fifteen minutes in a closed garage with a smoker (or three), and
> then with a running automobile and have the forensic MD compare
> the results.
I take your point. However, modern car exhaust is quite a bit cleaner
than it used to be. You would probably not be dead after 15 minutes;
just very sick. The Hemlock society (a group that studies suicides)
reports that car exhaust is no longer an effective way to commit
suicide.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> These particular chargers are prototypes, designed to be as
>> versatile as possible for R&D purposes. To the best of my
>> knowldege, this is the most sophisticated battery charging
>> and management system ever put in an EV.
David (Battery Boy) Hawkins replied:
> What about the T-Zero system?
I think it just uses the AC motor controller as a charger, to provide
high power charging. The batteries are all charged in series, like any
normal EV. The battery management system can monitor individual battery
voltages, but can't do much about them if they are different.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is some online info I found a while back on modifying alternators, may
be of use.
http://www.mtmscientific.com/alternator.html
http://www.mtmscientific.com/rewind.html
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 2:19 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Truck (im)possibility, Regen on ADCs.
<< snip >>
> Need a high-voltage alternator to charge a pack. It'll be
> passing a lot more power than for 12V accessory battery charging,
> so there's a consideration in terms of cooling.
<< snip >>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:17 PM 1/23/2003 -0800, jerry dycus wrote:
Switch to ni-cad mono-blocks and add another
50/75%. Single cells will only give you about 25%
better range as they weigh more than ni-cad
mono-blocks. Of couse no range reduction from cold
weather is nice too.
One problem. Nobody makes a NiCd (Cell or Monoblock) that will fit in a
Sparrow.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just had a look at the EV Parts website. They have RPM specs for the Etek
at "6500 RPM Burst Speed". Did it not used to be 4000 RPM max? Or maybe I
am remembering wrong.
Anyway at a weight of 21.5lbs per I have a hard time believing that 2 of
them will even come close to what the ADC does when climbing hills at slow
speeds. You could increase the ratio between the motor and the drive wheel
but that may limit your top speed to less then is needed. Or maybe 2 or 3
motors with a series/parallel shift setup.
John, do you know what kind of current your ADC motor sees now, not battery
current?
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
+ Seems like high-power Level III(+) charging would be in the
+ domain of fast-fill service stations with industrial-level power
+ feeds.
Recovering the costs would take a long time with so few EVs on the
road (and scattered far apart). That's why you're only seeing
companies like Aero and eTec do it in industrial/fleet applications
right now. In those cases, the end users can save money month after
month by going from gas/diesel to fast-charged electric drives.
+ Can Avcon do DC?
It most certainly can. eTec in particular used the Avcon for DC
fast-charging for quite a while at rates of several hundred amps. Its
downfall was the fact that people kept beating the crap out of the
Avcon connectors. Then it was time for something a little more
idiot-proof. ;)
-~-~- mason s. convey -~-~-
website. http://www.1opossum.com
email. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
AOL Messenger. mtnbikeAZ
Yahoo! Messenger. mtnbike_az
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
The brushes are set stock to neutral for
reversing and regen and the power/eff are with the
brushes in neutral they say. Looking at my e-tek it
has to be modified a lot to change the timing though
it can be moved a little by shifting the magnets.
That's how they set neutral at the factory.
It's 1 reason for this motor, unlike most
series that need advanced settings and arc in reverse
when so set.
The low 48vdc helps a lot I believe. This
allows a low cost batt pack too and good power, 9hp
cont and 20hp peak per motor.
Add to that a controller that doesn't destroy
itself when rolling in reverse as some DC controllers
do, customer proof along with low costs in 100 lot
quanities. For under 2000 lb EV's with 2 motors it's a
good deal. If something does break it's not so costly
to replace and almost anyone could replace them,
saving more cash.
It also protects the E-Teks from overcurrent
hurting the PM's, brushes.
When building an EV to sell you have to look
at all the ways to save money, weight and add
reliability, eff, safety.
Or you end up like the Selectria Sunrise, an
overpriced, never to be built EV because corps can't
think outside the box enough to bring a reasonable
priced EV to us. They wanted $55,000 for a $30,000 EV.
Yeah, after they heard that it would be a
co-op financing they stopped talking. Too bad for them
as it would be $1M a year or more in their pockets
from non-performing assets, go figure.
So I'll just keep plugging along with the
Freedom EV, financing it myself by pumping out 1/400th
of the US's oil supply from oil tankers, how's that
for irony. We really need a $12/16k, 100 mile range,
70 mph EV for everyday people.
