EV Digest 2561
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: lead pollution
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: lead pollution
by beckettw <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: How a simple electric vehicle limits speed and ammeter limits.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Fw: How a simple electric vehicle limits speed and ammeter limits.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: lead pollution
by "Mike Pengelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) When NiCads go boom
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: long NiCad strings?
by "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) F250 Truck with AC system - no problem.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: F250 Truck with AC system - no problem.
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: F250 Truck with AC system - no problem.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Rolling resistance (was: Competition started (was Truck
(im)possibility))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: F250 Truck with AC system - no problem.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Rolling resistance (was: Competition started (was Truck (im)possibility))
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dump charger with no manners
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: old Rabbit for conversion in MA
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: How many miles in a day (WAS 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Gordon Niessen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Controller and Charger needed
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: How many miles in a day (WAS 20 minute charge to 80%)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: When NiCads go boom
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: F250 Truck with AC system - no problem.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Fun with EV's
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
GreenVW wrote:
I recall reading an article which disputed the Carnegie Study on Battery
Production Pollution. Does anyone have any information on this article or
the lead pollution topic. I was confronted with this issue by an
anti-ev'er
and would like to have the facts.
Ben
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384.html
Lead-acid batteries are considered a major recycling success story.
I didn't find the exact article you were looking for but a quick search
turned up these:
http://www.batterycouncil.org/recycling.html
http://www.exide.co.nz/recycling.htm
http://www.ibpstl.com/brind.htm
http://www.fleetwatch.co.za/magazines/july02/59-envirotoyota.htm
These should give you some ammo against the EV naysayers :^D
P.S. I searched on Google for "lead-acid recycling success story", there is
more out there to be found.
Roy LeMeur Seattle WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informational Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All you need to do is show him where the money came from for that study.
All from big oil.
- Will
Will Beckett
Contact information (https://ecardfile.com/id/will_beckett)
Become a member or donate to the Electric Auto Association, donations are
tax deductible. http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of GreenVW
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 3:18 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: lead pollution
I recall reading an article which disputed the Carnegie Study on Battery
Production Pollution. Does anyone have any information on this article or
the lead pollution topic. I was confronted with this issue by an anti-ev'er
and would like to have the facts. Ben
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the center of gravity was real low it might be safe. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 2:35 PM
Subject: RE: How a simple electric vehicle limits speed and ammeter limits.
> Jerry,
>
> Get the speed up to 45 (really 45) with a 300lb rider and I'll buy it.
>
> Make a nice little runabout for me. Too many of the roads around my house
> are 55mph limit and have minumums of 45.
>
> James
>
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
>
> Phil Connors: Can I talk to you about a matter that is not work-related?
> Rita: You never talk about work.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of jerry dycus
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 5:25 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: How a simple electric vehicle limits speed and ammeter
> limits.
>
>
> Hi Seth, Lawrence and All,
> Interesting you all brought this up. Just today
> I sawed up 90 lbs of sq tube, angle steel to make a
> trike from a golf cart transaxle with the same motor
> as yours.
> The front end is from a Honda Elite motorcycle,
> I wish it was more heavy duty but it will only be
> going 40 mph so should work. All the parts were
> hanging around and I needed to get rid of a lot in my
> spring cleaning so was already thinking of doing it.
>
> As luck would have a welder friend wanted my
> 14hp B+S propane power cement floor grinder that
> didn't work and I needed to get rid of so killed 4
> birds with 1 stone with him doing the welding, steel
> work for the grinder. So I get rid of 3 things and get
> a nice little e-trike runabout out of the deal, cool!!
> Sure beats junk piles!!!
> Batts will be 4 or 5 used gp31 Dynasty batts
> depending on how fast it goes. Stock resistor control
> for now so total costs will be about $250 including
> the $40 inspection fee, $20 tag fee and used batts.
> Ah, the joy of a nice juck pile!!
> I'll probably sell it to raise money for the
> Freedom EV project.
> I don't see the motor going much faster than 40
> mph without overheating and about all the brakes will
> handle either. In a hilly area like Frisco maybe a
> lower top speed so there is enough power to handle the
> hills. It would be a great little city runabout.
> 300 amp meter sounds about right for the motor
> as much more will burn the motor up.
> Mine has a 6-1 rear end ratio and will be using
> 12/13" trailer rims, the lightess I could find and the
> bolt pattern fit perfectly as it is a standard wheel
> size. The transaxle came fron a very old EZ-Go from
> the 60's that the frame rusted out.
> Frames to make these are complicated but this
> one seems fairly good.
> If you want to go 40 mph you will need to go to
> 12/13" tires and/or high voltage pack.
> I hear most GC rears are 8-1 ratio make sure to
> check yours out.
> jerry dycus
> --- Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > sounds like a golf cart motor... the highest
> > current I've ever seen on
> > my 36 volt cart was about 220 amps, which was going
> > up an extreme
> > incline. your buggy will probably weigh more than
> > my cart, and your
> > motor may be a bit bigger. I can't say for sure,
> > but I think a 300 amp
> > meter is probably just about perfect. Your 'current
> > limit' at top
> > speed depends mostly on the motor's internal
> > resistance (dependent on
> > RPM) and the system voltage.
> >
> > Seth
> >
> >
> > On Monday, January 27, 2003, at 12:34 PM, Lawrence
> > Rhodes wrote:
> >
> > > I have a GE 5BC48JB141. 2HP. 36V. A52 3300
> > RPM. I am assuming
> > > that it
> > > is speed limited simply by the voltage. (My A89
> > powered Lectra with a
> > > 1204
> > > won't draw any more current on the level at 40 mph
> > no matter how much
> > > I cram
> > > the throttle. Unless I hit a hill it won't go
> > faster or draw more
> > > current.)