The co-op way is a good idea and I hope
someone else picks it up.
What does IIRC mean?
jerry dycus
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A better, less costly would be 1 or 2
> E-teks
> > with a Sevcon controller with regen, controller
> bypass
> > switch gives you great eff, good power at under
> > $1,100.
> > 90% eff for the motors and 95% eff for the
> > controller will be about the same eff as an AC
> unit
> > would. Add regen and buddy pair the largest
> ni-cads
> > you can fit in it and may do what range you need
> John.
> > No cold weather problems either.
>
> Small problem. E-tek's need to have the brush
> timing set to neutral if
> you are going to do regen. When you set the brushes
> to neutral your
> efficiency drops quite a bit (around 5% IIRC).
>
>
>
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At 09:43 AM 1/24/2003 -0600, Andre Blanchard stated:
Anyway at a weight of 21.5lbs per I have a hard time believing that 2 of
them will even come close to what the ADC does when climbing hills at slow
speeds. You could increase the ratio between the motor and the drive wheel
but that may limit your top speed to less then is needed. Or maybe 2 or 3
motors with a series/parallel shift setup.
John, do you know what kind of current your ADC motor sees now, not battery
current?
All I know is what the EMeter says. Most of the longish uphills I run in
the 150A range, at 150V or so. (8" ADC, changing the drive ratio to
anything larger would be quite difficult.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
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Bob is right. The price he mentioned is the going price
for a used conversion (whether it is one day or years
old).
I have experience selling the Escort I brought from
Green Motorworks to keep in the SF area
http://brucedp.150m.com/escort/
...
The biggest problem I see is poorly worded EV ads.
Some ads go on and on about every single thing,
getting too caught up in the techie bit without
giving the basics like:
how fast, how far, how long to recharge, what type of
batteries and when they will need replacing.
The last bit tells of how much it will cost to replace
the pack. The going price and the cost of a new pack
is the true cost.
Some people don't even want to make the EV drivable
and complain when it does not sell. If it does not
run, then people will assume it is broken. No one
is going to want your headache. Either sell it with
1 year of life left in the pack or put a new pack in.
If your were selling an ICE, you would not say: it has
problems. You would say: runs but needs TLC.
The EV 'has to' be able to drive. There are very few
dead engine ICE for sale in my area. People will want
to drive it and try it out.
Fluff and puff
How many times have you heard of a used ICE business
slapping a new paint job on a used ICE, and sold it
quick before the engine falls out?
Short of being devious, clean up the EV, and take at
least three pictures: front / drivers side, interior,
and rear / passenger side.
Myself, I would also include:
under the hood, the trunk / cargo area, driver's
cluster, etc. If a person can see what they are
getting, they will feel better and more willing to
come out and kick the tires.
Getting the person behind the wheel is the selling
point. The human mind will fill the gaps of missing
information with doubt. It is a protection thing.
If you give all the info, then your serious buyer
hit rate will go up.
Having said all that, do not think you will get a
sale in one week.
Getting the word out is one factor, and who is
looking is the other.
Put your well worded ad with image thumbnails that
open to full view on all of the EV for sale sites
(see http://eaaev.org ). You can and have mentioned
it on the EV List, but the List tramples over
one-liners. Ebay and the ebay wannabe sites are
better. Being in the right place gets you noticed
(which is why your ad should be well designed).
Be ready to answer newbie questions. You will get
hits from people that need patience and help. If
you don't like repeating yourself, put most of
the basics in the ad.
But watch out for people that do not want to make
the time to know what their needs are. If you sell
the EV to them, they will be disappointed want to
return it, and you will have wasted time.
An EV purchase is a commitment of ownership. You
have to drive it for years to get your money's
worth. The nice thing about an EV, replace the pack
and you have a new vehicle.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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Fred Whitridge wrote:
> I visited the company last week and was impressed with the
> candor and the quality of the folks I met. They have
> apparently handbuilt a number of MB's in the lab in China and
> cycled these to their satisfaction. Now they are doing a run
> on their production line and once they are happy with these,
> they expect to begin volume production and shipment at the
> end of March time frame. The company looks to me as if they
> will be around for the long pull: they have $8mm of cash on
> the balance sheet, even after buying 100% of the Chinese
> venture. I remain keenly interested in getting a set for my
> VW Cabrio.