> > > It is a simple contactor controller. Rise or lower
> > the voltage and it
> > > goes
> > > faster or slower. I am thinking though there is
> > only a current limit
> > > at top
> > > speed on level ground no wind. With a hill or
> > wind the current will
> > > go up
> > > quite a bit. Does anybody know what a GE motor
> > like this will draw up
> > > a
> > > hill. Will there be spikes while going through the
> > contractors &
> > > resistor.
> > > I wanted to use a 300 amp ammeter but I am
> > thinking that may not be
> > > enough
> > > when hill climbing. Just going to use 6 Trojan or
> > simular batteries.
> > > Lawrence Rhodes....
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> >
> > http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In California if you keep the speed to 30mph and it is under a certain
> weight you register as a moped and have a one time registration with a
> license plate. Doesn't sound like you would want to go faster than 30
with
> the thing anyway. Lawrence Rhodes............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 2:24 PM
> Subject: Re: How a simple electric vehicle limits speed and ammeter
limits.
>
>
> > Hi Seth, Lawrence and All,
> > Interesting you all brought this up. Just today
> > I sawed up 90 lbs of sq tube, angle steel to make a
> > trike from a golf cart transaxle with the same motor
> > as yours.
> > The front end is from a Honda Elite motorcycle,
> > I wish it was more heavy duty but it will only be
> > going 40 mph so should work. All the parts were
> > hanging around and I needed to get rid of a lot in my
> > spring cleaning so was already thinking of doing it.
> >
> > As luck would have a welder friend wanted my
> > 14hp B+S propane power cement floor grinder that
> > didn't work and I needed to get rid of so killed 4
> > birds with 1 stone with him doing the welding, steel
> > work for the grinder. So I get rid of 3 things and get
> > a nice little e-trike runabout out of the deal, cool!!
> > Sure beats junk piles!!!
> > Batts will be 4 or 5 used gp31 Dynasty batts
> > depending on how fast it goes. Stock resistor control
> > for now so total costs will be about $250 including
> > the $40 inspection fee, $20 tag fee and used batts.
> > Ah, the joy of a nice juck pile!!
> > I'll probably sell it to raise money for the
> > Freedom EV project.
> > I don't see the motor going much faster than 40
> > mph without overheating and about all the brakes will
> > handle either. In a hilly area like Frisco maybe a
> > lower top speed so there is enough power to handle the
> > hills. It would be a great little city runabout.
> > 300 amp meter sounds about right for the motor
> > as much more will burn the motor up.
> > Mine has a 6-1 rear end ratio and will be using
> > 12/13" trailer rims, the lightess I could find and the
> > bolt pattern fit perfectly as it is a standard wheel
> > size. The transaxle came fron a very old EZ-Go from
> > the 60's that the frame rusted out.
> > Frames to make these are complicated but this
> > one seems fairly good.
> > If you want to go 40 mph you will need to go to
> > 12/13" tires and/or high voltage pack.
> > I hear most GC rears are 8-1 ratio make sure to
> > check yours out.
> > jerry dycus
> > --- Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > sounds like a golf cart motor... the highest
> > > current I've ever seen on
> > > my 36 volt cart was about 220 amps, which was going
> > > up an extreme
> > > incline. your buggy will probably weigh more than
> > > my cart, and your
> > > motor may be a bit bigger. I can't say for sure,
> > > but I think a 300 amp
> > > meter is probably just about perfect. Your 'current
> > > limit' at top
> > > speed depends mostly on the motor's internal
> > > resistance (dependent on
> > > RPM) and the system voltage.
> > >
> > > Seth
> > >
> > >
> > > On Monday, January 27, 2003, at 12:34 PM, Lawrence
> > > Rhodes wrote:
> > >
> > > > I have a GE 5BC48JB141. 2HP. 36V. A52 3300
> > > RPM. I am assuming
> > > > that it
> > > > is speed limited simply by the voltage. (My A89
> > > powered Lectra with a
> > > > 1204
> > > > won't draw any more current on the level at 40 mph
> > > no matter how much
> > > > I cram
> > > > the throttle. Unless I hit a hill it won't go
> > > faster or draw more
> > > > current.)
> > > > It is a simple contactor controller. Rise or lower
> > > the voltage and it
> > > > goes
> > > > faster or slower. I am thinking though there is
> > > only a current limit
> > > > at top
> > > > speed on level ground no wind. With a hill or
> > > wind the current will
> > > > go up
> > > > quite a bit. Does anybody know what a GE motor
> > > like this will draw up
> > > > a
> > > > hill. Will there be spikes while going through the
> > > contractors &
> > > > resistor.
> > > > I wanted to use a 300 amp ammeter but I am
> > > thinking that may not be
> > > > enough
> > > > when hill climbing. Just going to use 6 Trojan or
> > > simular batteries.
> > > > Lawrence Rhodes....
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> > >
> > > http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
> > > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/387.html
> > >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I recall reading an article which disputed the Carnegie Study on Battery
> Production Pollution. Does anyone have any information on this article or
> the lead pollution topic. I was confronted with this issue by an
anti-ev'er
> and would like to have the facts.
> Ben
> > http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/384.html
Ben,
Why bother! Do you think this person is really interested in rational
discourse on the EV issue. He probably just wants to feel better about his
SUV.
Mike Pengelly
Phoenix, AZ
'90 Mustang EV
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was driving to work last Friday morning and noticed a pronounced sag
in the pack voltage just as I was cresting the last hill on my route.
I eased up on the pedal as much as I could without getting run over and
then more-or-less coasted the rest of the way to work.
When I left work that evening I planned on taking the 'easy' route
home, but still had to get on the freeway for a mile or so. Just as
I merged into traffic I heard a loud BANG, seemingly from the front
of the car. I was trying to decide if that was caused from a rock
getting kicked up or not when I heard a second loud BANG.
When I pulled over to check things out, there was no smoke or odor
in the engine compartment and I couldn't see anything under the car.
I didn't have enough light to get a good look at the motor to see if
maybe there was a problem there. The pack voltage didn't seem too
unusual, just a couple of volts lower than normal for this point in
my commute.
I continued driving carefully on the back streets and made it home
with the pack still showing about 117 volts (120v nominal). Again,
this is not an unusual voltage after taking about 70ah from the 100ah
NiCad pack. Since I didn't know what was wrong with the car I didn't
put it on the charger that evening.
The next morning I popped open the front battery boxes and didn't
see or smell anything wrong. The motor brushes looked normal. The
controller looked fine as well.
Not finding anything up front I opened up the rear battery box.
Hmmm... What are these funny brown discolorations? What's that
crater in that module? Why does that other module have a split case?
The loud BANGs were from the rear battery box. It appears that two
of the modules had become out of balance with the rest of the pack
and either reversed a cell or just overheated. I'm assuming that
when the cell finally melted the battery case and the electrolyte
(potassium hydroxide) came in contact with the aluminum box, it gave
off hydrogen, which then exploded. Twice. (A third module also
overheated and leaked, but didn't explode.)
Photos are online at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/prizm/noBMS.html
If I had a battery manager/monitor of some sort I would have noticed
the problem with less drama. My battery management system project
just became much more important!
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate writes:
>
> With long NiCad strings, is there need for active balancing (like lead
> acids), or does the regular 15% overcharge keep them all happy?
I don't know about active balancing, but you need a battery monitoring
system of some sort. See my posting today "When NiCads go boom", or go
directly to my web page at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/prizm/noBMS.html
to see what can happen when flooded NiCads get out of balance.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, John and all,
It was some interest to see how a single motor will perform in a
truck towing 10,000 lb trailer. Earlier I sent out a link to the
results page, but didn't get a single comment on the list; not
even sure my email got on the list.
Anyway, the truck will perform just fine. Quick summary:
The max incline the truck will handle (Empty truck):
1st gear - 18.98� (32.52% grade)
2nd gear - 9.198� (15.95% grade)
3rd gear - 4.632� (8.075% grade)
4th gear - 2.549� (4.447% grade)
5th gear - 1.731� (3.02% grade)
0-50 km/h (31 MPH) is about 8 seconds,
0-80 km/h (50 MPH) - 16 sec
max speed is 143 km/h (89.4 MPH)
Loaded truck with the trailer (7,943 kg = 17,475 lb total):
1st gear - 7.612� (13.25% grade)
2nd gear - 3.485� (6.079% grade)
3rd gear - 1.519� (2.651% grade)
4th gear - 0.8178� (1.427% grade)
5th gear - 0.2631� (0.4592% grade)
0-50 km/h (31 mph) is 15 sec
0-80 km/h (50 mph) is 39 seconds
max speed it will reach, is 120 km/h (70 MPH),
Now, on 1� incline (1.745 % grade), still 17,475 lb total:
0-30 MPH 19 sec,
0-50 mph 65 sec,
max speed 85 km/h (53 MPH) but in 3 min has to be reduced to
55 km/h, or 34.4 MPH
2� = 3.49 % grade:
0-30 MPH 28 sec,
0-50 mph 65 sec,
max speed 70 mph (43.75) but again in 3 min has to be reduced to
55 km/h, or 34.4 MPH
Now, tough test - 3� = 5.234% grade, still 17,475 lb total weight.
0-40 km/h (25 mph) in 20 sec
max - 52 km/h (32.5 MPH) up hill for as long as your battery can
handle it. For more details - go here:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/ford_sim.htm
Peter, how does it compare to a single motor DC setup of your choice?
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:08 PM 1/27/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
It was some interest to see how a single motor will perform in a
truck towing 10,000 lb trailer. Earlier I sent out a link to the
results page, but didn't get a single comment on the list; not
even sure my email got on the list.
Made it, but I've been really busy today.
Actually, those numbers look pretty good!
Did you also get an estimate for KWH/mile for range calculations?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, it's on the site.
Empty truck - 42.7 miles @ 50 MPH, 47.5 miles for US06 cycles.
Excerpt from the site:
Power represents air drag (thus is 0 at zero speed) and energy
represents the rolling resistance multiplied by power divided by time.
In this case, for instance it
will take 27 kW to run at constant speed of 80 km/h (50 MPH) and you
consume 335 Wh/km (536 Wh/mile) at that speed. This can be taken as
an estimate of the range - with about 23 kWh on board
(35 useable Ah per Optima, 70 Ah per pair, * 327V average
voltage = 22,890 Wh) the range will be 22,890/536=42.7 miles @ 50 MPH.
This number is just for reference - no one in real life drives at
50 MPH until the pack is dead (10.5V/battery under load).
Loaded truck (10,000 lb trailer, no incline) - 18.8 miles:
To move at 50 MPH it will demand 45 kW of battery power and spend
650 Wh/km or 1,040 Wh/mile. Don't plan to go very far, you have
about 30Ah Optimas now, or 19,620 Wh on board, so you better stop
and recharge after 19,620/1040=18.8 miles.