Hi Fred,
I've been following the progress on Evercels too. They show a lot of
promise. I have a concern about disposal that I raised here before but
no one had an answer, so I asked Evercel directly.
Elio Ferreira's response was:
"In general you should follow the disposal and recycling of batteries in
accordance to local rules and ordinances. The Evercel Ni-Zn battery is
environment friendly, the major components are Nickel and Zinc. It does
not have lead or cadmium. There are recycling facilities that will take
the battery to reclaim the nickel in the battery."
This tells me that most, if not all, Evercels will end up in a landfill,
at least for the near term. Evercel is trying hard to build batteries,
so I doubt they are directing any resources toward recycling. If anyone
has any leads on where you can take Evercels to get them recycled, that
would be very good information to have.
I'm not saying you shouldn't buy Evercels, only that any battery
technology that ends up in a landfill in great numbers is NOT what we're
looking for. Ignoring the issue of disposal is extremely short-sighted.
If you argue that we should develop the technology first and worry about
disposal later, you're following the nuclear industry model. How well
did that work? We need to ramp up disposal solutions right along with
functional solutions.
How do we close the loop and make NiZn truly viable? And of course, the
same questions apply to Lithium batteries as well.
Chris
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On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 10:47, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> The EV 'has to' be able to drive. There are very few
> dead engine ICE for sale in my area. People will want
> to drive it and try it out.
I agree that if the pack is close to dead, then put in a new one, if you
want a good price. A couple years back, I was looking at Nissan 300ZX
cars. I found two, one was perfect in every way, except for a blown
engine - the other was a little dinged, but ran perfect. The one with a
blown engine sold for $600, the other sold for $5000 - even though a
replacement motor could be had for "only" $1200.
So you should be able to recover the cost of the pack just due to making
so the purchaser doesn't have to deal with it. Of course, a highly
experienced EV person probably wouldn't care, but they still will expect
the discount.
Another thing to keep in mind is that it is a custom vehicle. Look in
the auto listings for modified ICEs. You'll see a lot of "$25,000 put
into project, letting go for $12,000". You never get back what you put
in with cash, part of your "return" for the investment must be the "joy"
of driving the conversion in the time before selling.
Just my 2V worth.....
Lonnie
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If the end caps where removed and the four slots (in each cap) were machined
so that the inside and outside surfaces around the slots were flat (the
inside most likely is already), and then the slots were machined out to a
precision width and radial dimension to match the threaded holes in the
magnet plates. The bolts could be replaced with large headed shoulder
bolts, such that the diameter of the shoulder was a sliding fit in the
machined slots, and the length of the shoulder was just a bit more then the
new thickness around the slots. A simple bracket could then be attached to
the heads of the shoulder bolts on each magnet plate around the side of the
motor. By moving this bracket the timing could be adjusted. That make any
cense.
May want to hard coat the end caps or mill the slots out a bit more and
press in steel inserts, if there is room.
These motors have more poles then the normal EV motors so the brushes do not
have to be moved as much, also requires a little more precision in the
adjustment.
Andre' B. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
If something cannot be defined, it does not exist.
Isaac Newton
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
Behalf Of jerry dycus
Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 10:24 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: AC Drives (Sparrow?) Selectria Dead
Hi Peter and All,
The brushes are set stock to neutral for
reversing and regen and the power/eff are with the
brushes in neutral they say. Looking at my e-tek it
has to be modified a lot to change the timing though
it can be moved a little by shifting the magnets.
That's how they set neutral at the factory.
<< snip >>
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Lee Hart wrote:
>>> Here's an idea for adding a tailshaft pulley to your traction motor, for driving
>an alternator, power steering pump, etc. My ADC motor has about 1/4" of shaft
>exposed, with a center hole at the tail end. That's not enough to mount any normal
>pulley or coupler.
>>> My thought is to hold a drill bit against it and run the motor to drill a hole.
>This insures that the hole is centered and straight (you'll feel it wobble if it's
>not). Tap this hole so a bolt can be inserted.
>>> Get a pulley with a center hole that is smaller than the shaft. Have it machined
>so it is a press fit over the stub of shaft, and then use a bolt in the center hole
>to pull it on. Now I should have a pulley that runs true, but won't be able to
>tranfer any torque.
>>> So, drill a few holes in the periphery, half in the pulley's hub and half in the
>motor shaft. Thread them, and drive in some set screws to lock the pulley and shaft
>together. This *should* lock the pulley to the shaft adequately so it can drive an
>alternator for regen or accessory battery charging.