To see the range on incline I need to know the speed.
Plots are on the web. I must admit as far as the AC system goes,
the results are quite impressive. And as expected, the battery is
your main limitation.
Victor
John Lussmyer wrote:
>
> At 06:08 PM 1/27/2003 -0800, Victor Tikhonov stated:
> >It was some interest to see how a single motor will perform in a
> >truck towing 10,000 lb trailer. Earlier I sent out a link to the
> >results page, but didn't get a single comment on the list; not
> >even sure my email got on the list.
>
> Made it, but I've been really busy today.
> Actually, those numbers look pretty good!
> Did you also get an estimate for KWH/mile for range calculations?
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um, am I missing something or are we way off here?
Coefficient as I understand it is the ratio of drag to weight on the wheel.
Therefore, assuming you figure the weight of the combined vehicle, and
that that weight is never put to the ground more than once, it really
doesn't matter how many tires there are. Each tire has some share of the
load, and the ones with higher load will produce more drag. Except for non
linear effects of tires, you can pretend the whole trailer and truck is
one item on one tire and come up with the same result.
You've been hanging around too many engineers. :^)
The "non-linear" effects of tires hammer you. The number of
spinning tires makes a big difference in rolling resistance. That is why
the winning solar cars almost always have just three wheels. It is also
part of the reason that many big trucks lift an axle when they are
unloaded. (They get better fuel economy, reduce tire wear, and pay lower
tolls.)
To top it off, spinning mass hits you twice on acceleration and
deceleration. You have to accelerate the wheel linearly, and you also have
to accelerate it rotationally. This hurts you on efficiency during stop and
go driving, even if you have regen (although it isn't as bad.)
You aren't often wrong Otmar. I think this is the first time I've
caught you anyway. :^)
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Lussmyer wrote:
> Made it, but I've been really busy today.
> Actually, those numbers look pretty good!
> Did you also get an estimate for KWH/mile for range calculations?
Sure, I did all the homework for you :-)
Unloaded:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/5135_28x2_3443kg_0deg_energy.jpg
Loaded, 0 deg:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/5135_28x2_7943kg_0deg_energy.jpg
Loaded, 1 deg:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/5135_28x2_7943kg_1deg_energy.jpg
Loaded, 2 deg:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/5135_28x2_7943kg_2deg_energy.jpg
Loaded, 3 deg:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/5135_28x2_7943kg_3deg_energy.jpg
Again, degrees, not US grade%.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
>
> To top it off, spinning mass hits you twice on acceleration and
> deceleration. You have to accelerate the wheel linearly, and you also have
> to accelerate it rotationally. This hurts you on efficiency during stop and
> go driving, even if you have regen (although it isn't as bad.)
Nevertheless, in my simulation I factored in acceleration of spinning
mass (moment of inertia). For non-drag race application, the impact
indeed is minimal.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> you don't need a PFC charger when going from DC to DC, do you?
Rich Rudman wrote:
> You clearly do if your target is at a higher voltage than your source.
No; the conventional way would be with a boost converter. And, the power
factor correction circuitry would only get in the way of the operation
of a DC/DC converter.
However, it would be more straightforward to choose your dump pack
voltage so it is always above your car's pack voltage (so you could use
a buck converter, i.e. normal PWM motor controller). Or, you could
choose your dump pack voltage so it is always lower than your car's
pack, and use a boost converter (less common, but found in high power
switching power supplies).
> The control gear to do a controlled Dump charge..... NO over charge,
> no under charge, is not trivial.
Why is it any different than any other charger? The only difference is
that the power source is DC, not AC.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My EV friend Tom and I have been making a kind of dump charger using a buck
converter set up . We are not seeing eye to eye on the setup , he wants to
keep the frequency low 2k ( less transistor stress ?) and I want to go
high 15k (as to get as much inductance from the coil) , He wants to go
smaller with the coil (less resistance ) I want to go bigger ( more
inductance) , I want to hook up current limiting (which is on the chip we're
using LM3524) he say we will do it by hand (pot on duty cycle). We are
feeding this thing with rectified 240 and a big cap . and to my surprise it
has been working (somewhat but the smoke keeps getting out) . I visit Tom
once a week and we try it out on my car at that time. So 2 weeks ago I went
in the Porsche with the battery mix (10 golf carts , 2 parallel 31's , and 4
no names ups) . It's really a mobile battery tester with rod sock connectors
on the test batteries . I can watch the ah meter and a volt meter on the bat
being tested and pull it out of line when it gets low (then label the ah of
tested bat) . Even though I don't agree with Tom's design ideas It has been
me that lets the smoke out of the parts more than him . So I get there
with the 2 parallel 31 out of line and I'm hooking them back up for charging
and get distracted and leave one line off. so the pack is broken in the
middle. Tom is hooking up the charger for another test and turns it on and
nothing. turns it up still no amps into the bats. Then smoke comes pouring
out of my Todd DC/DC converter, This wasn't fet smoke but thick heavy smoke
. It didn't take long to figure out what happened (dc/dc converter was the
only load on the charger) . Now here is the funny thing . I hooked up the
connector on the one battery that split the pack and the DC/DC converter
still worked! (don't even know why I tried it out) . When I got home (yes
it even ran the lights)I opened it up and found a blown 200v cap with the
top gone . I think 1/2 the bridge was blown and the AC plug which I plug
into the pack got switch as when I repluged it at home I had more sparks . I
replaced the bridge and the cap and it works fine or just the same as after
the smoke came out :-) .
Back to coils. I don't know how to ball park the size of the toroide or
how many raps of wire but I am thinking we are way under size (3in od and 20
raps ) . I have a scope but not sure what to look for ,coil saturation?
Trying different coils I've noticed that on some the wire gets hot and on
others the toroid gets hot . I've also read were over 500watts they use a
full bridge setup for DC/DC converters. . The LM3524 has two out puts (we
are using one so %50 max duty cycle) so it could be used for a push pull set
up. I'd like to keep it simple and as Tom would say "wat's the problem it
works" .
Even with golf cart bats I think 50 to 75 amp is all that's needed under
normal (non racing) circumstances as the bats will fill up quickly and
keeping the voltage under 14.25v will mean tapering off from any thing
higher pretty quick.
Steve Clunn
P.S. yes all ic's and fets were blown on the charger that day also.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Dump charger with manners (was RE: 20 minute charge to 80%)
> Should have been clearer, my comment just meant that you didn't need the
> PFC portion of the charger. At least I can't see why you would need it.
>
> All you really need is the big honkin DC-DC converter portion (and the
> brains) which aught to be a little easier and cheaper without the PFC
> front end.
> Actually this sounds like a job for a reconfigured controller. If you
> had an external blower on your mototr you could use the field coil as an
> inductor (and yes I realize this is far from an original idea)
>
> Of course if you want the same charger to do double duty for DC dump and
> AC charging then yeah you might as well get the PFC.
>
> On Mon, 2003-01-27 at 11:54, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > >
> > > Besides which you don't need a PFC charger when going from DC to DC,
do
> > > you?
> > >
> > You clearly do if your target is at a higher voltage than your source.
> > The control gear to do a controlled Dump charge..... NO over charge, no
> > under charge, Is not trivial.
> > You have to plan the state of charge on the dump pack and the reciever
> > pack or your contactor controlled dump charger will break something.
> > As few have found out... doing well thought out dump charge IS about the
> > fastest way to fill 'em up. If you have not done your home work, it is
> > the fastest way
> > to blow up your battery pack and other expensive gear.
> >
> > The Dump pack concept is why Rod and CO destroyed 4 strings of JC
> > inspiras, and Why Wayland and Co hurt the Hawkers. But hey it's racing!!
> > I don't want to know where the peak battery volts goes when you dump
> > pack. I bet a LOT of regulators have bitten the dust durning dump
> > charges.
> >
> > Maybe that's why both teams are Regulator less for racing. And why they
> > are a lot slower than they should be.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > www.manzanitamicro.com
> > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> >
> --
> EVDL
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I am interested, I think. is it still available?
Seth
Ken Olum wrote:
>
> A guy in my town put a note on my Rabbit conversion saying that he has
> a 1983 Rabbit with a broken automatic transmission that he might be
> willing to part with cheaply if someone has an interest in converting
> it or using it for parts. He says it is an excellent condition -- I
> haven't seen it myself. He didn't name a price, but he mainly seemed
> interested in finding it a good home.
>
> If you're interested, call him directly: John at 781-784-5262
>
> Also I have an Interstate U1450 battery (same as U.S. EV-145) with a
> melted post. About 1/4" of the post is left. It has about 100 cycles
> on it, but it's probably somewhat sulfated by now, because I've been
> letting it sit around in the cold. You can have it for free if you
> pick it up in Sharon, MA.
>
> Ken
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
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--- Begin Message ---
I wonder what a Capstone turbine costs? I has to be a darn site lighter
the a diesel and it puts out 30Kw's and is clean burning. Still needs a
pretty big vehicle like a bus, or maybe a F-350 or other Dually. Maybe
that's the answer to the heavy trailer. :-)
At 12:39 PM 1/27/2003, you wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
<snip>
Just for those that don't know..... the above mentioned Norvik pulse
charger, comes on a semi truck trailer with a attached GMC 6-71 Diesel
Gen Set, This is in the $250K level of charger. Not many were made.
At 25Kw and up, charging system start showing up in Rack mount
hardware, and have 500- 1000 lbs input transformers.
<snip>
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
I am back from my west coast tour, and I met up with a few EVers in the
greater Las Vegas area. I saw his car, and a few others. We stopped by a
shop that did some Curtiss controller hot-rodding. Richard Frurniss
might be able to get you the name, it was a lot of names to remember
that day.
Seth
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> Looking for a decent 64 V controller ( 1209B?) that is good for 400 amps or
> so and for another project a charger that is able to be automatically limited
> to 8.5 amps @120 V DC output. Anyone have something like this to sell/trade,
> please contact me. David Chapman.
--
vze3v25q@verizondotnet
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--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> So now I'm getting curious as to some miles-traveled-per-day for
> members on the list. COME ON, let's have some war stories!
My EVs have all been built for relatively short range. I've almost
always lived within 5 miles of work, so a typical day's drive is only
around 10 miles.
The most I think I've driven in a single day is about 80 miles with my
old ComutaVan. It had a range of 25-50 miles on a charge, depending on
how fast I drove. But I had a 40-amp charger at home, which could get it
up to 80% SOC in a couple hours. One day I drove it down to a plastics
place to pick up a new hood for it, and back home (total about 40
miles). I charged it back up in the afternoon, and then drove to a
friend's (another 20 miles) for the evening. I got in a little 120vac
opportunity charging while I was there, and then drove back home (20
more miles) for a total of about 80 miles that day.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Ralph,
That's nasty looking NiCd's. Sorry for their demise.