Otmar Ebenhoech <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 1/23/03:
>> I think this will work. A data point to consider here is how Bob Schneeveis mounts
>things to ADC motor shafts. I used to think he was nuts, until I saw it work so well,
>and he runs them hard with a Zilla.
>> He makes a hub that fits over the shaft with about .002" clearance. The tight fit
>is for alignment. The most important part is that the hub is deep enough that the
>inside flange rests on the inner bearing race for the motor shaft. The motor shaft
>should not bottom out in the hub.
>> The hub is bolted to the shaft with the stock 5/16 threaded hole. He uses a Grade 8
>bolt, a very thick washer and Locktite 271 on the threads.
>> He does use the keyway in both. But I've heard him say that it's probably not
>needed in this case. It turns out that the friction of the hub to the bearing race
>(and from the other side of the race to the shaft again) is quite large when it is
>being pressed by a grade 8 5/16" bolt at recommended torque.
>> Bob always says that if you actually use the keyway, you're likely to beat it up
>anyway. So, if I had 1/16" or more of shaft available for alignment, I think I'd go
>ahead and try it without the key or setscrews.
I have a lot of respect for Bob's expertise! But without the keyway or
setscrews, I'd worry that I couldn't transmit much torque without the
pulley slipping on the shaft. The continuous torque might not be all
that high, but the peak could be if the motor is quickly accellerated or
decellerated.
Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 1/24/03:
> Assuming one managed to attach a pulley to the ADC shaft, there are two or three
>other things that one would need to consider in a high-level view.
> One is some kind of clutch to disengage the alternator (and belt?) drive from the
>ADC motor. I understand alternators can exert a significant drag, especially at
>high-rpms (good for regen, bad for anything else, like coasting). Any ideas on
>clutches?
Alternators spin very easily if there is no electrical load. Most of the
drag will come from the belt, plus some for the alternator's fan at high
rpm. I wouldn't bother with a clutch for an alternator.
If you were driving an air conditioner compressor or power steering
pump, then I'd consider a clutch. Of course, the compressor will already
have one.
> Need a high-voltage alternator to charge a pack. It'll be passing a lot more power
>than for 12V accessory battery charging, so there's a consideration in terms of
>cooling.
It depends on your pack voltage. Normal 12v alternators will go past
120v if you run the rpm and field current higher. 24v alternators are
available for trucks and buses that would let you get past 240v without
rewinding.
Obviously, you want one without the internal voltage regulator; you'd
use your own external regulator. You'd also want to replace the internal
diodes, or you'd be depending on luck for them to survive at 120v or
240v.
> To keep things simple for a first-pass implementation, the driver would be
>responsible for turning the "regen" on/off, and having the car in the proper gear to
>not put it on its nose or blowing up the alternator.
I think I'd try controlling it with the brake light switch on the brake
pedal. When you touch the brakes, it applies field current to the
alternator. A regulator circuit senses regen current, and controls field
current to get a fixed amount of regen current regardless of motor rpm.
With an alternator, you're only going to get mild amounts of regen
current anyway, so it won't throw you through the windshield.
> Cogged-tooth belt drive?
I'd think this would be more efficient than a v-belt, but alignment is
critical. Maybe a flat serpentine belt with half a dozen little
v-grooves?
> Are the bearings in an ADC going to be able to withstand the
> sideways load exerted by a belt?
I would think so. We shouldn't need a major amount of belt tension.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> The major problem is simply getting the power to the charger...
>> you have to put over 56kw into the pack for 20 minutes... more
>> than twice what the average household power panel is rated for.
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> Seems like high-power Level III(+) charging would be in the
> domain of fast-fill service stations with industrial-level power
> feeds.
There is an alternative. I like the idea of having a home dump-charger
setup. You have one set of batteries in your EV, and a second set in
your garage. This second set is on a float charger, which can take all
day to charge them. By including an inverter, they can also provide
emergency power for your house in case of a power outage.
To fast-charge your EV, you dump-charge it from this second pack. You
get a very fast charge, without requiring a high-power AC power feed.
> Hey, does anyone have any thoughts as to what is going to happen
> with the current charging infrastructure now that all the
> production vehicles are gone.
You *know* what will happen. They will all fall into disrepair, and get
ripped out. Nobody is going to pay to maintain them. By the time the
pendulum swings and we reach the next EV boom in 5-10 years, they will
all be consider "obsolete" and nobody will use them anyway.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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