I guess I've been lucky abusing my SAFT STM-180's
in my golf cart (same batteries that are in the 5k lb TEVan).
I'm very interested in hearing your analysis on their demise.
I've discharged my NiCd's into reversal several times in the
golf cart (OK, the kid's left the keyswitch or lights on, but
they where taken into the 'negative' voltage range).
They still work fine in the golf cart, but it doesn't draw very
high currents. They are better cared for in the TEVan, but I don't
plan on installing battery monitering in this vehicle (lazy? to many
other obligations? or just to secure in their previous performance).
I still have 15 or so STM-180's laying around the garage in various
states of discharge, but they always seem to come back with plenty
of power. I hope I never have to use lead acid, I'll kill them quickly
(or get smart and take care of them :-)
Rod
Ralph Merwin wrote:
I was driving to work last Friday morning and noticed a pronounced sag
in the pack voltage just as I was cresting the last hill on my route.
I eased up on the pedal as much as I could without getting run over and
then more-or-less coasted the rest of the way to work.
When I left work that evening I planned on taking the 'easy' route
home, but still had to get on the freeway for a mile or so. Just as
I merged into traffic I heard a loud BANG, seemingly from the front
of the car. I was trying to decide if that was caused from a rock
getting kicked up or not when I heard a second loud BANG.
When I pulled over to check things out, there was no smoke or odor
in the engine compartment and I couldn't see anything under the car.
I didn't have enough light to get a good look at the motor to see if
maybe there was a problem there. The pack voltage didn't seem too
unusual, just a couple of volts lower than normal for this point in
my commute.
I continued driving carefully on the back streets and made it home
with the pack still showing about 117 volts (120v nominal). Again,
this is not an unusual voltage after taking about 70ah from the 100ah
NiCad pack. Since I didn't know what was wrong with the car I didn't
put it on the charger that evening.
The next morning I popped open the front battery boxes and didn't
see or smell anything wrong. The motor brushes looked normal. The
controller looked fine as well.
Not finding anything up front I opened up the rear battery box.
Hmmm... What are these funny brown discolorations? What's that
crater in that module? Why does that other module have a split case?
The loud BANGs were from the rear battery box. It appears that two
of the modules had become out of balance with the rest of the pack
and either reversed a cell or just overheated. I'm assuming that
when the cell finally melted the battery case and the electrolyte
(potassium hydroxide) came in contact with the aluminum box, it gave
off hydrogen, which then exploded. Twice. (A third module also
overheated and leaked, but didn't explode.)
Photos are online at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/prizm/noBMS.html
If I had a battery manager/monitor of some sort I would have noticed
the problem with less drama. My battery management system project
just became much more important!
Ralph
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor,
I liked the flow diagram. What did you use to create it?
Rod
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Peter, John and all,
It was some interest to see how a single motor will perform in a
truck towing 10,000 lb trailer. Earlier I sent out a link to the
results page, but didn't get a single comment on the list; not
even sure my email got on the list.
Anyway, the truck will perform just fine. Quick summary:
The max incline the truck will handle (Empty truck):
1st gear - 18.98� (32.52% grade)
2nd gear - 9.198� (15.95% grade)
3rd gear - 4.632� (8.075% grade)
4th gear - 2.549� (4.447% grade)
5th gear - 1.731� (3.02% grade)
0-50 km/h (31 MPH) is about 8 seconds,
0-80 km/h (50 MPH) - 16 sec
max speed is 143 km/h (89.4 MPH)
Loaded truck with the trailer (7,943 kg = 17,475 lb total):
1st gear - 7.612� (13.25% grade)
2nd gear - 3.485� (6.079% grade)
3rd gear - 1.519� (2.651% grade)
4th gear - 0.8178� (1.427% grade)
5th gear - 0.2631� (0.4592% grade)
0-50 km/h (31 mph) is 15 sec
0-80 km/h (50 mph) is 39 seconds
max speed it will reach, is 120 km/h (70 MPH),
Now, on 1� incline (1.745 % grade), still 17,475 lb total:
0-30 MPH 19 sec,
0-50 mph 65 sec,
max speed 85 km/h (53 MPH) but in 3 min has to be reduced to
55 km/h, or 34.4 MPH
2� = 3.49 % grade:
0-30 MPH 28 sec,
0-50 mph 65 sec,
max speed 70 mph (43.75) but again in 3 min has to be reduced to
55 km/h, or 34.4 MPH
Now, tough test - 3� = 5.234% grade, still 17,475 lb total weight.
0-40 km/h (25 mph) in 20 sec
max - 52 km/h (32.5 MPH) up hill for as long as your battery can
handle it. For more details - go here:
http://www.metricmind.com/misc/ford/ford_sim.htm
Peter, how does it compare to a single motor DC setup of your choice?
Victor
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--- Begin Message ---
As I remember you couldn't plug in at work , now you can ? I know that's
nice. Yes the "value of an EV is in direct proportion to the charger" but
you have to have a place to plug it in . When somebody ask me about cutting
there grass I right away ask about plugging in . Its a good way to start
talking about EV's. Wouldn't it be nice to tell your employer you can't work
for them unless you have easy access to a plug. With the set up I have in
my work truck (to big transformers) if I can get to a 240 plug I can pump in
40 amp easy . allot of the water pumps are on 240 but have small brakers so
I go for the dyer outlet if possible.
I got half way through you post and though maybe John W. had posted a
new story, looked through the e-mail and found nothing ;-( .So I came
and finished reading yours , trying to figure how I got short changed .
ahhhh what is PDX.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:18 AM
Subject: Fun with EV's
> Hi John;
>
> Cool story! I can almost hear the tires do the Smoke thing, smell it.
> It's great to see the Meanie come out of " State" and do it's
transportation
> thing, of course a tip of the hat to Rich for the PFC -20, or is it 50,
that
> gives life to the Meanie. Have always argued that the value of the EV is
in
> direct proportion to it's charger. Yur as good as your charger. The Meanie
> has met it's match, in chargers. Makes yur day when yu find a hot outlet
out
> there than ya can sip some amps. THAT'S the frustrating thing in EVing
> everywhere. It would be so easy to have the streets awash, in 120 AND 240
> range plugs , a simple way to do it would be to offer businesses tax
breaks
> to them to provide them. Why should Tom, my guy down at Killingworth True
> Value hardware, good people, put out an outlet? He duz, anyhow, and I use
> it, but he is just being nice. He should get a tax break, or something He
> likes my EV, has gotten the guided tour and ride. Meanie would sure be
more
> inpressive, but Rabbbit's the only game in town, so it impresses with it's
> silky glide and takeoffs in 4th. no tire smoke, it just goes. Maybe Out
> West, advertising an outlet draws in EV biz? Enough out there to make a
> differance?
>
> Started running the Rabbit, yesterday. We had some tropical weather, up
> in the 30's, so I changed the LS CV joint. Pleasenty found that I could
slip
> it out, by pulling the tranny shifting bar, so I didn't hafta take the
> whole@#$% suspension apart, at the lower ball joint, so I was done in an
> hour. Mostly spent getting the rounded axle NUT off. Socket just SNAP, and
> pops off! Bummer, when yur standing on the breaker bar. With me, maybe 260
> lbs Foot Pounds of torque. The way I tighten them! I was in reach of my
> actheletelene torch, the Brass Wrench, so heated it up til it gave, with a
> inch size socket hammered on. I hear you crindging, but ya gotta do what
it
> takes! The nut gave, dug it out of the socket and wong it out across the
> slumbering CT meadow. Dust to dust, an all that shit! A new nut came wuith
> the "new" rebilt axle. Oh JOY!
>
> Put it all together, EVen to the silly little VW hubcap, turned the
amps
> up on the Rapture and went for a spin. I found a good way to try out CV
> joints; find some ice patches, put one wheel on it, yank up on the
handbrake
> and spin the wheel away, while yur turning the steering wheel back an
forth,
> listening for the clank clank. THEN do the other side. Yul find it that
way,
> but they are strange. Yu can ring it out that way, trundle off down the
> road, in clouds of contentment thinking Oh it wasn't the CV joint, then
all
> of a suddon, " Clank clank clank, or a wheel wrenching Bang bang, like it
> was gunna tear the stearing wheel out of yur hands. It's been fine EVer
> since, an' anyhow the rubber boot was split anyhow, so it was over due. I
> didn't SEE it was when it was in service. So, crap was chewing up the CV
> joint, an' I didn't know it.
>
> OK I'm gunna take it to work today, sunny, in the 30's hit it with the
> Blue Box charger, a few hours and away we go! The car hasn't run for about
a
> month, the Rapture controller problem, got it back a weak ago, and had put
> it back in the car, doing short bursts, round town, on the frozen
batteries.
> Haz been below 30 for weeks! Down in the teens EVery day, knocks the shit
> out of my range, but I can live with it, as I can plug in at Amtrak. Made
it
> to work, with plenty of juiceleft! Plugged in the variac, turned her up to
> 15 amps and walked away. Train , of COURSE was late, it always is when I
> make a date to meet somebody, a friend ,for dinner. So I came back, about
> half hour later, cranked it up to 15 again, and when I got back, about 3
AM,
> it was, like summer, nice an' juicy! Down to about 4-5 amps. Yeah! Not as
> slick as the PFC series, but it works for me.
>
> Snowing like hell, had been intown, so I knew we would have it in CT
too.
> It's amazing the climatic weather change from NYC to CT. Ya start out
> underground in Penn Station, out to the wilds of CT. Ya open the door or
> window of yur cozy EV, AEM-7 loco, in New Haven,and are assaulted by
blasts
> of fridged air, like yu just pulled in to Siberia! What! In 75 mile
flight,
> ya think? Finally get back to the car, turn on the electric ceramic heat
and
> dust a few inches of snow off, as the defroster duz its thing. in a few
> minutes it's warmed up, to cozy, from the gusty blowing snow. Roll up the
> chords an' drive away. Of course the car is QUIET! Tiptoeing through the
> relatively unplowed snow. I chose the backroads, two laners, which I had
to
> myself. Wish yu were here to enjoy gliding through the snowswept night.
> Gusty winds, wafting the snow across the roads. Passing a Bank's outside
> temp gage 16 degreez! Ya know it was windy, but in a million pound rabbit,
> it doesn't effect it, any more that training through it an hour ago in a
> lightweight 110 ton Loco. Ya sorta feel safe an' secure, at about 35-40
> gliding along. Yeah Need more heat, as the faster yu go the less heat yu
> get. . But it sure is better than NO heat! Becides, I hava pair of driving
> gloves, anyhow. The EV power can be applied so smoothly, I thought, just
for
> fun, take a very steep shortcut home, thinking i can back down, if it
> wouldn't. It didn't care, in second, went rite up the unplowed snowcovered
> ramplike steep hill. Had to try to spin the wheels. My Nokeans like snow,
I
> guess? I put my foot in it a few times and the wheels, both brake loose
and
> spin, of course the car starts to drift out of stearing control! So yu
don't
> do it long. made it home with plenty of juice left, gratifying as the
> batteries came out of their hiatus, willing to do their thing, but I sure
> want to go with something, Evercells or LiOns or SOMETHING in different to
> cold weather. Til then I can sorta live with 1440 lbs of lead, for now
> ,great for traction in the snow! But we gotta do better, I don't think
that
> Its ready for Joe Sixpack just yet, although the care an' feeding of the
> Rabbit wouldn't be a hassle to anybody handy enough to run a Home
> Entertaimnment Centre or a computer, for that matter. Look at all the
stick
> shift carz still running around out there. THEY take a bit of cordination,
> to make work, on the part of their pilots.
>
> Anyhow, that's a bit of life EV'wise in frozen CT. Spring is only 2
> months away, Think Woodburn, or WhEVer we end up at this summer? It's a
> balmy 18 degrees out now! Ah POO! But I'll run the Rabbit today, I think.
In
> the nice things about it. The sky is a beautiful rich BLUE, sun shining,
so
> clean looking outside, too bad it is so unpleasent out! You just don't see
> the crap in the air like in the summer.Optical disalusion, or something
like
> that.
>
> Seeya, through the gusting snow
>
> Bob
> >
> Hi All;
>
> Had to include this tire an' heart warming EVenture, share it
> along.enjoy!! I did. From John, in PDX.
>
> (snip)
>
> > I had called Marko at the metal shop, to see if he wanted to go get a
> burger together. He
> > instantly jumped at the chance for a bit of fun, a break away from the
> drudgery of the
> > metal shop these days (I'll need to go more into detail on this in
another
> post). He asked
> >
> > if I minded if Tom came along...Tom is about 35 or so and has owned
> tricked out 1200's in
> > his youth, so he was excited to ride in not only his first electric car,
> but to ride in an
> >
> > electric 1200!
> >
> > With three of us piled into my little econo car from yesteryear, I
turned
> north on 82nd
> > Ave., selected 2nd gear, punched the accelerator, and simply blistered
the
> right rear
> > tire, much to Tom's 'GEESHHH' delight. I drove pretty aggressively and
> took the car
> > crisply up to 60 mph in probably 7 seconds or so with three full sized
> dudes in on
> > board...Tom was absolutely blown away.
> >
> > We arrived at a classic old burger joint called 'Jim Dandy' and pulled
> into a spot. When I
> >
> > got out, I was surprised to see a beautiful pair of outdoor outlets
> complete with GFI's
> > and clear plastic flip up covers, right near the parking space I was in.
> We had driven
> > about 6 miles and the car had sipped away just 5.6 ahrs from the pack,
so
> it wasn't
> > anywhere close to being tired, but to freak Tom out even more and
without
> hesitation and
> > acting like I had expected the outlets to be there, I used the car's
> remote control, hit
> > button #4 and released the trunk latch, grabbed the twist lock-to-120VAC
> adapter and the
> > 25 ft. bright yellow power cord, and plugged in the car! I popped the
hood
> and had Marko
> > twist down the charger's current control so that the Meanie wouldn't pop
> the burger
> > joint's breakers, then we went in to dine on delicious old fashioned
type
> burgers, fries,
> > and refreshing ice cold root beers....mmmmm! While we sat and looked out
> the window, the
> > EV was attracting a small crowd of gawkers...the yellow power cord is in
> stark contrast to
> >
> > the deep blue paint, and so it screams, "HEY, I'm plugged in!!!"
> >
> > With our bellies full, we unplugged, piled back in, and took off back to
> the metal shop.
> > This time, I showed Tom the awesome torque power of an electric motor,
by
> pointing out
> > that the car was in 4th gear and that I would not touch the
clutch...then,
> thanks to the
> > ballsy DCP 1200 amp controller and that stump puller 9 inch ADC, we
simply
> motored away
> > onto the street, and with about a halfway-down pressing of the
accelerator
> pedal, we
> > pulled smartly up to the speed limit...Tom was again, stunned.
> >
> > At the shop, he and Marko got out, we said our goodbyes, and with the
> front tires turned
> > and the car on an incline in the parking lot, I mashed the GO pedal down
> and did a
> > righteous smoke show! Tom's mouth hung open and Marko just shook his
head
> as if to say,
> > "There goes Wayland again". I let off the throttle at the street
entrance,
> first looked
> > around for cops, then turned left while in 3rd gear from a dead stop. It
> had rained
> > yesterday, but today it's sunny and dry again, so the streets have just
a
> hint of wetness
> > on them in places....this was ideal for a 'See Ya tire ignition
> sequence.'....I could see
> > in my rear view mirror that Tom hadn't gotten enough yet and that he and
> Marko were
> > watching to see if the tires would be punished some more....yup!....I
> hammered down the
> > pedal and the tires both spun wildly with a very satisfying constant
> squeal that lasted
> > for an entire block, leaving a good cloud of smoke in my wake.
> >
> > I got back to the Wayland EV Juice Bar with just 15.4 ahrs gone from the
> pack and a
> > healthy 160V reading on the Emeter, twisted the PFC20's current knob all
> the way up (as it
> >
> > usually is), and plugged into the 240VAC supply. By the time I get done
> typing this to
> > you, the Meanie will be topped off and ready to rock again.
> >
> > See Ya........John
> >
> > A nice winter blah's fighting story!
> >
>
>
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